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[Master Warder Z_]

That shows how the Harrowing is so effective in rooting out blood mages.

 

Compare that to Grey Warden trials. Do they send a raw recruit against darkspawn in do or die situation? No, they send a GROUP of recruits under the command of a SENIOR Grey Warden. Which is infinitely more logical - conduct Harrowing like that, sending a group of apprentices under the guidance of a senior enchanter.

It shows that mages need to be contained far more thoroughly thus far, Clearly the templars have been to lenient and let that demon worshiping knowledge spread, But notably its strange that you find blood mages far more often in  ONE fraternity more then any other eh? Couldn't have anything to do with that mindset and ego though, oh no it has to be the fault of the Circle and its teachings.

 

And how does that prove the strength of the Individual mages? The Horrowing as it stands now allows mages to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they at least get the concept of fending off both demonic possession and fighting off demon influence it self. No one is at fault save the mage himself when said harrowed mage later goes on to be an abomination due to their own foolishness and lust for power.

[durasteel]

Dura, I have no argument with the majority of that.  I could argue with the rarity of outright possession/magical transgressor, but we really don't know how rare that is or isn't so I won't-again I think it is more of an issue than you do, but that isn't an argument either of us will win. However, I don't see how requiring mages to be trained and than letting them live outside the tower as long as they come to the tower for training/social/whatever 2 or 3 times a year is that much of an intrusion into their freedoms?  It is in the mages best interest to be trained, a twice a year conference at the circles isn't really that great of an imposition on the mages themselves?

For me, the issue hinges upon vesting complete authority over mages (or any other subset of the population) within an external authority. I think that abuse of that authority (power corrupts, absolute ... absolutely) is inevitable and you will inevitably wind up right back where we were with Miss Meredith and the Holy Roller Empire.

 

I really do think that, given the option, the overwhelming majority of mages (approaching but not quite "all") would join a Circle. I think, in fact, participation in the Circles would be greater as a percentage of total mages under the system I would support compared to the Chantry controlled system that we've seen in the Dragon Age. 

 

Having the Circles run by mages in cooperation with mundane templars, rather than the other way around, would go a long way towards achieving a long-term solution, but I think making the Circles optional is really the key to permanence.

[Divine Justinia V]

It shows that mages need to be contained far more thoroughly thus far, Clearly the templars have been to lenient and let that demon worshiping knowledge spread, But notably its strange that you find blood mages far more often in  ONE fraternity more then any other eh? Couldn't have anything to do with that mindset and ego though, oh no it has to be the fault of the Circle and its teachings.

 

And how does that prove the strength of the Individual mages? The Horrowing as it stands now allows mages to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they at least get the concept of fending off both demonic possession and fighting off demon influence it self. No one is at fault save the mage himself when said harrowed mage later goes on to be an abomination due to their own foolishness and lust for power.

 

I hate when I agree with you.

 

I think maybe the Harrowing could go a little differently, in the case of a Mage that fails. I don't think they should be made Tranquil. There has to be a better way.

[wcholcombe]

I hate when I agree with you.

 

I think maybe the Harrowing could go a little differently, in the case of a Mage that fails. I don't think they should be made Tranquil. There has to be a better way.

Mages who fail are killed-they become abominations.  You become tranquil if you refuse to do the harrowing or if the 1st Enchanter doesn't think you can pass it.

[EmissaryofLies]

Making the circle a tighter and more regulated place will only serve to create more potential Connors. Not to mention giving the prisoners even more ammunition against their jailers. It will ultimately create that which it seeks most to destroy and quite honestly I'd be of the mind to let the monster that Frankenstein creates devour him.

[Star fury]

While you have a point, using the Wardens as an example isn't in your best interest.  The better corralary to the Harrowing would be the joining which I believe has a much higher mortality rate than the harrowing does.

The Joining is a bad decision too, I discussed it in my thread about the Harrowing too.

[wcholcombe]

For me, the issue hinges upon vesting complete authority over mages (or any other subset of the population) within an external authority. I think that abuse of that authority (power corrupts, absolute ... absolutely) is inevitable and you will inevitably wind up right back where we were with Miss Meredith and the Holy Roller Empire.

