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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#3426
Dean_the_Young

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The distinction between rights and privileges does not easily apply to the society of Thedas, since there doesn't seem to be a ubiquitous code or common law to provide the necessary context. Thedas isn't governed, by and large--it is ruled. Authority and power are one and the same, so the individual (like Flemeth) who has the power to defy the the zealots of the Chantry has the right to live free of their oppression.

 

The threat of demonic possession is obviously real, but I think it is dramatically exaggerated by the Chantry in order to spread the belief that they, and the Circle system they impose, are necessary and indispensable. If you look at societies outside of the Chantry's grasp, the abomination-fueled chaos you might expect to find simply doesn't exist. The Chasind's shamans, the Dalish keepers, the seers of Rivain, and hedge mages everywhere do not seem to pose the threat that the Chantry insists that apostates represent, despite the fact that these mages live more-or-less as free as any other member of their society.

 

Even in Tevinter, where mages not only can basically do as they please but in fact rule the non-mage society, the threat of demonic possession doesn't seem to be any greater than in the lands that fall under the influence of the "white chantry." 

 

Clearly, the assertion that it is necessary to lock mages away in towers to prevent them from becoming possessed is a load of crap. 

 

Actually, the distinction between rights and privileges in Thedas is easy: there are no inherent rights as western liberalism understands them. Thedas is a pre-liberalism society, and inalienable human rights do not exist and probably never will because key underpinning foundations and assumptions of our reality do not apply.

 

If you were to go to Thedas, and say to a mage 'I side with you because all people are created fundamentally equal,' they would probably look at you funny. In Thedas, this is manifestly not true- some people are born with superpowers, some people are born without superpowers, some people are  born with a resistance to superpowers but are unable to reach the top shelf. The closest philosophical underpinning of universal commonality* is religious in nature: that we are all equal in the sight of the infinitely superior divine. This is also, it's worth noting, the only major religious interpretation to put mages and non-mages on the same level: the other major religions interpret magic as a gift from the divine, separates mages apart and above the non-mages by receiving such a gift.

 

*Well, besides the Qun's 'we are all parts of the body', but that's even more alien to western liberalism.

 

 

There is an extreme lack of data about abomination occurrences, and claims that they are either greater or fewer in Tevinter (or the Rivian, or the Dalish) are all equally baseless and serve only to reflect the bias and desire of the claimer. The only thing we can say about abominations in Tevinter is that there aren't enough that they are perceived to threaten the social order- which means jack squat about the occurance, because the social order of Tevinter is an oligarchy entrenched with fear and blood magic. If abominations were more common to harm the commoners... how would you know? The mages, who are the political powers that matter, are the best protected and prepared to defend themselves, and the least affected. If it happens amongst commoners, they're commoners. And if it happens to a rival, it's a rival. Higher abomination costs, so long as they don't reach catastrophic levels, would matter less to Tevinter society than low abomination costs to a more empathetic society.

 

A greater acceptance of costs (such as Rivian witches and Seers being compared by a Dev to natural disasters) is not the same as a lack of costs. The Dalish accept their style of society despite knowing that clans go missing, and that the occassional Seeker-turned-abomination can be responsible for it. Their acceptance of it is completely separate from whether they would have more or fewer casualties by adopting an Andrastian system.

 

 

Part of what the Circle system is designed to do is shift and contain the costs of mages, politically (to prevent mage domination) and practically (abomination). In a mage-integrated system, the costs of the abomination are born by everyone around them, and that means mundanes. It might be everyone in the clan being expected to pick a bow, hunt the abomination, and hope they overcome it. It might  be a Rivian witch earning that analogy of natural disaster. And it might just be Tevinter plebes hoping that to be alive when Tevinter Templars and Mages contain and kill the abomination after it's rampage has gone for some time. In the Circle system, even when a tower full of mages goes abomination, it's distant news and rumor that barely affects the mundanes because the problem is quickly contained and isolated from them. The actual deathcount could be the same, but the distribution would differ. The Circle system doesn't promise to prevent abominations and hostile mages from occurring, but rather limit their impacts on the public by containment.

