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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#3451
Xilizhra

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What do legitimate goals and targets have to do with stonewalling the nobility?

Because it's in the interest of the templars to take over Kirkwall and slowly grind out everything they view as corruption. Although there was already a noble conspiracy growing to take out Meredith, and a pro-mage Hawke may well have been able to exploit the growing resentment to an extent great enough for Kirkwall to develop a popular revolt against templar rule, which actually would be far worse for the templars than what actually happened.

 


I'm increasingly of the opinion that DA2 should not be referenced when talking about the actions of templars/mages

 

 

there's something in the water there

Not only are the streets themselves effectively built of evil, it's also in the radius of Corypheus' corruption.


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#3452
Hanako Ikezawa

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I'm increasingly of the opinion that DA2 should not be referenced when talking about the actions of templars/mages

 

 

there's something in the water there

I have to agree with you. Using the city where the devs said were to "show the worst of both parties" doesn't seem fair to said parties.


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#3453
Xilizhra

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I have to agree with you. Using the city where the devs said were to "show the worst of both parties" doesn't seem fair to said parties.

Thankfully, Ferelden and Orlais provide plenty of material on their own.



#3454
Steelcan

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Christ, Xil and Hanako are agreeing with me, you know something is wrong when that happens


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#3455
Hanako Ikezawa

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Christ, Xil and Hanako are agreeing with me, you know something is wrong when that happens

Hey, we agree on a few things.  :(



#3456
Hanako Ikezawa

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Thankfully, Ferelden and Orlais provide plenty of material on their own.

Indeed. Both good and bad for both parties there.



#3457
Xilizhra

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Indeed. Both good and bad for both parties there.

True enough. In Ferelden, there was Cullen before he went crazy, and in Orlais, there was Evangeline before she left the Order.



#3458
Steelcan

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Hey, we agree on a few things.  :(

 

Like on.... Destroy is the best ending.... and..... help me out here



#3459
Dean_the_Young

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No, I'm proposing babysteps to ends that will actually happen. I'm not foolish or naive enough to believe there will ever be true econimic or political equality that works on such large scales. And the rest is racial equality both for the four current races plus any that introduce themselves in later dates. Perhaps I should have said tolerance instead? Or is that impossible and impractical to strive for as well? As for the litigious imbalance, how so? Those with more power need more restrictions on said powers? Isn't that what the system the Circle does though mine goes to a lesser extent?

 

 

But now it is my turn. How would you solve all these inequality problems?

 

I wouldn't.

 

Or rather, I wouldn't make a banner and campaign based around western liberalism in a setting with no foundation for western liberalism. Instead, building a philosophical foundation that is friendly to supporting later liberalism would be far more enduring. 'How to live a life' philosophies, such as Confucianism or Stoicism, in many respects lay the groundworks for later more sophisticated political ideologies. Starting a philosophy that can spread across the major factions would be better than chasing the idea of anachronistic enlightenment.

 

If I have to create something new rather than take something from real life (like Clnfucianism), I'd advocate an idea of a philosophy based on the premise of Legacy: what you will be remembered for leaving behind after you death. Flexible enough to reward and encourage ambition and endeavor (famous enough to be remembered), it would focus on later consequences and results of current actions, with approval for legacies that benefit and inspire future generations: philanthropists, nation-builders, philosophers, and so on. The emphasis on what future generations would remember you for would be a positive impetus for more visionary, or at least more kindly remembered, actions and policies by those alive.

 

This is a premise flexible enough to be adopted by pretty much everyone: Tevinter Magistrates with an Ego, xeno-nationalist Elves with an eye for reclaiming the glory of the dales as their legacy for future generations, devout or not-so devout Andrastians, mages looking to leave a history of progress of success rather than reckless ambition, etc. Different groups might take it in different ways (there's more than enough leeway for corruption), but spreading the idea of forward-thinking progress to the benefit of future generations, regardless of your personal group or class or race, can create a universalist foundation that could, one day in the far future, but the basis of western liberalism-like reforms and developments.

 

Of course, creating a philosophy is hard. But for a society with political stature of Thedas, it's a needed development for enduring cultural change.



#3460
Grieving Natashina

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Christ, Xil and Hanako are agreeing with me, you know something is wrong when that happens

Wrong would be a great way to describe Kirkwall, for certain.  We all know stupid and cursed when we see it.  ;)



#3461
Hanako Ikezawa

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Like on.... Destroy is the best ending.... and..... help me out here

We agree on a few offtopic things.



#3462
Steelcan

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Wrong would be a great way to describe Kirkwall, for certain.  We all know stupid and cursed when we see it.   ;)

 

Going Roman on it ala Carthage is certainly called for

 

10/10 I approve of your suggestion



#3463
Xilizhra

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Wrong would be a great way to describe Kirkwall, for certain.  We all know stupid and cursed when we see it.   ;)

I meant to start writing a blog once a while back that would include that Kirkwall is an artistic representation of the concepts of chains, both metaphorical and literal, and insanity. And the two frequently overlap.



#3464
renfrees

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Why? 

Because people is never equal by the nature of birth, that's what makes them people. Equality can only be achieved in the world of stamped clones.



#3465
Hanako Ikezawa

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Because people is never equal by the nature of birth, that's what makes them people. Equality can only be achieved in the world of stamped clones.

So...what? We should embrace Social Darwinism with open arms?



#3466
Steelcan

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So...what? We should embrace Social Darwinism with open arms?

