Justinia allowed the mages to leave the Chantry and sided against the templars in Asunder, so there's that.
Yes, but I don't think she is abdicating the complete removal of the circle system, she was favoring the mages in that instance, because there was no way she could get reforms if she supported Lambert.
Why's that?
Unless it's destroyed no matter what.
As I said, the Chantry is too much of a narrative and story tool for Bioware. It has too big of a presence in the world. They aren't going to remove it any more than they are going to remove Orlais, Tevinter, or the Qunari.
It would be interesting what plot would do that and why. It's an entirely new world order. Like it'd have to be the aftermath of something like Mass Effect's reaper invasion.
It would most definitely be interesting.
Yes, but I don't think she is abdicating the complete removal of the circle system, she was favoring the mages in that instance, because there was no way she could get reforms if she supported Lambert.
No one's advocating that mages be thrown into the wilderness to test themselves against demons alone, but Justinia may well be fine with the Chantry just letting them go. We shall see.
Assuming she's alive. Assuming anyone in a leadership role in the Chantry is alive.
As I said, the Chantry is too much of a narrative and story tool for Bioware. It has too big of a presence in the world. They aren't going to remove it any more than they are going to remove Orlais, Tevinter, or the Qunari.
Well, I'm certain the qunari are going to go sooner or later. The Chantry might get to limp on a bit longer, it's true.
Afraid you will be waiting a long time Not out of any pro chantry stance here, but the Chantry isn't going anywhere. From a storyline/narrative point of view it serves no purpose to destroy it or further weaken it.
You're more than likely correct. I am however of the mind that mages' greatest enemy could become their greatest ally with Justinia at the helm. If not, well, I guess they can fight it out, just like old times as Garrus would say.
It happens in games it happens in the lore, it happens independent of the chantry. Again, Wilhem didn't HAVE to summon demons, HE CHOSE TO, and other wizards without Circle oversight- which is what Durasteel and I were discussing-and is what Wilhelm effectively was- will summon demons. It isn't like mages didn't summon demons prior to the circle's existence.
Agreed, some will summon demons. But judging from both games this does not seem to be the norm. The demon summoners are a minority that can be put in check by mages and templars both if need be.
That is a fairy tale not a side. There is only one way Mages and Templars will cooperate and only when something threatens everyone. Something like Qunari Invasion or an enormous blight. Otherwise its not possible.
Really? Because I find it entirely plausible that when the extremists on both sides are brought to heel-or killed outright- the moderates which in most any group make up the majority will be more than willing to see the reason of debate and resolution. Heck, we already know there is a peace conference of some sort at the begining of DAI so there is some hope of resolution already at the beginning of the game.
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It would most definitely be interesting.
It would be if they kept making sequels in the "dragon age" at least.
Not like Mass Effect (apparently). There's probably going to be a major political/dynastic type of shift there, but we'll probably never know. So what do I care.
You're more than likely correct. I am however of the mind that mages' greatest enemy could become their greatest ally with Justinia at the helm. If not, well, I guess they can fight it out, just like old times as Garrus would say.
Agreed, some will summon demons. But judging from both games this does not seem to be the norm. The demon summoners are a minority that can be put in check by mages and templars both if need be.
I actually agree with both your points on this-I didn't realize you were meaning for Justina to support mages. Yes, as part of her reforms I do see the mages coming out ahead of the templars, just don't see the outright freedom.
On your second point, that was my the same issue I had in my discourse with durasteel, You can't have mages completely independent and doing their own thing without any form of oversight. As I said then; I would rather inconvenince mages a slight bit by requiring them to come to the tower for training/checking in/social activities a couple of times a year, than having to pass through villages that were already destroyed by demons or abominations because we didn't want to ask the mages to keep in touch. No my system wouldn't entirely prevent such occurences, but I think it would greatly reduce them.
It would be if they kept making sequels in the "dragon age" at least.
Not like Mass Effect (apparently). There's probably going to be a major political/dynastic type of shift there, but we'll probably never know. So what do I care.
I'm certain they will, yes.
I actually agree with both your points on this-I didn't realize you were meaning for Justina to support mages. Yes, as part of her reforms I do see the mages coming out ahead of the templars, just don't see the outright freedom.
On your second point, that was my the same issue I had in my discourse with durasteel, You can't have mages completely independent and doing their own thing without any form of oversight. As I said then; I would rather inconvenince mages a slight bit by requiring them to come to the tower for training/checking in/social activities a couple of times a year, than having to pass through villages that were already destroyed by demons or abominations because we didn't want to ask the mages to keep in touch. No my system wouldn't entirely prevent such occurences, but I think it would greatly reduce them.
Not complete and utter freedom just yet, inch by inch though.
I agree with such an idea as to have mages check in at the circle. As of now that would be the ideal goal in shooting for mage freedom. I am of a mind that in the future mages will be able to function without oversight, similar to the mundanes of the world. It wouldn't come any time soon without the mages being forced to emulate Tevinter, but in generations I can see it happening.
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I'm certain they will, yes.
One thing I wouldn't like though is that this strange/oppressive position for mages is a defining characteristic of Dragon Age - and changing it takes out some of the fun of that. It makes for good drama. Without it, it becomes more like D&D or Diablo or whatever.. any fantasy setting where magic is everywhere. I like that too, but it's a different backdrop. If this was what they were aiming for all along, why not just start with it.
Not complete and utter freedom just yet, inch by inch though.
I agree with such an idea as to have mages check in at the circle. As of now that would be the ideal goal in shooting for mage freedom. I am of a mind that in the future mages will be able to function without oversight, similar to the mundanes of the world. It wouldn't come any time soon without the mages being forced to emulate Tevinter, but in generations I can see it happening.
Ok, setting aside my own concerns about the dangerous potential of no oversight for mages at all--Even the imperium sees the need for some level of oversight. That is why they first developed the circles and still to this day employ and use templars. It is a debate as to whether or not the templars have the same anti magic powers or if they are just soldiers, but they do exist and are more riegned in than other templars.
But Pharamond's situation was unique. He was doing secret research at the Divine's request. There were no templars on the site to provide security, and I don't think most circle mages will summon demons in their homes or put their villages at risk for research that can be done safely at a circle.
And Xil is right. Have an Enchanter and templar/sentinel present to stop the Harrowing if an apprentice is in danger of failing.
Have another more experienced mage nearby to save them if it starts to go wrong.
Nice idea. Not a long ago I made a thread about the Harrowing.
http://forum.bioware...pro-and-contra/
...
On your second point, that was my the same issue I had in my discourse with durasteel, You can't have mages completely independent and doing their own thing without any form of oversight. As I said then; I would rather inconvenince mages a slight bit by requiring them to come to the tower for training/checking in/social activities a couple of times a year, than having to pass through villages that were already destroyed by demons or abominations because we didn't want to ask the mages to keep in touch. No my system wouldn't entirely prevent such occurences, but I think it would greatly reduce them.
The destruction of villages seems to fall into three categories. The first is the emerging talent issue, where a child blows stuff up out of ignorance. The second is the desperate fugitive issue, where the templars back a mage into a corner. The third is the magical transgressor, who through incompetence or evil brings harm upon innocents.
The first category is one which is, as far as I can tell, somewhat inevitable. There will always be farmhouses lit on fire by accident, both by magic and mundane reasons. I think that the friendlier you make the Circle system, providing guidance and structure instead of imprisonment, condemnation, and edicts, the more likely the kid and the family will be to come to the Circle at the first sign of magic, so some of the more disastrous outcomes may be avoided thereby.
The second issue is altogether avoided by making the Circle optional. No more fugitives.
The third issue seems to be the one you're most focussed on, despite the fact that it seems to be very rare, at least based on what we've seen. I also think that such incidents are bound to happen, even if they happen rarely, and since they cannot be entirely prevented it seems that the best way to deal with them would be to have mages and templars working together to respond to such an occurrence as quickly and as effectively as possible.
I think you'll be forced to blow up red templars.
I'd still choose to save them rather then destroy them if the option presented it self.
Those poor louts don't deserve death merely because they took steps to combat the increased threat of magic in an unstable Thedas.
Nice idea. Not a long ago I made a thread about the Harrowing.
So you think placing another more experienced mage into a possible possession is a good idea?
How is handing a demon that is winning its struggle a stronger body a good idea?
One thing I wouldn't like though is that this strange/oppressive position for mages is a defining characteristic of Dragon Age - and changing it takes out some of the fun of that. It makes for good drama. Without it, it becomes more like D&D or Diablo or whatever.. any fantasy setting where magic is everywhere. I like that too, but it's a different backdrop. If this was what they were aiming for all along, why not just start with it.
I don't think there's any point at hinting at social change without following through with it. Otherwise it just lingers, like gangrenous flesh. The notion of a fantasy world changing its status quo significantly is quite enticing, and I want it badly.
So you think placing another more experienced mage into a possible possession is a good idea?
How is handing a demon that is winning its struggle a stronger body a good idea?
Yeah, that's totally what I said because experienced mage who already had a Harrowing would be equally as susceptible to possession as a raw apprentice. It's interesting how people defend with a passion even such weak decisions by devs.
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I don't think there's any point at hinting at social change without following through with it. Otherwise it just lingers, like gangrenous flesh. The notion of a fantasy world changing its status quo significantly is quite enticing, and I want it badly.
You have a point. Why hint at it all....
Something will happen for sure. I just doubt it'll eradicate the Chantry.
The destruction of villages seems to fall into three categories. The first is the emerging talent issue, where a child blows stuff up out of ignorance. The second is the desperate fugitive issue, where the templars back a mage into a corner. The third is the magical transgressor, who through incompetence or evil brings harm upon innocents.
The first category is one which is, as far as I can tell, somewhat inevitable. There will always be farmhouses lit on fire by accident, both by magic and mundane reasons. I think that the friendlier you make the Circle system, providing guidance and structure instead of imprisonment, condemnation, and edicts, the more likely the kid and the family will be to come to the Circle at the first sign of magic, so some of the more disastrous outcomes may be avoided thereby.
The second issue is altogether avoided by making the Circle optional. No more fugitives.
The third issue seems to be the one you're most focussed on, despite the fact that it seems to be very rare, at least based on what we've seen. I also think that such incidents are bound to happen, even if they happen rarely, and since they cannot be entirely prevented it seems that the best way to deal with them would be to have mages and templars working together to respond to such an occurrence as quickly and as effectively as possible.
Dura, I have no argument with the majority of that. I could argue with the rarity of outright possession/magical transgressor, but we really don't know how rare that is or isn't so I won't-again I think it is more of an issue than you do, but that isn't an argument either of us will win. However, I don't see how requiring mages to be trained and than letting them live outside the tower as long as they come to the tower for training/social/whatever 2 or 3 times a year is that much of an intrusion into their freedoms? It is in the mages best interest to be trained, a twice a year conference at the circles isn't really that great of an imposition on the mages themselves?
You have a point. Why hint at it all....
Something will happen for sure. I just doubt it'll eradicate the Chantry.
Well, I'd be pissed if they didn't hint it either, because when bad situations arise, I want to change them. Proactivity for all!
Yeah, that's totally what I said because experienced mage who already had a Harrowing would be equally as susceptible to possession as a raw apprentice. It's interesting how people defend with a passion even such weak decisions by devs.
*Looks at DA and see's even Senior Enchanters getting possessed*
._. Ahem, Meaning or no, experience and rank seem to matter little when battling stronger varients of Demon and given the PC magi origin had the Warden combating a Pride demon...Well; I could see bringing another mage into the equation as merely baiting the demon not to play as nice as it could otherwise be when dealing with a Novice, Having a Apprentice become an abomination while horrible it isn't as damaging potentially as risking an experienced mage with otherwise far more power then a novice.
And i don't see the decision to make the Harrowing a solo practice to be any failing of the Dev team, Considering it makes sense when you apply any strain of logic to it. More Mages just means you are risking more ultimately.
Yeah, that's totally what I said because experienced mage who already had a Harrowing would be equally as susceptible to possession as a raw apprentice. It's interesting how people defend with a passion even such weak decisions by devs.
Just curious what exactly is the "weak decision by devs" you are referring to?
Ok, setting aside my own concerns about the dangerous potential of no oversight for mages at all--Even the imperium sees the need for some level of oversight. That is why they first developed the circles and still to this day employ and use templars. It is a debate as to whether or not the templars have the same anti magic powers or if they are just soldiers, but they do exist and are more riegned in than other templars.
Perhaps I should have been clearer. The end game is for mages to be able to live similarly to mundanes, with the circle visits and phylacteries, maybe even require them to live in a city that has templars.
I simply wish to afford them the opportunity to live like mundanes with added security measures that aren't designed to rule the mages' lives. I still believe that mages can function without oversight from the Chantry or it's templars, rather the oversight of trusted mages. At least in time.
If this can be won peacefully, fantastic. If not, then the mages should do what needs to be done.
*Looks at DA and see's even Senior Enchanters getting possessed*
._. Ahem, Meaning or no, experience and rank seem to matter little when battling stronger varients of Demon and given the PC magi origin had the Warden combating a Pride demon...Well; I could see bringing another mage into the equation as merely baiting the demon not to play as nice as it could otherwise be when dealing with a Novice, Having a Apprentice become an abomination while horrible it isn't as damaging potentially as risking an experienced mage with otherwise far more power then a novice.
And i don't see the decision to make the Harrowing a solo practice to be any failing of the Dev team, Considering it makes sense when you apply any strain of logic to it. More Mages just means you are risking more ultimately.
That shows how the Harrowing is so effective in rooting out blood mages.
Compare that to Grey Warden trials. Do they send a raw recruit against darkspawn in do or die situation? No, they send a GROUP of recruits under the command of a SENIOR Grey Warden. Which is infinitely more logical - conduct Harrowing like that, sending a group of apprentices under the guidance of a senior enchanter.
That shows how the Harrowing is so effective in rooting out blood mages.
Compare that to Grey Warden trials. Do they send a raw recruit against darkspawn in do or die situation? No, they send a GROUP of recruits under the command of a SENIOR Grey Warden. Which is infinitely more logical - conduct Harrowing like that, sending a group of apprentices under the guidance of a senior enchanter.
While you have a point, using the Wardens as an example isn't in your best interest. The better corralary to the Harrowing would be the joining which I believe has a much higher mortality rate than the harrowing does.
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