 

 

But the other part of what the Circle system is designed to do is prevent mage costs against the public from becoming an accepted and uncontroversial part of their societies in the first part. The idea that accepting the costs of mages, both as abominations and as natural leaders of society (as they rise in all the non-Andrastian societies), is unnecessary and need not be accepted at all.

 

In this respect, Andrastians are far closer to the views that, say, some Europeans (or anti-gun advocates in general) have on gun violence in the US. Their fears may seem comically exagerated at times (I knew someone who refused to visit New York for fear of getting caught in a gang shoot out), even though they can also point to statistics that would support their claims that the gun violence is unnecessary in the first place. Plenty of societies get along without gun rights, and with crime and murders/deaths per capita than in America. The simple acceptance that most Americans have for gun crimes and gun rights strikes them as morally abhorrent, as if you say nothing wrong with beating a wife or child while drunk. They don't have the gun rights, and they see no reason to have them even if, in the fullness of time, they would survive adopting them, and might eventually come to share the acceptance.

 

 

This is not to say mages are directly analogous to guns- that's a different issue, and try not to get distracted. This is to say that Andrastian society is a culture that has escaped a certain level of cost tolerance others have accepted, and that they do not see a compelling reason why they should accept such changes to benefit a small minority that will gain at their expense, and quite likely rise over them as such acceptance is required.


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#3427
Dean_the_Young

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Hey, Thedas has to start sometime. My characters are bridge builders, and that bridge is called Equality.  B)

 

Here's a completely legitimate, non-mocking question for you: what sort of equality do you propose to present?

 

Equality is, after all, a word with many different connotations to many different people. It doesn't mean just one thing, even when you start putting adjectives with it. Will your form of equality imply economic equality? That all will be equally wealthy? Or that all will have equal opportunities to wealth? Will equality before the law mean that everyone has the same standing, or the same resources in type and quality? Will political equality mean universal sufferage, or the destruction of hierarchies?

 

Moreover, what will be your philosophical underpinning of how they are all equal? In what sense is a mage the same as a dwarf is the same as an elf is the same as a qunari? What sort of common identifier will you use?

 

The Andrastians use the idea of a universal placement in the eyes of the Maker.The Qunari use the idea of a single philosophy and social body. Pretty much everyone else doesn't even bother with universalism.



#3428
renfrees

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Hey, Thedas has to start sometime. My characters are bridge builders, and that bridge is called Equality.  B)

The day people become equal is the day a sentient life on Thedas dies.



#3429
Dean_the_Young

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I think Rhys's source is personal experience and what he's seen growing up in the Circle and being controlled by the Chantry his whole life, since the templars took him from his mother's arms the moment he was born.

 

What in this sentence makes you think Rhys is an objective source? Just in my first reading of it I counted five reasons why this would not be considered authoritative assessment.

 

 

As for the lack of history, we had Meredith's essential seizure of power in Kirkwall, and even before then we had templar extremists getting promoted over more moderate ones. Thrask says Kerras was one of Meredith's cronies and she'd consider him justified slaughtering all the mages if they hadn't surrendered before he arrived. Cullen's codex says he was promoted to Knight-Captain because his views matched hers and she hoped he'd influence all the other templars. Ser Mettin was running a death squad with Meredith's blessing.

 

 

Which establishes... Kirkwall as a place where the Circles were getting worse. But where does Kirkwall make the norm, considering explicit dev comments to the contrary?

 

 

And there were no Seekers investigating the templars considerable overreach of power.

 

 

This is actually an interesting and under-discussed topic that deserves to be it's own divergence.

 

What sanctioned Templar actions in DA2 by Meredith and the Templars constituted an overreach of the Templars' powers?