 

No, equality for all people should be based on the fact that we are human and deserve to be treated as such, not on notions that everyone is equal

 

 

 

Or I'm misinterpreting his argument



#3467
Hanako Ikezawa

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No, equality for all people should be based on the fact that we are human and deserve to be treated as such, not on notions that everyone is equal

 

 

 

Or I'm misinterpreting his argument

I think this is all a misinterpretation, actually. I think he misunderstood what I meant by equality. I suppose I should have used an easier word, like tolerance or something.



#3468
Dean_the_Young

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What do legitimate goals and targets have to do with stonewalling the nobility?

 

The nobility was a significant obstacle in the resolving of legitimate goals and targets- at the time of Act 1 it's an open secret that status can protect a mage from templars. Not empowering them and empowering yourself instead allows you to overcome such obstacles.

 

 

 

 

The city being swarmed with escaped mages and maleficar (including a gang run by blood mages operating in Hightown, after Meredith assumed the de-facto position of Viscount)? Templar duties being outsourced to third parties? A group of Templars abusing the rite of Tranquility under her nose, while simultaneously another insubordinate group plots to overthrow her? An entire unit of Templars found dead in the Chantry, along with the body of mage-turned-Tranquil despite passing their harrowing, with no explanation?

 

 

You (probably don't) realize you're not actually making an argument of incompetence there, don't you? You're describing a bad situation (and making some assumptions in other cases), but not actually linking it to competence or incompetence. Competent people can be faced with bad situations- especially when outside factors are the most important in a context.

 

Not sure why you say 'under her nose' when the game tells us that those Templars were being careful to cover up the truth. Or where you believe that mages can't be turned Tranquil after their horrowing, when we're told they can if conditions are met (namely punishment and First Enchanter approval).

 

 

 

 

She should have been strung up right beside Orsino, each serving as an example to their successors.

 

The example being 'don't be Knight Commander when Tevinter and other actors try to instigate a mage rebellion'?



#3469
Steelcan

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I meant to start writing a blog once a while back that would include that Kirkwall is an artistic representation of the concepts of chains, both metaphorical and literal, and insanity. And the two frequently overlap.

 

That would certainly be an idea about Kirkwall I could agree with.

 

What is this madness, next I'll be agreeing with Dav Bob from Accounting



#3470
Dean_the_Young

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I think this is all a misinterpretation, actually. I think he misunderstood what I meant by equality. I suppose I should have used an easier word, like tolerance or something.

 

Or, rather, he's making a subtle case for how the people of Thedas would misunderstand what you mean by equality. In a world where accident of birth does dictate your abilities, 'tolerance' would probably be a much greater distinction.

 

Of course, in the world of Thedas 'tolerance' often means 'tolerating other people over me.' Mages tolerating Templars. Mundanes without Termplars tolerating Mages. City Elves tolerating Humans.



#3471
Xilizhra

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That would certainly be an idea about Kirkwall I could agree with.

 

What is this madness, next I'll be agreeing with Dav Bob from Accounting

I do believe, keep in mind, that going by this, the mage ending involves breaking free of Kirkwall and the templar ending involves succumbing to it, trying to use your own chains on the city that is master of them... which is ultimately proven by the fact that even a viscount Hawke is unable to do so and has to flee in abject defeat several years later.



#3472
renfrees

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I think this is all a misinterpretation, actually. I think he misunderstood what I meant by equality. I suppose I should have used an easier word, like tolerance or something.

I understood what you meant, but you should be more careful with terms, when discussing matters like this. I just showed you  :)

 

@Dean: and no, the definition of inequality applies to our world as well. Some are being born with larger lungs, and some are - with faster reaction, some - with better memory etc. People are never equal.


Modifié par renfrees, 05 mars 2014 - 03:46 .


#3473
Steelcan

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I do believe, keep in mind, that going by this, the mage ending involves breaking free of Kirkwall and the templar ending involves succumbing to it, trying to use your own chains on the city that is master of them... which is ultimately proven by the fact that even a viscount Hawke is unable to do so and has to flee in abject defeat several years later.

 

I did side with mages remember.

 

Even I recognize when someone is just being crazy and unreasonable.



#3474
Dean_the_Young

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I'll agree. Meredith was not incompetent in advancing the interests of the templars.

 

Of course, it'd be in the interest of both templars and mages if the entire Kirkwall Circle was shut down and moved to a city that wasn't a Hellmouth.

 

I agree. Granted, it might come at a loss of Templar influence in Kirkwall (having a harder time justifying a presence without a Circle), but that's a sacrifice I'm fine with them making.

 

 

I also like the idea that Circles should be designed as, say, resembling university campus with strict boundaries, with lawns and open-air atriums and flowing water and other ease-inducing designs, rather than repurposed towers and actual jails.



#3475
Hanako Ikezawa

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Or, rather, he's making a subtle case for how the people of Thedas would misunderstand what you mean by equality. In a world where accident of birth does dictate your abilities, 'tolerance' would probably be a much greater distinction.

 

Of course, in the world of Thedas 'tolerance' often means 'tolerating other people over me.' Mages tolerating Templars. Mundanes without Termplars tolerating Mages. City Elves tolerating Humans.

 

 

I understood what you meant, but you should be more careful with terms, when discussing matters like this. I just showed you  :)

 

Sorry about that. I was jumping through threads trying to catch up and I misused a term.  :unsure: