8640 réponses à ce sujet

[durasteel]

The taint is corrupt. Not the city. What he means exactly is ambiguous.

 

“The city! It was supposed to be golden! It was supposed to be ours!”

 

What he says is disjointed, but his meaning is not ambiguous.

[Heimdall]

“The city! It was supposed to be golden! It was supposed to be ours!”
 
What he says is disjointed, but his meaning is not ambiguous.

"It was supposed to be golden!"

Would still apply even if the city blackened upon their arrival. It remains ambiguous.

[EmissaryofLies]

I blame rap music, personally.

[Lulupab]

How many have to die (templars, mages and civilians) before it starts to matter?

 

As many as it takes as long as the number is not too great that number of free mages and those who will live freely in future. It might seem its not moral but just taking a slight look at real life we easily observe that people have done much worse for their people and country and its always justified in those people eyes.

 

The important thing is the chantry and Templars fear another Tevinter yet they rule the mages. Currently nobles are born with royal blood. I don't see why a mage shouldn't be ruler as long as slavery is not involved. I mean imagine a mage family is ruling a country and they are not enslaving anyone in that country. What would be wrong that? Not saying mages should rule by default but being a mage should not stop you from ruling as long as you or your family has earned it.

[wcholcombe]

I'm not 100% against the use of a harrowing-type of initiation for Circle membership, although I think that it should be possible for a Circle to come up with a better way to do it than to dangle the aspirant into fade as bait and see if anything bites (figuratively speaking.) As far as hedge mages going insane, hell... let 'em. My concept leaves them on their own, so they have no protection. If they become a threat, kill 'em. If they become too big a threat, then the Circle (mages and templars both) would go after them under the "protect the kingdom" mandate.

 

If you've lived a while as a hedge mage, maybe healing villagers and livestock and tweaking the weather a little bit for the farmers in exchange for food and sundries, and you realise that you've begun to talk to yourself a little more than you're comfortable with, maybe it's time to join the Circle.

And this is where we are going to have our disagreement; if you just have mages/hedge wizards living out there doing their own thing without any kind of monitoring, than when things go bad they go bad in a hurry.  Pharamond was possessed and trapped inside a pentagram sort of thing and still was able to corrupt and kill an entire town/castle full of people without ever leaving the room he was trapped in.  Pharamond though he had taken steps to protect the people of Adamant and obviously was wrong.  I would rather inconvenience mages by requiring tham to "check-in" at the circle multiple times a year, than have to deal with cleaning up the remains of an entire village after an abomination has already occurred. 

 

I agree it would be great if there was an alternative to the harrowing, but you really can't determine if a mage will  be able to resist temptation without them being exposed to it.  I  find it telling that the Chasind Wilders and Circle use basically the same process for determining this.  I would actually imagine the harrowing that the circle practices started in Tevinter in fact considering the circle system is basically based on the preexisting system in Tevinter.

[Xilizhra]

I agree it would be great if there was an alternative to the harrowing, but you really can't determine if a mage will  be able to resist temptation without them being exposed to it.  I  find it telling that the Chasind Wilders and Circle use basically the same process for determining this.  I would actually imagine the harrowing that the circle practices started in Tevinter in fact considering the circle system is basically based on the preexisting system in Tevinter.

Have another more experienced mage nearby to save them if it starts to go wrong.

[wcholcombe]

Have another more experienced mage nearby to save them if it starts to go wrong.

Maybe I am giving the Mages/wilders/magisters too much credit here, but I would imagine if it was that simple of a step it would have been done or imposed by this point.  We don't know that they haven't tried that, maybe they have found that if you do that it results in a prediliction to possession later, but I would imagine between the groups someone would have tried that by now if it was that simple.

 

Granted, when the chasind do it, the apprentice isn't always killed because of possession, sometimes their master just doesn't like them and slits their throat anyway.

[wcholcombe]

You mean by going into the Fade, like Connor.

 

I guess for the Chantry, that's a waste of Lyrium. They need that to keep their addicts in line. Easier to just cut people down.

As I pointed out, more than just the Chantry/circles practice the Harrowing.

[lil yonce]

And this is where we are going to have our disagreement; if you just have mages/hedge wizards living out there doing their own thing without any kind of monitoring, than when things go bad they go bad in a hurry.  Pharamond was possessed and trapped inside a pentagram sort of thing and still was able to corrupt and kill an entire town/castle full of people without ever leaving the room he was trapped in.  Pharamond though he had taken steps to protect the people of Adamant and obviously was wrong.  I would rather inconvenience mages by requiring tham to "check-in" at the circle multiple times a year, than have to deal with cleaning up the remains of an entire village after an abomination has already occurred. 

 

I agree it would be great if there was an alternative to the harrowing, but you really can't determine if a mage will  be able to resist temptation without them being exposed to it.  I  find it telling that the Chasind Wilders and Circle use basically the same process for determining this.  I would actually imagine the harrowing that the circle practices started in Tevinter in fact considering the circle system is basically based on the preexisting system in Tevinter.

But Pharamond's situation was unique. He was doing secret research at the Divine's request. There were no templars on the site to provide security, and I don't think most circle mages will summon demons in their homes or put their villages at risk for research that can be done safely at a circle.

 

And Xil is right. Have an Enchanter and templar/sentinel present to stop the Harrowing if an apprentice is in danger of failing.

[wcholcombe]

As many as it takes as long as the number is not too great that number of free mages and those who will live freely in future. It might seem its not moral but just taking a slight look at real life we easily observe that people have done much worse for their people and country and its always justified in those people eyes.

 

The important thing is the chantry and Templars fear another Tevinter yet they rule the mages. Currently nobles are born with royal blood. I don't see why a mage shouldn't be ruler as long as slavery is not involved. I mean imagine a mage family is ruling a country and they are not enslaving anyone in that country. What would be wrong that? Not saying mages should rule by default but being a mage should not stop you from ruling as long as you or your family has earned it.

Glad to know you value only one set of lives.  This is what I find hillarious about the two sides in this, of which I am niether.  The pro circle/templars are occussed of being a blood thirsty heartless lot, which granted some of them are when it comes to mages, but the pro-mages for the most part are just as guilty of that designation.  We have references to mass genocide of anyone who is a templar to templar and chantry lives don't matter etc.  It is good to know that both sides are mostly falling off that moral high ground they seek to occupy.

[wcholcombe]

But Pharamond's situation was unique. He was doing secret research at the Divine's request. There were no templars on the site to provide security, and I don't think most circle mages will summon demons in their homes or put their villages at risk for research that can be done safely at a circle.

 

And Xil is right. Have an Enchanter and templar/sentinel present to stop the Harrowing if an apprentice is in danger of failing.

Wilhem disagrees with you, considering he did that exactly.  As do several instances of demon summoning we have witnessed in games and in the novels.

 

replied to Xil already.  If that thought hasn't occured to the different groups that practice a form of harrowing, than something is seriously wrong with this world.

[wcholcombe]

I could imagine the same issue of Lyrium supply posing the same problem for others too.

 

Although maybe not for the Chasind. Not sure how large their population is or their economy. Or if they even have enough mages to worry about. Perhaps it's worth saving them in this context.

Chasind do the harrowing with drakestone as opposed to lyrium. They tie an apprentice to a tree, if he becomes possessed they slit his throat.  All Chasind mages are male.  Any female found to possess magic is tied to an alter and given to Flemeth.  Such girls always dissappear the 1st night they are on the altar.

[lil yonce]

Wilhem disagrees with you, considering he did that exactly.  As do several instances of demon summoning we have witnessed in games and in the novels.

 

replied to Xil already.  If that thought hasn't occured to the different groups that practice a form of harrowing, than something is seriously wrong with this world.