 

 

At first I thought that Kirkwall was just an anomaly until Asunder came out. Then I saw that Lambert had seized control of the templars, used his experiences in Tevinter to shape his role as the head of the Seekers, got too involved with the mages and spent more time being a templar than a seeker. How he ordered Evangeline to make sure no evidence existed that tranquility was curable, wanted to murder the proof that was Pharamond, Rhys and Wynne as witnesses, and nearly threw a hissy fit when the meeting with the Divine didn't go his way. 

 

 

What, pray tell, does this have to do with the norms of the other Circles? A lack of Templar oversight just means the Templars doing what they want- it doesn't tell what the Templars want, and arguing that they were only previously kept in line by effective oversight requires oodles of additional support.

 

 

I suppose I simply got the overrall impression that Lambert had been pushing for more and more power for the templars and the seekers, and the lack of templar oversight is a relatively recent thing. 

 

 

Impressions are fine, but what supports this? Where outside of Kirkwall (which had its own political context to justify increased Templar power and autonomy) do we have evidence that Templars have become more oppressive in nature? On what time frame?



#3430
The Baconer

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This is actually an interesting and under-discussed topic that deserves to be it's own divergence.

 

What sanctioned Templar actions in DA2 by Meredith and the Templars constituted an overreach of the Templars' powers?

 

Usurpation of power. But that's all I can think of right now as far as 'sanctioned' goes.

 

If the Seekers were to investigate the conditions at the Kirkwall Circle it would probably be over the issue of incompetence.


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#3431
Dean_the_Young

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Usurpation of power. But that's all I can think of right now as far as 'sanctioned' goes.

 

If the Seekers were to investigate the conditions at the Kirkwall Circle it would probably be over the issue of incompetence.

 

Where, exactly, did Meredith commit an unjustified usurpation?

 

Before Hawke arrives, we have the overthrow of the last Viscount... but the last Viscount was trying to throw out the Templars (and possibly the Chantry), and prevent them from fulfilling their role. After the execution of her predecessor, Meredith established a Viscount who was more amiable toward the Chantry's system.

 

Was that an usurpation? More importantly, was that one Meredith would be penalized for?

 

 

The next premise comes after the Qunari Invasion... but that was filling a power vacuum created by the machinations of others. Power was not usurped because power was not present in the first place.

 

True, once she had it Meredith didn't let go... but wasn't she using it in line with a legitimate mission and goals? Cracking down on the smugglers entering the Circle and the mage underground? A very real mage underground, and blood mages acting in the city?

 

 

Incompetence is an easy charge to throw around, and harder to justify. Even a situation deteriorating isn't proof of the favorite charge of the dissatisfied. The critical factor would be if Meredith had been carrying out policies that were unjustified, as opposed to simply disliked.



#3432
Hanako Ikezawa

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Here's a completely legitimate, non-mocking question for you: what sort of equality do you propose to present?

 

Equality is, after all, a word with many different connotations to many different people. It doesn't mean just one thing, even when you start putting adjectives with it. Will your form of equality imply economic equality? That all will be equally wealthy? Or that all will have equal opportunities to wealth? Will equality before the law mean that everyone has the same standing, or the same resources in type and quality? Will political equality mean universal sufferage, or the destruction of hierarchies?

 

Moreover, what will be your philosophical underpinning of how they are all equal? In what sense is a mage the same as a dwarf is the same as an elf is the same as a qunari? What sort of common identifier will you use?

 

The Andrastians use the idea of a universal placement in the eyes of the Maker.The Qunari use the idea of a single philosophy and social body. Pretty much everyone else doesn't even bother with universalism.

Econonic equality will sadly never work large scale. Equal distribution of wealth may work small scale like in villages or towns but when applied on a national scale, well we only need to look at our own history to show how well that went. However, equal opportunities to wealth should exist. Just because someone is an elf shouldn't mean they can't get a position a human can, for example. 

 

Equality for the law is interesting. I would think that the more access to power you have, the more laws to constrain to you equal levels as those who don't have powers. It's like how if you own a weapon, you have laws stacked onto laws to account for that added power you possess. And of course if one is arrested, they should be tried for what they did, not who they are.

