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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#4001
Lulupab

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This cuts both ways you know- sometimes the leaders of much loved treasons really were thugs or selfish bastards who deserved to be opposed. Cult of the Founding Fathers aside, most modern Americans would probably support the British Empire and its concerns that its colonies should be subject to national law and help pay for defense over secessionists hurting over bigger taxes. (And, even at the time, many did- hence a significant exodux of the colonial population to Canada and elsewhere when the rebels won.)

 

 

Or I am better versed in history: quite a few social movements have succeeded by quietly gathering power and influence before peacefully asserting and pressing for changes, whereas violent revolutionaries just got their cause squashed for a few more years/decades/centuries. The success story of western liberalism isn't one of victorious violent reforms, but the spread of tolerance for peaceful dissent and pressures changing an establishment. Name five social movements in, say, the history of the United States that succeeded through violence and I'll be impressed. I'll even give you a handicap: feel free to claim the American Revolution as one, even though it predates the US.
 

 

If you believe that, sure. I don't- but then, I grew up in a culture in which military service was voluntary, and in which perceptions of conscription were more negative, and I've long since outgrown childish notions such as 'anyone who opposes my righteous cause is the bad guy.'

 

I think many people make a crucial logical mistake. They try to apply the norms of a post merchantile democratic society in a pre-merchantile feudal society. Truly nowadays such an act of terrorism is abhorrent, inexcusable and not an effective carrier of change. People react to exercises of strength or violence in a different manner and a non agressive approach is much more plausible because most of our societies have democratic regimes or even before those at least in the past 3 centuries there was a diffusion of authority because of merchantile strength and the rise of the burgeois against the feudal system. Dragon Age is clearly a feudal society and not a particularly enlightened one politically. The common people have no electoral power and very minor purchasing power. The feudal lords have very limited electoral power which is under the constant censure of military and religious power centers. Ferelden is perhaps further advanced because its existence is in opposition to Orlais; their nationalism is defined in opposition to Orlesian norms and it is well likely that the Orlesians could reclaim it at any moment. Kirkwall is much different. Its viscounts are presented to have ruled under the approval of the chantry and templars. If the common people rebelled against Meredith, she would simply put them down; in fact Leliana makes it pretty clear that the Divine might well put the entire city to the torch.

 

In this balance, one should consider the choice made by Anders. Perhaps change could be accomplished with a moderate approach but it would not take decades, but rather centuries. Not until the economic and political structures could support rights movements would the Mages be able to tap to the concordance of the collective to force political reforms. In this time we are weighing a likely short though violent war against the current situation. Templars do not simply incarcerate mages. There are extensive instances of molestation and rape, constant psychological violence, and the right of tranquility which is not only murder of free will and some sort of slavery but also largely economical exploitation; the skills of the Tranquil in enchantment partly fund the Chantry and the Templars, Mages are oppressed with zero to none cost. All I am saying is, do not compare what Anders did with examples of social reforms in the past century cause there is no analogy. Rather consider any instances of actual social reform taking place peacefully in the Dark Ages.



#4002
Dean_the_Young

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You are mistaken. Intent is the difference between murder and "not guilty." A "sob story" can make the difference between a grand jury returning an indictment or a no-bill. A well-intentioned mistake can be a defense to prosecution (e.g., good samaritan.)

 

I don't want to derail this thread into a discourse on US criminal law, but I'm more than a little bit familiar with the subject and I assure you that you are in error.

 

No, intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter. The jury's willingness to convict is the difference between guilty and not guilty (which, it should also be pointed out, is different from 'actually did it'). The difference between conviction and the crime are two different issues.



#4003
Xilizhra

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The problem at this fundamental level of avoiding mage dominance (or, if you prefer, mage authority and general unaccountability by mundanes) is that there are so few means to preserve the endstate of keeping mages out of power. There are precious few agencies and organizations that can support and enforce a system of segregating mages from power centers: internationally there is only one, the Chantry, while the national analogues (giving the Circles to the crowns) invites other significant problems (like mages being politicized). The issue with integration, the common proposal of liberally-minded Westerners, is that integration opens up the access to accumulating power, and that the magic itself is an extreme advantage for mages as a whole accumulating and gaining power at the expense of mundanes in any competitive environment: economics, politics, military, and so on. Over time mages will gather more power and wealth, be more sympathetic with the interests and viewpoints of other mages, and tolerate those with cirumstances they understand and empathize with over those that are counter to their own. At which point, through degrees, an oligarchy rises.

Which is why the ideal solution is to destroy the boundaries between mage and nonmage, if it can be done. If not... my system's intent is to give mages and nonmages different subsets of societies to live in. I don't believe that an oligarchy of magic is somehow worse than the oligarchies that currently run every single human nation on Thedas, but I don't have too much of an issue with mages not being able to get certain titles when those titles aren't determined by consent of the people anyway. I can work with offices of power being biologically determined, as that's the status quo for nonmages in Thedas anyway, for the time being.

 

This is the self-centered hubris that drives so many attempts to civilize the primitives... and what makes such efforts regular failures. People who fail to understand that social reform comes by the consensus of societies, not the imposition of policy, have such a commendable success record for creating enduring institutions.

I don't think this is completely true; much of the failure of policy imposition in the relatively modern era actually comes from western liberal values themselves, not being inclined to engage in the necessary brutality for it to actually succeed. But in older times, it wasn't uncommon for certain powerful nations to conquer and assimilate weaker ones, and destroy a lot of their own native cultural practices; religion is especially effective at this if you can get conversion to work.

 

Or I am better versed in history: quite a few social movements have succeeded by quietly gathering power and influence before peacefully asserting and pressing for changes, whereas violent revolutionaries just got their cause squashed for a few more years/decades/centuries. The success story of western liberalism isn't one of victorious violent reforms, but the spread of tolerance for peaceful dissent and pressures changing an establishment. Name five social movements in, say, the history of the United States that succeeded through violence and I'll be impressed. I'll even give you a handicap: feel free to claim the American Revolution as one, even though it predates the US.

Forgive me, but this seems like moving the goalposts, since the foundation of the United States came long after whatever vague time period Dragon Age is inspired by. It might work as a critique of of the "western liberalism" thing, but not as an assessment of the need for violence at all. Basically, peaceful means only work when those in power have some reason not to kill you; it works far better for groups that have already been integrated into society as citizens (like free blacks, women and homosexuals) than for groups who've already been cut out of society and can be dealt with as the powers above please if they get uppity (like slaves, whose freedom in America did require a brutal war).

 

Also, we badly need the text of Anders' manifesto, which obviously made the case for mage freedom while only referencing points of view that already existed in-universe.



#4004
Steelcan

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And this is STILL going....

 

Must be the work of blood mages


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#4005
Dean_the_Young

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Magic ability is actually much more akin to sexual orientation, in that it is something you're born with that tends to manifest in adolescence but that can quite often be kept "in the closet" to protect against persecution. I don't want to offend anyone, so I'm not gonna take the comparison any farther, but the point is that a native-born mage can blend in to, for example, Ferelden society much more easily than a Rivaini, or Qunari, or Dalish could, to the point that a mage hunter would have to rely upon blind luck or a mistake on the part of the mage in order to distinguish him from his neighbors.

 

Or, as systematic trends go, following either the larger trail of bodies or the local leaders. Mages hide in current Andrastian society because they aren't integrated: there would be far, far less reason for them to remain hidden if they were integrated.

 

The big difference between magic and sexual preference is the impacts it can have on others, and the ability to suppress it. The danger of sexuality is an unwanted pass: the danger of magic is not only greater, but it can also manifest despite the mage's intent.

 

 

 

Your use of magic as a distinguishing factor applies only when the mage is already known to be a mage.

 

 

True... but so what? Public recognition as a mage isn't what makes magic and mages dangerous. The nature of magic in the DA universe and human corruptability is.

 

 

The closer you are to an integrated society, the less reasons mages will have to avoid recognition and the more they will have to be open about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I would also point out that Merrill seems to identify first as a Dalish, then as a mage. Saarebas seem to identify first as Qunari, then as a dangerous thing. Grey Wardens are Wardens first, then mages, warriors, or rogues. Only when dealing with what has become of Andraste's Cult of the Maker do you find the mage/mundane divide to assume primacy.

 

 

This is true, and I realized it after I left for a workout, but we were talking about the Andrastians were we not? Since they are the ones where this rebellion is occuring? (And Tevinter, whose mage-mundane divide predates the Cult of the Maker.)

 

There are a couple of weaknesses with the appeal to the Qunari and Dalish as well. The Qunari is more obvious: magic is absolutely the dominant factor in where a Qunari mage goes in society. The Qunari treatment of the mages is also a concern- the Qunari make a better case for how even a pan-identity politic won't guarantee free integration for mages.

