8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Ok Xil, on the one hand you dismiss me giving the in game characters credit for having tried such an obvious idea as what you proposed because we haven't seen that indicated, and than in the next sentence you entirely base your belief that Malcolm wouldn't let his children get possessed and killed on the basis of what you think of him, when in reality we know very very little about Malcolm Hawke.

 

And than your predetermined dislike for Chantry again rears its ugly head on the idea that they want to create an army of tranquil.  You do remember that, outside of the utter lunacy of Kirkwall,  it takes agreement from a Grand Enchanter in order to make someone tranquil.

It's less likely that they haven't thought of it, more likely that they did and prefer to kill those who might be getting possessed for various reasons.

 

And the point was so that they could produce more volunteers. The First Enchanter more or less seems to rubber-stamp those.

[wcholcombe]

Mages like Pharamond and Wilhem only do it outside circles because they chantry has silly prohibitions on magic. They're so bad the Divine herself has to work around them in secret. In a reformed Circle of Magi, mages conducting dangerous research outside circle jurisdiction shouldn't be a thing, so mages living outside the circle is not a big deal.

Really?  You think without circle restrictions hedge wizards or other people won't summon demons?  Thats funny, considering they were summoning demons prior to the existance of the chantry and circle.

 

Again, Pharamond was acting on orders-I understand that.  But Wilhem was doing it becuase he wanted to/could.

[wcholcombe]

It's less likely that they haven't thought of it, more likely that they did and prefer to kill those who might be getting possessed for various reasons.

 

And the point was so that they could produce more volunteers. The First Enchanter more or less seems to rubber-stamp those.

Even if that is true of the Chantry circles, I don't see Tevinter or the Chasind employing that same thought process.

 

Also, I don't see the chantry having a nefarious plut of world domination by making more tranquil.  Its used when it is needed.  the 1st enchanter in Ferelden and Kirkwall fought against RoA, if they aren't strong enough to resist an unecessary tranquility that is on them and their failure.

[Xilizhra]

Even if that is true of the Chantry circles, I don't see Tevinter or the Chasind employing that same thought process.

 

Also, I don't see the chantry having a nefarious plut of world domination by making more tranquil.  Its used when it is needed.  the 1st enchanter in Ferelden and Kirkwall fought against RoA, if they aren't strong enough to resist an unecessary tranquility that is on them and their failure.

"Cull the weak." I can very easily see both Tevinter and the Chasind following that.

 

And it's not a plot for world domination, just for more money (and fewer mages).

[EmissaryofLies]

Have we not been over this?

 

The Chantry is innocent of Templar misbehavior and so are the seekers who supposedly function as their police force. The Chantry simply seeks to help and guide the mages of Thedas. While their views and policies might seem to harsh, it is only for the betterment of mundane kind. It is because they love mages that they expect so much from them.

[Lulupab]

Glad to know you value only one set of lives.  This is what I find hillarious about the two sides in this, of which I am niether.  The pro circle/templars are occussed of being a blood thirsty heartless lot, which granted some of them are when it comes to mages, but the pro-mages for the most part are just as guilty of that designation.  We have references to mass genocide of anyone who is a templar to templar and chantry lives don't matter etc.  It is good to know that both sides are mostly falling off that moral high ground they seek to occupy.

That is the whole point. In a war between nation A and B if you are a member of nation A only the lives of people from A matters. No one can claim otherwise because in every single war that has happened in our history such was the case. Even in the civil wars where there were two factions. I don't want to be the moral perfect character because such person can not exist in reality. Name such person if you dare and get flamed for flaws of named person.

 

I chose a side, like many other did, as simple as that. Its more real and gives a sense of real accomplishment. Would I like to prevent as many death as possible? yes, but inevitably many will die.

[lil yonce]

Really?  You think without circle restrictions hedge wizards or other people won't summon demons?  Thats funny, considering they were summoning demons prior to the existance of the chantry and circle.

 

Again, Pharamond was acting on orders-I understand that.  But Wilhem was doing it becuase he wanted to/could.

This wasn't about hedge mages. This was about trained, full circle mages doing research like a Pharamond or Wilhelm in a new Circle of Magi, and no I don't think they will unauthorized or without proper security. And, generally, I thought hedge mages were left alone by the Chantry because their capacity for magic is often low, so why is their summoning demons suddenly a big deal?

[wcholcombe]

This wasn't about hedge mages. This was about trained, full circle mages doing research like a Pharamond or Wilhelm in a new Circle of Magi, and no I don't think they will unauthorized or without proper security. And, generally, I thought hedge mages were left alone by the Chantry because their capacity for magic is often low, so why is their summoning demons suddenly a big deal?

Actually in my initial response to Durasteel that you responded to, I was speaking specifically to his proposition of allowing hedge mages to do whatever they want.  Hege mages being by his definition any mage who chose not to be a member of a circle.  We were having a prior conversatioin that had a lot of agreement in it, but we didn have our disagreements and that is what I was speaking to.

 

And again, Wilhem already showed that circle mages will.  He was under no compulsion or demand to research demons. He chose to do so.  He could have chosen not to pursue it at all, but he didn't.