And Wilhem was also doing research that had to be kept secret from the templars and chantry. If he could do it at a circle, I'm sure he would have.

[wcholcombe]

 

Very cool. Didn't know all that. Where is it written?

Saw it on this wiki page.  http://wardensvigil....iki/The_Chasind

 

Don't know much about it, but I have seen it linked to in the past and I think someone said it uses info from the PNP stuff.

[wcholcombe]

And Wilhem was also doing research that had to be kept secret from the templars and chantry. If he could do it at a circle, I'm sure he would have.

Well, considering Wilhem was allowed to merry and live outside the circle-which many in this thread attribute to his connection to Maric-I doubt he was really concerned at all with either the Chantry or the Templars.  Considering he went ahead and did the research without caring about the risk or without help pretty much proves my point.

[Xilizhra]

Maybe I am giving the Mages/wilders/magisters too much credit here, but I would imagine if it was that simple of a step it would have been done or imposed by this point.  We don't know that they haven't tried that, maybe they have found that if you do that it results in a prediliction to possession later, but I would imagine between the groups someone would have tried that by now if it was that simple.

 

Granted, when the chasind do it, the apprentice isn't always killed because of possession, sometimes their master just doesn't like them and slits their throat anyway.

And I'll accept this if we ever receive lore to that effect. Before that, "if it was a good idea, someone would have tried it already" is not a helpful mode of thought for coming up with new solutions.

We can, however, extrapolate that Malcolm Hawke put his children through some sort of Harrowing-like situation, from mageHawke's line in Night Terrors: "I have braved the Fade before." It was not, however, the Harrowing itself, as Bethany's codex entry mentions her taking her "long-delayed Harrowing." After that point, it comes down to whether you think that Malcolm was willing to let his children get possessed and then killed, which I do not.

 

replied to Xil already.  If that thought hasn't occured to the different groups that practice a form of harrowing, than something is seriously wrong with this world.

I personally suspect that the Chantry wants anyone who shows signs of weakness dead, both for its own sake and for bolstering the numbers of voluntary Tranquil.

[The Baconer]

Since when has good leadership meant a lack of internal friction? It's a nice myth, but organizations are hardly so convenient (or cohesive).

 

Nor does internal corruption (which Meredith likewise was restricting- hence the end of the Circle smugglers and the increasing difficulty of corruption to be ignored by the Templars) mean that external difficulties can't be faced.

 

I think Templars orchestrating an escape, destroying phylacteries, and kidnapping a sibling/associate of a well-known noble goes beyond "internal friction". All of which occurred after Meredith took control of the throne. And after she bought her insanity-blade. Combined with the fact that an entire cabal were able to conduct Tranquility in secret implies that she is either unable or unwilling to enforce proper conduct (not that hard to believe considering she abandons her own duties in favor of personal interests during the final quest - a fact that even you have pointed out), or that she is unable to inspire loyalty and any semblance of obedience in her leadership.

 

Oh, you can certainly demand an inquiry- but an inquiry is fact-finding to see if incompetence was to blame for the situation. The answer to that question may simply be 'no': outside actors and local context may explain a situation. The mages resisting in the streets at night can easily be ruled a consequence of Meredith adressing a pre-established permisive corruption: the fighting might go away if she didn't press the issue, but the underlying problem (mages outside the circle able to terrorize the streets) would not be solved.

 

Addressing a pre-established corruption like mages being granted shelter by the people of the city? Is that why known apostates are allowed to operate because of their connection to Hawke? Or potentially, Hawke him/herself? If the nobility are "useless" in this regard in the eyes of the Templars, what does that make Meredith when she extends the same courtesy?

 

Do you have any evidence that there wasn't an inquiry or investigation in the aftermath?
 