 

I really do think that, given the option, the overwhelming majority of mages (approaching but not quite "all") would join a Circle. I think, in fact, participation in the Circles would be greater as a percentage of total mages under the system I would support compared to the Chantry controlled system that we've seen in the Dragon Age. 

 

Having the Circles run by mages in cooperation with mundane templars, rather than the other way around, would go a long way towards achieving a long-term solution, but I think making the Circles optional is really the key to permanence.

I still think if you are a mage you have to go to the circle and you have to check in twice a year is mandatory for me.  Mages in cooperation with templars and some 3rd group is what I have been espousing for a while now, I am perfectly fine with the freedom aspect-as long as they check in and as long as they are trained in a tower until they pass their harrowing.  Maybe that makes me seem narrowminded I don't know, but mandatory enrollment in what amounts to a Wizards college to learn to use your powers until you pass your apprenticeship with mandatory twice a year conferences doesn't sound that horrible.

[The Elder King]

The Joining is a bad decision too, I discussed it in my thread about the Harrowing too.

What do you think it's wrong? The secrecy?

[Xilizhra]

I still think if you are a mage you have to go to the circle and you have to check in twice a year is mandatory for me.  Mages in cooperation with templars and some 3rd group is what I have been espousing for a while now, I am perfectly fine with the freedom aspect-as long as they check in and as long as they are trained in a tower until they pass their harrowing.  Maybe that makes me seem narrowminded I don't know, but mandatory enrollment in what amounts to a Wizards college to learn to use your powers until you pass your apprenticeship with mandatory twice a year conferences doesn't sound that horrible.

Holding onto such a view, I seriously doubt you'll be able to make peace with the templars.

 

I might be able to work with it to some extent, but they won't.

[wcholcombe]

The Joining is a bad decision too, I discussed it in my thread about the Harrowing too.

yes but your comparison of the harrowing to going and getting darkspawn blood is a bad comparison.  The more apt comparsion would be going to get the darkspawn blood compared to master mages teaching apprentices to cast spells.  The harrowing and the joining are the final steps to "graduation" more or less.

[durasteel]

I'd still choose to save [red templars] rather then destroy them if the option presented it self.

 

Those poor louts don't deserve death merely because they took steps to combat the increased threat of magic in an unstable Thedas.

 

Good luck with that. In all likelihood they were religious zealots who broke away from the mainstream of the Chantry to pursue a fundamentalist jihad, then they ingested red lyrium to make themselves a living weapon and a martyr. 

 

Looks like they started off dumb, then got crazy on religion, then pickled their brains with a substance that can turn even dwarves and military commanders with intellect and will into paranoid psychopaths. 

 

Yeah... let them guard your fort for you. Let me know how that works out.

[Master Warder Z_]

I hate when I agree with you.

 

I think maybe the Harrowing could go a little differently, in the case of a Mage that fails. I don't think they should be made Tranquil. There has to be a better way.

 

I am a staunch Pro Templar but that doesn't mean i don't get the argument for having less restrictions on circle mages and the circle it self.

 

But i also look at the current circle and i see why it has failed, it has failed because those restrictions were loosened, if you cannot contain both magic and mage the practice becomes pointless, And any allowance given to the Mages must be carefully measured and controlled else you end up with knowledge and idea's spreading that really shouldn't be there to begin with.

 

The Circle doesn't have to be a prison but it has to be an institution that once entered, the mage is beholden to it for the reminder of their life, whether they live and work there or no.

 

And I'd agree except what else are to be done with those who fail if they actually survive? Do you want such a weak mage to roam free? By this point they have received at least several years worth of magical education for the most part, granting them further power with out tempering them against demonic influence ultimately to me seems a bad idea.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That is a fairy tale not a side. There is only one way Mages and Templars will cooperate and only when something threatens everyone. Something like Qunari Invasion or an enormous blight. Otherwise its not possible. 

Something like this?

 

[Star fury]

What do you think it's wrong? The secrecy?

Harrowing and Joining are both failed attempts at making a game dark and grim.

 

http://forum.bioware...pro-and-contra/

[Master Warder Z_]

Good luck with that. In all likelihood they were religious zealots who broke away from the mainstream of the Chantry to pursue a fundamentalist jihad, then they ingested red lyrium to make themselves a living weapon and a martyr. 

 

Looks like they started off dumb, then got crazy on religion, then pickled their brains with a substance that can turn even dwarves and military commanders with intellect and will into paranoid psychopaths. 

 

Yeah... let them guard your fort for you. Let me know how that works out.

 

You think crafting a faction we yet know nothing about into a political strawman will deter me from my perspective?

 

To me? Those Templars are the real victims of Magic in DAI, Corrupting yourself into such a thing merely combat the threat of it is a noble thing.

[wcholcombe]

Holding onto such a view, I seriously doubt you'll be able to make peace with the templars.

 

I might be able to work with it to some extent, but they won't.

Again, I fully expect to have to bring the extremists on both sides to heel.  I don't expect Adrian and Fiona, to go for this any more than Lambert or Arnaud.  However, I do think that Cullen might, Wynne I am certain would, Thrask and Orsino would probably be in agreement as well.  Like I said there will be a lot of dead wood I have to cut away for my idea to work.

[Lulupab]

Mages who fail are killed-they become abominations.  You become tranquil if you refuse to do the harrowing or if the 1st Enchanter doesn't think you can pass it.

 

As known as its forced upon you and you cannot just live in peace as a mage in a circle not even under constant watch. You have to take a full risk in your life or you will become a tranquil or die when you fail. The fact that Demons have possessed strongest of mages is proof that it should be avoided in the first place rather than tested.

 

And do not for a minute think that majority of mages don't oppose the circles. Before official mage rebellion many circles revolted or were close to do so. And after the rebellion ALL OF THE CIRCLES got free from Templars. I think its quite believable as in all in game scenes Templars always lost the initial battle and it was reinforcements that always turned the tide for them. But guess what since the rebellion is everywhere no could afford to send Templars to anywhere, making all fifteen circles to revolt and potentially kill Templars guarding said circle.

[DKJaigen]

You think crafting a faction we yet know nothing about into a political strawman will deter me from my perspective?

 

To me? Those Templars are the real victims of Magic in DAI, Corrupting yourself into such a thing merely combat the threat of it is a noble thing.

 

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

[Master Warder Z_]

Random Trite Pro Mage BS

 

Like we need more of that here!

[Xilizhra]

Again, I fully expect to have to bring the extremists on both sides to heel.  I don't expect Adrian and Fiona, to go for this any more than Lambert or Arnaud.  However, I do think that Cullen might, Wynne I am certain would, Thrask and Orsino would probably be in agreement as well.  Like I said there will be a lot of dead wood I have to cut away for my idea to work.

Fiona will, provided the Chantry isn't involved or is only involved at arms' length. Adrian might be mildly irked but would accept it if it meant more allies against the templars.

[wcholcombe]

As known as its forced upon you and you cannot just live in peace as a mage in a circle not even under constant watch. You have to take a full risk in your life or you will become a tranquil or die when you fail. The fact that Demons have possessed strongest of mages is proof that it should be avoided in the first place rather than tested.

 

And do not for a minute think that majority of mages don't oppose the circles. Before official mage rebellion many circles revolted or were close to do so. And after the rebellion ALL OF THE CIRCLES got free from Templars. I think its quite believable as in all in game scenes Templars always lost the initial battle and it was reinforcements that always turned the tide for them. But guess what since the rebellion is everywhere no could afford to send Templars to anywhere, making all fifteen circles to revolt and potentially kill Templars guarding said circle.

I don't even know what you are arguing with me about?  I was just telling Justinia that if you fail the Harrowing you are killed not made tranquil??

[Master Warder Z_]

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

 

._. Ya i can warp quotes to suit my meaning as well ya know.

[Master Warder Z_]

Fiona will, provided the Chantry isn't involved or is only involved at arms' length. Adrian might be mildly irked but would accept it if it meant more allies against the templars.

 

Fiona doesn't have the sense to make alliances, Her lunacy knows no bounds.

[wcholcombe]

Fiona will, provided the Chantry isn't involved or is only involved at arms' length. Adrian might be mildly irked but would accept it if it meant more allies against the templars.

Sorry, Adrian has already show her cards as an all or nothing person.  Fiona might, but due to her lack of ability to place nice when people are trying to help her  I seriously doubt it.

 

But we are probably going to fail altogether, because I am expecting the Chantry to be in lock step with my inquisitor in achieving this.  I believe that it was a long term goal of Justina and what she was moving towards.