[wcholcombe]

That is the whole point. In a war between nation A and B if you are a member of nation A only the lives of people from A matters. No one can claim otherwise because in every single war that has happened in our history such was the case. Even in the civil wars where there were two factions. I don't want to be the moral perfect character because such person can not exist in reality. Name such person if you dare and get flamed for flaws of named person.

 

I chose a side, like many other did, as simple as that. Its more real and gives a sense of real accomplishment. Would I like to prevent as many death as possible? yes, but inevitably many will die.

Actually I choose a side. The middle ground between the insanity of the two groups-which conversely is the one I predict the chantry under Justina will occupy in DAI.  I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the idea that either the mages or the templars are completely right in their views.

[EmissaryofLies]

I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop with the Chantry as it is now.

[lil yonce]

Actually in my initial response to Durasteel that you responded to, I was speaking specifically to his proposition of allowing hedge mages to do whatever they want.  Hege mages being by his definition any mage who chose not to be a member of a circle.  We were having a prior conversatioin that had a lot of agreement in it, but we didn have our disagreements and that is what I was speaking to.

 

And again, Wilhem already showed that circle mages will.  He was under no compulsion or demand to research demons. He chose to do so.  He could have chosen not to pursue it at all, but he didn't.

The point is that if Wilhelm didn't have to hide it from the Chantry and templars, he would have done his research with much better security, and very likely inside a circle. Wilhelm doing research banned by the Chantry in 9:20 Dragon does not mean mages in a new Circle of Magi living outside a circle will summon demons unrestricted in their basements. Its not a good reason to restrict mages to living in circles.

[Hellion Rex]

You know what? Screw the Chantry. Burn it all down!!!!! Let them suffer as the mages have for nearly milennia!

[renfrees]

According to the Chantry, yes.

 

And lets say that they are correct(I have my doubts), does that justify holding it over mages' collective heads forever?

Have you played Legacy DLC? The words from the original magister is not enough?

[renfrees]

He indicated the city was already black when they arrived.

 

"The light. We sought the golden light. You offered... the power of the gods themselves. But it was... black... corrupt. Darkness... ever since. How long?"

 

“The city! It was supposed to be golden! It was supposed to be ours!”

Eh, according to Chantry, the Maker turned city black once magisters stepped into it. So which words of Corypheus contradicts this? Of course he saw it black, he doesn't have the power of prophet.

[EmissaryofLies]

Corypheus? *scoffs* I have dismissed that claim.

 

I've already addressed my reasoning as to why he may or may not be irrefutable proof of what the Chantry claims, that mages are the sole proprietors of the darkspawn. Though it's absolutely irrelevant as it doesn't justify imprisoning and slaughtering some of the mages for nearly a thousand years for something they had absolutely no hand in.

 

On an unrelated note, I hope we can blow up the red templars in Inquistion.

[The Elder King]

Corypheus? *scoffs* I have dismissed that claim.
 
I've already addressed my reasoning as to why he may or may not be irrefutable proof of what the Chantry claims, that mages are the sole proprietors of the darkspawn. Though it's absolutely irrelevant as it doesn't justify imprisoning and slaughtering some of the mages for nearly a thousand years for something they had absolutely no hand in.
 
On an unrelated note, I hope we can blow up the red templars in Inquistion.

I think you'll be forced to blow up red templars.

[Xilizhra]

Actually I choose a side. The middle ground between the insanity of the two groups-which conversely is the one I predict the chantry under Justina will occupy in DAI.  I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the idea that either the mages or the templars are completely right in their views.

Justinia allowed the mages to leave the Chantry and sided against the templars in Asunder, so there's that.

[wcholcombe]

I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop with the Chantry as it is now.

Afraid you will be waiting a long time  Not out of any pro chantry stance here, but the Chantry isn't going anywhere.  From a storyline/narrative point of view it serves no purpose to destroy it or further weaken it.

[wcholcombe]

The point is that if Wilhelm didn't have to hide it from the Chantry and templars, he would have done his research with much better security, and very likely inside a circle. Wilhelm doing research banned by the Chantry in 9:20 Dragon does not mean mages in a new Circle of Magi living outside a circle will summon demons unrestricted in their basements. Its not a good reason to restrict mages to living in circles.

It happens in games it happens in the lore, it happens independent of the chantry.  Again, Wilhem didn't HAVE to summon demons, HE CHOSE TO, and other wizards without Circle oversight- which is what Durasteel and I were discussing-and is what Wilhelm effectively was- will summon demons.  It isn't like mages didn't summon demons prior to the circle's existence.

[Lulupab]

Actually I choose a side. The middle ground between the insanity of the two groups-which conversely is the one I predict the chantry under Justina will occupy in DAI.  I am sorry, but I refuse to accept the idea that either the mages or the templars are completely right in their views.

 

That is a fairy tale not a side. There is only one way Mages and Templars will cooperate and only when something threatens everyone. Something like Qunari Invasion or an enormous blight. Otherwise its not possible. 

[Xilizhra]

Afraid you will be waiting a long time  Not out of any pro chantry stance here, but the Chantry isn't going anywhere.  From a storyline/narrative point of view it serves no purpose to destroy it or further weaken it.

Why's that?

 

 

We can't even get our Warden's actions much persistence or recognition across the last game. Very doubtful that the world is going to turn upside down and account for the whole Chantry being destroyed.

Unless it's destroyed no matter what.