We don't know, however, that the person in question never used the rite in situations where said conditions were met. We don't even know if the person in question is the one that a post-massacre investigation would have led to being blamed- that might have fallen to the Templar squad leader killed on the scene.

 

Anders, uh, also kind of killed the witness who could have testified.

 

I'm sure there was an investigation, and what were the results? Were Templars posted at the Chantry? No. Did they bolster their presence in Hightown in order to have a better response to such events like that in the future? No.

 

If Karl's Tranquility was officially sanctioned, why would Anders be left to his devices, despite it being known that he was in contact with Karl? If it wasn't, why is a connection never made when Alrik suggests his Tranquil Solution, seeing how the Templars found in the Chantry were under his command?

 

Indeed. But which assumptions have I made here, as opposed to raised possible alternatives?

 

And what evidence exists that Tevinter was a major player behind the resistance in Kirkwall?

[lil yonce]

Well, considering Wilhem was allowed to merry and live outside the circle-which many in this thread attribute to his connection to Maric-I doubt he was really concerned at all with either the Chantry or the Templars.  Considering he went ahead and did the research without caring about the risk or without help pretty much proves my point.

He was concerned about the Chantry and templars. "All I hope is that the templars do not discover what I am doing. How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?"

 

And his journal entries make it clear he was worried about how safe his experiments weren't. Again, if he could have done them in a circle, I'm sure he would have.

[wcholcombe]

And I'll accept this if we ever receive lore to that effect. Before that, "if it was a good idea, someone would have tried it already" is not a helpful mode of thought for coming up with new solutions.

We can, however, extrapolate that Malcolm Hawke put his children through some sort of Harrowing-like situation, from mageHawke's line in Night Terrors: "I have braved the Fade before." It was not, however, the Harrowing itself, as Bethany's codex entry mentions her taking her "long-delayed Harrowing." After that point, it comes down to whether you think that Malcolm was willing to let his children get possessed and then killed, which I do not.

 

 

 

I personally suspect that the Chantry wants anyone who shows signs of weakness dead, both for its own sake and for bolstering the numbers of voluntary Tranquil.

Ok Xil, on the one hand you dismiss me giving the in game characters credit for having tried such an obvious idea as what you proposed because we haven't seen that indicated, and than in the next sentence you entirely base your belief that Malcolm wouldn't let his children get possessed and killed on the basis of what you think of him, when in reality we know very very little about Malcolm Hawke.

 

And than your predetermined dislike for Chantry again rears its ugly head on the idea that they want to create an army of tranquil.  You do remember that, outside of the utter lunacy of Kirkwall,  it takes agreement from a Grand Enchanter in order to make someone tranquil.

[wcholcombe]

He was concerned about the Chantry and templars. "All I hope is that the templars do not discover what I am doing. How will we ever find another way to deal with demonic possession if the Chantry does not let us research it?"

 

And his journal entries make it clear he was worried about how safe his experiments weren't. Again, if he could have done them in a circle, I'm sure he would have.

And again, he still chose to do the experiments.  He also chose to do the experiment in the basement of his tower in his village where he lived.  Not some remote location that would have protected people.  My whole point was that Wilhem proves that mages would summon demons outside of the chantry.  It wasn't like he was being ordered or compelled to do this research, he did it of his own volition.  The fact that he did it in secret doesn't change that.

[lil yonce]

And again, he still chose to do the experiments.  He also chose to do the experiment in the basement of his tower in his village where he lived.  Not some remote location that would have protected people.  My whole point was that Wilhem proves that mages would summon demons outside of the chantry.  It wasn't like he was being ordered or compelled to do this research, he did it of his own volition.  The fact that he did it in secret doesn't change that.

Mages like Pharamond and Wilhem only do it outside circles because they chantry has silly prohibitions on magic. They're so bad the Divine herself has to work around them in secret. In a reformed Circle of Magi, mages conducting dangerous research outside circle jurisdiction shouldn't be a thing, so mages living outside the circle is not a big deal.