8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

dragonflight288 wrote...

That is the question, now isn't it. 

I have debated this for two or three years now, and have studied the codexes on magic and abominations more thoroughly than I have other codexes like elves, and there are no in-game answers.

I suppose the truth is we simply don't know enough about demons, and there hasn't been enough research into demonology, which should only be done under constant supervision given the dangerous nature of such research, but I think it is obvious that given the lack of abominations popping up whenever a mage goes to sleep that the danger isn't nearly as bad as Kommander or the Chantry dictate, but it obviously is a very real danger as there is no doubt demons do prey upon mages in their sleep, whether they be special cases like Feynriel or Conner, or that mage girl who was so scared of her sleep that she requested to be made tranquil. (I think it's an item description that makes her case.)

It could simply be that Dreamers are the mages in the most danger, and it may be possible that Meredith's sister and Connor are actually Dreamers like Feynriel.

Or I may be wrong, but it seems self-evident that mages aren't as in as much danger as some believe. 

Well, with these giant tears in the Veil you'll get your chance to learn more about demons, since if there will ever be a game to divulge those secrets, it's Inquisition.

[leaguer of one]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

But the lower tier won't try any mage?

They can try but they probably do it in less manipulative ways than a Deisre of Pride Demon would. Probably brute force it.

...To trees mind you. Not to mages.

[TK514]

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...


No?  He's an escaped slave who hates mages.  In what way is he even remotely a Templar?  Did he join the Order?  Did he spend years as an initiate learning their proceedures, their reasonings, their operational rules?  Has he spent any time in a Circle, guarding mages, viewing them as people to be protected and protected against?  Seeing them as people he might have a crush on?  Seeing them as anything other than Denarius?

I mean in ability. He has high magic resistance and is power by the lyrium in his skin.

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities.  Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

[dragonflight288]

Yeah. The discussions with Justice in Awakening definitely show that they understand some of the mortal plane, like how it is based on order and doesn't change while the Fade is based on chaos and always changing. Also Justice seemed to be able to pick up on things just by touching them like Javik in ME3, so perhaps demons gain knowledge that way too.

Justice described it like seeing fingerprints all over the world.

I suppose many demons and spirits would gain knowledge that way, but I suppose it also depends on the type. I don't see a wisp having the intelligence to look for those things compared to a sloth or desire demon. Rage demons appear to be so consumed with rage for the sake of rage that they don't take the time to think.

A Pride Demon would easily be able to go in with some basic knowledge of what to expect, and then take in the knowledge of the one he possessed to add onto it, and create a very convincing persona.

[dragonflight288]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

That is the question, now isn't it. 

I have debated this for two or three years now, and have studied the codexes on magic and abominations more thoroughly than I have other codexes like elves, and there are no in-game answers.

I suppose the truth is we simply don't know enough about demons, and there hasn't been enough research into demonology, which should only be done under constant supervision given the dangerous nature of such research, but I think it is obvious that given the lack of abominations popping up whenever a mage goes to sleep that the danger isn't nearly as bad as Kommander or the Chantry dictate, but it obviously is a very real danger as there is no doubt demons do prey upon mages in their sleep, whether they be special cases like Feynriel or Conner, or that mage girl who was so scared of her sleep that she requested to be made tranquil. (I think it's an item description that makes her case.)

It could simply be that Dreamers are the mages in the most danger, and it may be possible that Meredith's sister and Connor are actually Dreamers like Feynriel.

Or I may be wrong, but it seems self-evident that mages aren't as in as much danger as some believe. 

Well, with these giant tears in the Veil you'll get your chance to learn more about demons, since if there will ever be a game to divulge those secrets, it's Inquisition.

Yay!!! 

[Hellion Rex]

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...


No?  He's an escaped slave who hates mages.  In what way is he even remotely a Templar?  Did he join the Order?  Did he spend years as an initiate learning their proceedures, their reasonings, their operational rules?  Has he spent any time in a Circle, guarding mages, viewing them as people to be protected and protected against?  Seeing them as people he might have a crush on?  Seeing them as anything other than Denarius?

I mean in ability. He has high magic resistance and is power by the lyrium in his skin.

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities.  Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

In all honesty, I think the best you might get is Cullen as a companion, or perhaps an important Templar agent, unfortunately.

[TEWR]

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...


No?  He's an escaped slave who hates mages.  In what way is he even remotely a Templar?  Did he join the Order?  Did he spend years as an initiate learning their proceedures, their reasonings, their operational rules?  Has he spent any time in a Circle, guarding mages, viewing them as people to be protected and protected against?  Seeing them as people he might have a crush on?  Seeing them as anything other than Denarius?

I mean in ability. He has high magic resistance and is power by the lyrium in his skin.

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities.  Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

He does have some Templar stances in his viewpoints, but it is more a viewpoint based on resentment and condemnation.

Ability-wise, while there are Templar things in there he also has Spirit Warrior things as well.

[leaguer of one]

TK514 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TK514 wrote...


No?  He's an escaped slave who hates mages.  In what way is he even remotely a Templar?  Did he join the Order?  Did he spend years as an initiate learning their proceedures, their reasonings, their operational rules?  Has he spent any time in a Circle, guarding mages, viewing them as people to be protected and protected against?  Seeing them as people he might have a crush on?  Seeing them as anything other than Denarius?

I mean in ability. He has high magic resistance and is power by the lyrium in his skin.

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities.  Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

But he does provide a veiw to a world wear mages have too mich control. Added in DAO, the templars are just show to be doing their job. In the mage origin, it starts as a hint of bias to them sa you find out your friend is suspected to be a blood mage. He state he's not and just being with a girl. You help him and it turns out he really is a blood mage. 
That paints the templars as the bad guy?

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

COUGHmeredith'ssisterwasalsoachildabominationCOUGH

Just because child mages are not as good as adult mages doesn't mean demons won't go for them.

What about pre-teen abominations or teen abominations. Remeber the harrowing happens when they turn 20.

Or until they are deemed ready. If they are considered weak or dangerous the Rite of Tranquility is forced upon them. 

But that still opens the chance for a demon to try and take them. Why don't demons do that?

That is the question, now isn't it. 

I have debated this for two or three years now, and have studied the codexes on magic and abominations more thoroughly than I have other codexes like elves, and there are no in-game answers.

I suppose the truth is we simply don't know enough about demons, and there hasn't been enough research into demonology, which should only be done under constant supervision given the dangerous nature of such research, but I think it is obvious that given the lack of abominations popping up whenever a mage goes to sleep that the danger isn't nearly as bad as Kommander or the Chantry dictate, but it obviously is a very real danger as there is no doubt demons do prey upon mages in their sleep, whether they be special cases like Feynriel or Conner, or that mage girl who was so scared of her sleep that she requested to be made tranquil. (I think it's an item description that makes her case.)

It could simply be that Dreamers are the mages in the most danger, and it may be possible that Meredith's sister and Connor are actually Dreamers like Feynriel.

Or I may be wrong, but it seems self-evident that mages aren't as in as much danger as some believe. 

*Inseption horn*

[dragonflight288]

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities. Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

I actually would love a reasonable templar's perspective, one who can give us statistics we currently lack, like how many mages are forced into tranquility verse how many undergo the Harrowing. How many runaways there are compared to how many mages follow the rules. How many children going to their tearcher/mentors for comfort because of being troubled in their sleep.

EDIT: And how many mages volunteer for tranquility, not out of fear of the Harrowing but out of fear for themselves when they sleep.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 17 février 2014 - 04:54 .

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities. Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

I actually would love a reasonable templar's perspective, one who can give us statistics we currently lack, like how many mages are forced into tranquility verse how many undergo the Harrowing. How many runaways there are compared to how many mages follow the rules. How many children going to their tearcher/mentors for comfort because of being troubled in their sleep.

EDIT: And how many mages volunteer for tranquility, not out of fear of the Harrowing but out of fear for themselves when they sleep.

Read Tranquility.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities. Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

I actually would love a reasonable templar's perspective, one who can give us statistics we currently lack, like how many mages are forced into tranquility verse how many undergo the Harrowing. How many runaways there are compared to how many mages follow the rules. How many children going to their tearcher/mentors for comfort because of being troubled in their sleep.

EDIT: And how many mages volunteer for tranquility, not out of fear of the Harrowing but out of fear for themselves when they sleep.

Read Tranquility.

Ah. Thanks. I actually made reference to that earlier this evening, but forgot the item in question.

Anyway, we have Orana here, but let me ask this as there is no lore on the subject. How many other children are like her and request Tranquility? This stat would help us as gamers determine the actual danger demons actually are to mage children. 

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities. Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

I actually would love a reasonable templar's perspective, one who can give us statistics we currently lack, like how many mages are forced into tranquility verse how many undergo the Harrowing. How many runaways there are compared to how many mages follow the rules. How many children going to their tearcher/mentors for comfort because of being troubled in their sleep.

EDIT: And how many mages volunteer for tranquility, not out of fear of the Harrowing but out of fear for themselves when they sleep.

Read Tranquility.

Ah. Thanks. I actually made reference to that earlier this evening, but forgot the item in question.

Anyway, we have Orana here, but let me ask this as there is no lore on the subject. How many other children are like her and request Tranquility? This stat would help us as gamers determine the actual danger demons actually are to mage children. 

Inside the Circles, I believe the rates of children facing demon problems are much lower than outside. That being said, there are exceptions like Orana. Perhaps she even had budding Dreamer talents, cause her situation sounds remarkably similar to Feynriel.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities. Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

I actually would love a reasonable templar's perspective, one who can give us statistics we currently lack, like how many mages are forced into tranquility verse how many undergo the Harrowing. How many runaways there are compared to how many mages follow the rules. How many children going to their tearcher/mentors for comfort because of being troubled in their sleep.

EDIT: And how many mages volunteer for tranquility, not out of fear of the Harrowing but out of fear for themselves when they sleep.

Read Tranquility.

Ah. Thanks. I actually made reference to that earlier this evening, but forgot the item in question.

Anyway, we have Orana here, but let me ask this as there is no lore on the subject. How many other children are like her and request Tranquility? This stat would help us as gamers determine the actual danger demons actually are to mage children. 

Inside the Circles, I believe the rates of children facing demon problems are much lower than outside. That being said, there are exceptions like Orana. Perhaps she even had budding Dreamer talents, cause her situation sounds remarkably similar to Feynriel.

Which brings up another point. We know that Dreamers are rare outside of Tevinter because they have a low survival rate.

What if the child-abominations and Orana were actually all dreamers? Wouldn't that mitigate the risk of regular mages almost entirely?

[leaguer of one]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities. Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

I actually would love a reasonable templar's perspective, one who can give us statistics we currently lack, like how many mages are forced into tranquility verse how many undergo the Harrowing. How many runaways there are compared to how many mages follow the rules. How many children going to their tearcher/mentors for comfort because of being troubled in their sleep.

EDIT: And how many mages volunteer for tranquility, not out of fear of the Harrowing but out of fear for themselves when they sleep.

Read Tranquility.

Ah. Thanks. I actually made reference to that earlier this evening, but forgot the item in question.

Anyway, we have Orana here, but let me ask this as there is no lore on the subject. How many other children are like her and request Tranquility? This stat would help us as gamers determine the actual danger demons actually are to mage children. 

Inside the Circles, I believe the rates of children facing demon problems are much lower than outside. That being said, there are exceptions like Orana. Perhaps she even had budding Dreamer talents, cause her situation sounds remarkably similar to Feynriel.

Which brings up another point. We know that Dreamers are rare outside of Tevinter because they have a low survival rate.

What if the child-abominations and Orana were actually all dreamers? Wouldn't that mitigate the risk of regular mages almost entirely?

That would mean that normal mages are not that much of a danger. While the powerful one need to be watcher over , guided or even made tranquil.

So the vast majory of mages really don't turn into abombonations!!!

*Inception horn*

[The Elder King]

From what we know, Connor wasn't plagued by nightmares. He wasn't in the same situation of Orana and Fenyerel. We don't know enough about Meredith's sister.
Though dragonflight, I recall that in a precedent page you said that mages aren't aware in the Fade unless they use lyrium. I definitely recall that mages are aware when sleeping, which is the difference with non-mages. Wynne (if I recall) talked about it.

Modifié par hhh89, 17 février 2014 - 05:17 .

[dragonflight288]

hhh89 wrote...

From what we know, Connor wasn't plagued by nightmares. He wasn't in the same situation of Orana and Fenyerel. We don't know enough about Meredith's sister.
Though dragonflight, I recall that in a precedent page you said that mages aren't aware in the Fade unless they use lyrium. I definitely recall that mages are aware when sleeping, which is the difference with non-mages. Wynne (if I recall) talked about it.

You're right. I was mistaken on that front. Here is a culmination of all Fade knowledge that we know of as of this moment pre-Masked Emperor and Inquisition.

Still, it doesn't talk about how often mage children are tempted by demons, or how often they're possessed. Only that they are the notable exception to everyone else in that they are aware. 

It still seems that unless a mage is a dreamer, they are only is so much danger when they enter the Fade using lyrium or blood magic. Connor may very well have been a dreamer. Heck, he went to Tevinter to study like Feynriel did if he lives past Origins. 

EDIT: From what we know of Connor's situation, Jowan says that Connor started exhibiting signs of magical sensitvity and Isolde secretly sought a tutor so that Eamon wouldn't know their son was a mage as he would've sent him to the Circle. And if we choose to kill him, Connor will say that he spoke with "the nice lady" in his dreams. That's all we really know. We don't know if he was or was not suffering from nightmares. It's never made clear. 

Modifié par dragonflight288, 17 février 2014 - 05:41 .

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Discussing Templar viewpoint, not ability. The PC and any warrior, and Hawke can have Templar abilities. Does nothing to balance the lack of a Templar viewpoint, sadly.

I actually would love a reasonable templar's perspective, one who can give us statistics we currently lack, like how many mages are forced into tranquility verse how many undergo the Harrowing. How many runaways there are compared to how many mages follow the rules. How many children going to their tearcher/mentors for comfort because of being troubled in their sleep.

EDIT: And how many mages volunteer for tranquility, not out of fear of the Harrowing but out of fear for themselves when they sleep.

Read Tranquility.

Ah. Thanks. I actually made reference to that earlier this evening, but forgot the item in question.

Anyway, we have Orana here, but let me ask this as there is no lore on the subject. How many other children are like her and request Tranquility? This stat would help us as gamers determine the actual danger demons actually are to mage children. 

Inside the Circles, I believe the rates of children facing demon problems are much lower than outside. That being said, there are exceptions like Orana. Perhaps she even had budding Dreamer talents, cause her situation sounds remarkably similar to Feynriel.

Which brings up another point. We know that Dreamers are rare outside of Tevinter because they have a low survival rate.

What if the child-abominations and Orana were actually all dreamers? Wouldn't that mitigate the risk of regular mages almost entirely?

That would mean that normal mages are not that much of a danger. While the powerful one need to be watcher over , guided or even made tranquil.

So the vast majory of mages really don't turn into abombonations!!!

*Inception horn*

 Seems quite plausible doesn't it. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If Conner is indeed a Dreamer, it may explain why the import system tracks whether you killed him or not even though I see no reason why to do so since he is just the son of an Arl.

[Banxey]

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

From what we know, Connor wasn't plagued by nightmares. He wasn't in the same situation of Orana and Fenyerel. We don't know enough about Meredith's sister.
Though dragonflight, I recall that in a precedent page you said that mages aren't aware in the Fade unless they use lyrium. I definitely recall that mages are aware when sleeping, which is the difference with non-mages. Wynne (if I recall) talked about it.

You're right. I was mistaken on that front. Here is a culmination of all Fade knowledge that we know of as of this moment pre-Masked Emperor and Inquisition.

Still, it doesn't talk about how often mage children are tempted by demons, or how often they're possessed. Only that they are the notable exception to everyone else in that they are aware. 

It still seems that unless a mage is a dreamer, they are only is so much danger when they enter the Fade using lyrium or blood magic. Connor may very well have been a dreamer. Heck, he went to Tevinter to study like Feynriel did if he lives past Origins. 

I think Connor was more like Cole. Where something sought him out because he was in fear. Though Cole didn't turn into an abomination, the spirit turned into Cole. 

[Rolling Flame]

Perhaps demons don't seek out children because they don't stand out as much as an adult mage in the Fade, or they don't use magic all that often? I remember Connor saying that he looked through Jowan's books in the hope of finding a cure from Eamon. Perhaps it was the attempt to do 'proper' magic that drew the demon to him?

[dragonflight288]

Rolling Flame wrote...

Perhaps demons don't seek out children because they don't stand out as much as an adult mage in the Fade, or they don't use magic all that often? I remember Connor saying that he looked through Jowan's books in the hope of finding a cure from Eamon. Perhaps it was the attempt to do 'proper' magic that drew the demon to him?

Maybe. Maybe not. Hard to say due to the lack of evidence overall. 

Heck, those books, which Jowan told him not to touch, may have been like Tahrone's tomes for all we know. Although, I simply don't see Jowan as competent enough to do something like that. 

[dragonflight288]

Banxey2 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

From what we know, Connor wasn't plagued by nightmares. He wasn't in the same situation of Orana and Fenyerel. We don't know enough about Meredith's sister.
Though dragonflight, I recall that in a precedent page you said that mages aren't aware in the Fade unless they use lyrium. I definitely recall that mages are aware when sleeping, which is the difference with non-mages. Wynne (if I recall) talked about it.

You're right. I was mistaken on that front. Here is a culmination of all Fade knowledge that we know of as of this moment pre-Masked Emperor and Inquisition.

Still, it doesn't talk about how often mage children are tempted by demons, or how often they're possessed. Only that they are the notable exception to everyone else in that they are aware. 

It still seems that unless a mage is a dreamer, they are only is so much danger when they enter the Fade using lyrium or blood magic. Connor may very well have been a dreamer. Heck, he went to Tevinter to study like Feynriel did if he lives past Origins. 

I think Connor was more like Cole. Where something sought him out because he was in fear. Though Cole didn't turn into an abomination, the spirit turned into Cole. 

Hmm....maybe. Cole is unique in that there are no other spirits/demons like him that we know of. Some of the closest similarities to Cole I can think of is Morrigan's description of Flemeth before Witch Hunt, and even then there are some very big differences. 

Connor isn't like Cole in that I don't think Cole ever had a body, wheras Connor most certainly does and is possessed (from the Fade) by a Desire Demon. 

Cole is unique. Cole simply is, and I don't know what that means about our current knowledge of Fade and demon lore. 

[The Elder King]

@dragonflight288: Indeed, the lore didn't specify how often mage children aree tempted/possessed. Though I recall that Wynne said something about being frightened by the whispers in her sleep. I'd say that the most important thing is to give a mage child knowledge of what he is and what demons are. Not the half-hassed teachins Jowan gave Connor.

I don't know about danger being relevant or high only when in the Fade through lyrium or using blood magic. Thrask's daughter was possessed because she was under stress and was about to get captured. On normal, peaceful condition I'd say fully trained mages might resist demons without much problems. The problem is that there's little chances they're not put under stress in their life. Gaider did say that they didn't do a good job in portraying the danger of being a mage in the games. I'd say we have to wait and see if we'll get more info in the next game/s.

As for Connor, I still don't believe that he's a Dreamer, though there's not enough room to definitely say it.

Modifié par hhh89, 17 février 2014 - 05:49 .

[The Elder King]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

If Conner is indeed a Dreamer, it may explain why the import system tracks whether you killed him or not even though I see no reason why to do so since he is just the son of an Arl.

Connor was supposed to have a cameo in DA2 (there's the voiced dialogues on youtube, I think). The track in the import system might've been related to that.