 

Political equality will be one of the hardest to do, but like in our own history simply putting checks and balances for the uppers by the lowers will help stop the uppers from having an unfair amount of power. 

 

I would use as a common identifier as basically any race that is sentient and sapient should be treated as equals. Though again for the mages case, since they possess more power than they should get more restrictions on said power.



#3433
Hanako Ikezawa

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The day people become equal is the day a sentient life on Thedas dies.

Why? 



#3434
Hanako Ikezawa

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Where, exactly, did Meredith commit an unjustified usurpation?

 

Before Hawke arrives, we have the overthrow of the last Viscount... but the last Viscount was trying to throw out the Templars (and possibly the Chantry), and prevent them from fulfilling their role. After the execution of her predecessor, Meredith established a Viscount who was more amiable toward the Chantry's system.

 

Was that an usurpation? More importantly, was that one Meredith would be penalized for?

 

 

The next premise comes after the Qunari Invasion... but that was filling a power vacuum created by the machinations of others. Power was not usurped because power was not present in the first place.

 

True, once she had it Meredith didn't let go... but wasn't she using it in line with a legitimate mission and goals? Cracking down on the smugglers entering the Circle and the mage underground? A very real mage underground, and blood mages acting in the city?

 

 

Incompetence is an easy charge to throw around, and harder to justify. Even a situation deteriorating isn't proof of the favorite charge of the dissatisfied. The critical factor would be if Meredith had been carrying out policies that were unjustified, as opposed to simply disliked.

Meredith overstepped her bounds when she denied the nobility of Kirkwall to elect a new Viscount. Just like how the Viscount can't interfere with Chantry affairs, the Chantry shouldn't be able to interfere in national affairs. Classic separation of Church and State. 


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#3435
The Baconer

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True, once she had it Meredith didn't let go... but wasn't she using it in line with a legitimate mission and goals?

 

No. Kirkwall is a sovereign state, not an extension of the Chantry or Orlais. And given how ineffective she was in her leadership even prior to Act 3, I'm even more skeptical of her ability to govern the entire city-state.



#3436
EmperorSahlertz

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You know how many hundred of years had to pass before curch and state was seperated?



#3437
Hanako Ikezawa

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You know how many hundred of years had to pass before curch and state was seperated?

On Earth, several. However on Thedas it has already happened, at least to an extent where one can't oust control of an area from the other.



#3438
Dean_the_Young

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Meredith overstepped her bounds when she denied the nobility of Kirkwall to elect a new Viscount. Just like how the Viscount can't interfere with Chantry affairs, the Chantry shouldn't be able to interfere in national affairs. Classic separation of Church and State. 

 

You're confusing what you'd desire with what is. The Chantry absolutely can interfere in national affairs, especially when foul magic is in the air (so to speak). Which, in Kirkwall, it was.

 

The Andrastian nations have long since ceeded powers on the mage issues to the Chantry and Circle system.



#3439
Dean_the_Young

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Econonic equality will sadly never work large scale. Equal distribution of wealth may work small scale like in villages or towns but when applied on a national scale, well we only need to look at our own history to show how well that went. However, equal opportunities to wealth should exist. Just because someone is an elf shouldn't mean they can't get a position a human can, for example. 

 

Equality for the law is interesting. I would think that the more access to power you have, the more laws to constrain to you equal levels as those who don't have powers. It's like how if you own a weapon, you have laws stacked onto laws to account for that added power you possess. And of course if one is arrested, they should be tried for what they did, not who they are.

 

Political equality will be one of the hardest to do, but like in our own history simply putting checks and balances for the uppers by the lowers will help stop the uppers from having an unfair amount of power. 

 

I would use as a common identifier as basically any race that is sentient and sapient should be treated as equals. Though again for the mages case, since they possess more power than they should get more restrictions on said power.

 

So, bascially, when you promise equality for everyone you're promising economic imbalance, litigatious imbalance, political imbalance, and an openly Orwellian doublethink of racial equality.

 

Why on earth would anyone in Thedas believe in your promise of equality?



#3440
Hanako Ikezawa

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You're confusing what you'd desire with what is. The Chantry absolutely can interfere in national affairs, especially when foul magic is in the air (so to speak). Which, in Kirkwall, it was.

 

The Andrastian nations have long since ceeded powers on the mage issues to the Chantry and Circle system.

I hardly see what threat a Viscount would pose to her authority in that regard, though. I mean, the second tyo last one tried and was ousted in rebellion, and the last one left the Mage affair completely up to Meredith. So the viscount would either be like the former or even be cooperative to the situation by seeing the threat the apostates posed. 



#3441
Dean_the_Young

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No. Kirkwall is a sovereign state, not an extension of the Chantry or Orlais.

 

What does this have to do with the Templars pursuing legitimate goals and targets?
 

 

And given how ineffective she was in her leadership even prior to Act 3, I'm even more skeptical of her ability to govern the entire city-state.

 

How are we defining ineffective? Not being ejected from the region? Being key in resolving a Qunari invasion? Shutting down the lyrium smuggling and much of the mage underground? Reducing the corruption in the Templars to letting mages bribe their way to stay out of the circles?

 

Or rather, how are we defining ineffective? What would a 'competent' leader have succeeded in doing that Meredith, by virtue of incompetence, failed at? What with the professional agitators at play and all.



#3442
EmperorSahlertz

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On Earth, several. However on Thedas it has already happened, at least to an extent where one can't oust control of an area from the other.

Exactly what are you basing this off of? The Grand Cleric in Ferelden gets a vote in the Landsmeet, obviously church and state is not seperated.



#3443
Hanako Ikezawa

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So, bascially, when you promise equality for everyone you're promising economic imbalance, litigatious imbalance, political imbalance, and an openly Orwellian doublethink of racial equality.

 

Why on earth would anyone in Thedas believe in your promise of equality?

No, I'm proposing babysteps to ends that will actually happen. I'm not foolish or naive enough to believe there will ever be true econimic or political equality that works on such large scales. And the rest is racial equality both for the four current races plus any that introduce themselves in later dates. Perhaps I should have said tolerance instead? Or is that impossible and impractical to strive for as well? As for the litigious imbalance, how so? Those with more power need more restrictions on said powers? Isn't that what the system the Circle does though mine goes to a lesser extent?

 

 

But now it is my turn. How would you solve all these inequality problems?



#3444
Hanako Ikezawa

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Exactly what are you basing this off of? The Grand Cleric in Ferelden gets a vote in the Landsmeet, obviously church and state is not seperated.

Where does it say the Grand Cleric gets a vote in the Landsmeet? Elemana doesn't vote, but rather her voice sways some of the nobles who do.


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#3445
Xilizhra

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Equality of outcome between mages and nonmages is not, as of yet, possible because of differences in capability. As such, the best way to solve this would require a massive supernatural change that would return magic to everyone, preferably in a gradual state that wouldn't cause too much chaos... but, in any case, we probably can't control that.

 

Regarding the things we can control, the crux of the matter is that mages require protection from demons, who can make them a threat to both themselves and others. So some level of monitoring and, for the more vulnerable, guarding, will be required. However, aside from monetary and territorial reasons in the present time, there's no reason why the Chantry should be the one in charge. Its framework might be required to build up a new system, depending on how the war goes (although I personally hope the Inquisition will be able to do that), but the Circle of Magi should be able to manage its own affairs, and include its own international governing body that can manage multiple Circles at once, as well as handle things like the state of the lyrium trade.



#3446
Dean_the_Young

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I hardly see what threat a Viscount would pose to her authority in that regard, though. I mean, the second tyo last one tried and was ousted in rebellion, and the last one left the Mage affair completely up to Meredith. So the viscount would either be like the former or even be cooperative to the situation by seeing the threat the apostates posed. 

 

Think in terms of the Templar perspective of achieving their goals.

 

The last Viscount didn't oppose Meredith openly, but was also beholden to the local interests that were obstructive to the Templars. He was torn between the many factions, and thus impotent and was unable to resist or assist. The Viscount before that was actively antagonistic, and the fact that he was willing and able to try is more important than the fact that Meredith succeeded in overthrowing him.

 

In short, in the last decades the city's elite have been useless, or worse than useless, in advancing the Templar interests of cracking down in the corruption that allows mages to gain shelter in the city (like the entire Hawke family). Another Viscount would be a crapshoot: possibly good, possibly useless, possibly actively detrimental, and still going to be tied to the interests of the various interests of the city. Which, in many respects, is a recipie for paralysis and more corruption.

 

Taking power personally is the more effective way to ensure your interests are the primary ones taken into account, rather than counting on the gratitude of another (a short-lived arrangement if there was one). The utility isn't really in question- rather, can taking power be used to try and resolve legitimate problems. Considering the naked corruption of the city for mages (the crux of Act 1 and much of Act 2), and the increase of Tevinter mage agitators, problems were already aplenty.



#3447
Xilizhra

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Think in terms of the Templar perspective of achieving their goals.

 

The last Viscount didn't oppose Meredith openly, but was also beholden to the local interests that were obstructive to the Templars. He was torn between the many factions, and thus impotent and was unable to resist or assist. The Viscount before that was actively antagonistic, and the fact that he was willing and able to try is more important than the fact that Meredith succeeded in overthrowing him.

 

In short, in the last decades the city's elite have been useless, or worse than useless, in advancing the Templar interests of cracking down in the corruption that allows mages to gain shelter in the city (like the entire Hawke family). Another Viscount would be a crapshoot: possibly good, possibly useless, possibly actively detrimental, and still going to be tied to the interests of the various interests of the city. Which, in many respects, is a recipie for paralysis and more corruption.

 

Taking power personally is the more effective way to ensure your interests are the primary ones taken into account, rather than counting on the gratitude of another (a short-lived arrangement if there was one). The utility isn't really in question- rather, can taking power be used to try and resolve legitimate problems. Considering the naked corruption of the city for mages (the crux of Act 1 and much of Act 2), and the increase of Tevinter mage agitators, problems were already aplenty.

I'll agree. Meredith was not incompetent in advancing the interests of the templars.

 

Of course, it'd be in the interest of both templars and mages if the entire Kirkwall Circle was shut down and moved to a city that wasn't a Hellmouth.


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#3448
The Baconer

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What does this have to do with the Templars pursuing legitimate goals and targets?

 

What do legitimate goals and targets have to do with stonewalling the nobility?

 

 

How are we defining ineffective? Not being ejected from the region? Being key in resolving a Qunari invasion? Shutting down the lyrium smuggling and much of the mage underground? Reducing the corruption in the Templars to letting mages bribe their way to stay out of the circles?

 

Or rather, how are we defining ineffective? What would a 'competent' leader have succeeded in doing that Meredith, by virtue of incompetence, failed at? What with the professional agitators at play and all.

 

The city being swarmed with escaped mages and maleficar (including a gang run by blood mages operating in Hightown, after Meredith assumed the de-facto position of Viscount)? Templar duties being outsourced to third parties? A group of Templars abusing the rite of Tranquility under her nose, while simultaneously another insubordinate group plots to overthrow her? An entire unit of Templars found dead in the Chantry, along with the body of mage-turned-Tranquil despite passing their harrowing, with no explanation?

 

She should have been strung up right beside Orsino, each serving as an example to their successors.



#3449
Steelcan

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I'm increasingly of the opinion that DA2 should not be referenced when talking about the actions of templars/mages

 

 

there's something in the water there


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#3450
Grieving Natashina

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I'd be fine with evacuating all of Kirkwall and just destroying the entire city.  Salt the earth so nothing shall ever grow there again (just to be thorough) and kiss that cursed place good bye forever.

 

 

I'm increasingly of the opinion that DA2 should not be referenced when talking about the actions of templars/mages

 

 

there's something in the water there

 

No doubt good sir.


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