 

The Dalish works better as a case for how a mage can integrate and identify with a society. What it does not work better as, however, is a case against integration leading to mage dominance. Even ignoring the other parts of Dalish culture that allow it to work: the xenophobi, the migrant lifestyle, the lack of an established urban society- even ignoring that to just look at the mages, the Dalish show a society where mages are raised above and hold power over their fellow group members as part of the dominant tiers. It's uncontroversial and its accepted... and so is the reactive solution to abomination (everyone pick up a  bow and hope we survive), and so are the costs (the occassional clan disappearing, lost forever). We can point at the Dalish accepting the Mages... but in doing so, we will also need to point at the Dalish being ruled by their mages and how these costs are accepted (not required) in large part because of a heavier fear and xenophobia against humans.

 

Not sure that's what we want, but cherry picking elements of societies without considering what makes them work in context would be ignoring those societies, would it not?

 

 

The Wardens are a case of how a organization can be integrated, but it really isn't a good case for a society (unless you want a military state as mission-focused and uninterested in personal liberties, where escape is punishable by death, and overall even less interested in self-determination than the Circles).



#4006
Dean_the_Young

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So is it fair to say that a magocracy would be legitimate if 6 out of 10 children were born with magical ability? If not, what about 9 out of 10?

 

Yup. My support for the opposition to mageocracy in the DA setting comes from the oligarchial context of mageocracy, not the nature of the beast. If someone else were hoping to find hypocrisy by me defending, say, a mundaneocracy in which a tiny minority of mundanes dominate a vast majority of mages, they would be wrong.

 

It really is a matter of degrees: the relative population and the relative threats they can pose. If mages were less dangerous,

 

 

 

 

Also, what makes the ability to master magic a less legitimate criteria for rulership than, for example, a gift for military strategy, or an uncommonly strong sword arm? Each characteristic will be found in only a small percentage of the population, but you seem to have no problem with the "normal" people being dominated by gifted warriors. Is it just that you are conditioned to accept that by the history of your own society?

 

 

The exclusionary restrictions of the majority of the population group that not only don't have the trait, but can't. Anyone can have the potential for being a military strategy: only people who are already mage-born can have the potential to master magic.



#4007
Mistic

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The Dalish works better as a case for how a mage can integrate and identify with a society. What it does not work better as, however, is a case against integration leading to mage dominance. Even ignoring the other parts of Dalish culture that allow it to work: the xenophobi, the migrant lifestyle, the lack of an established urban society- even ignoring that to just look at the mages, the Dalish show a society where mages are raised above and hold power over their fellow group members as part of the dominant tiers. It's uncontroversial and its accepted... and so is the reactive solution to abomination (everyone pick up a  bow and hope we survive), and so are the costs (the occassional clan disappearing, lost forever). We can point at the Dalish accepting the Mages... but in doing so, we will also need to point at the Dalish being ruled by their mages and how these costs are accepted (not required) in large part because of a heavier fear and xenophobia against humans.

 

I think that the Dalish's acceptance of their mages comes from their nomadic and tribal lifestyle, so we can't ignore it when talking about their mages. In those kinds of societies, effective power is more balanced and class differences are incidental at worst. Even a mage has to, as Legion said, "build consensus" instead of "imposing consensus".

 

However, in a urban society, that would be impossible, since there are too many subjects and the priviledged have more power to keep those priviledges. In Tevinter, that means magocracy. In other lands, means feudal systems. The only thing that could make that situation more palatable would be a common driving force, like religion or nationalism. I really want to know what people from Tevinter think of their Chantry and their nation. We at least know that they tend to prefer the empire over the Qunari, but that's not saying much.

 

Only the Grey Wardens have achieved true integration, but in an organization full of badass with darkspawn powers magic is not as impressive or dangerous as in a normal society. But unless someone proposes to make everyone a Warden... (Wait! The Architect?).



#4008
EmperorSahlertz

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You are mistaken. Intent is the difference between murder and "not guilty." A "sob story" can make the difference between a grand jury returning an indictment or a no-bill. A well-intentioned mistake can be a defense to prosecution (e.g., good samaritan.)

 

I don't want to derail this thread into a discourse on US criminal law, but I'm more than a little bit familiar with the subject and I assure you that you are in error.

Intent MAY be the difference between murder and manslaughter. Just because you didn't intent to kill someone, does NOT mean you get off scott free.



#4009
SeekerOfLight

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First off a mage/templar thread over 200 pages and still going... well done folks. I never thought i'ld see the day honestly :D .



#4010
Xilizhra

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Intent MAY be the difference between murder and manslaughter. Just because you didn't intent to kill someone, does NOT mean you get off scott free.

I think manslaughter requires some degree of either negligence or intent. For instance, if you're walking on a mountain, trip over a rock, and start an avalanche, I don't think it would lead to a manslaughter charge; similarly, I don't think one would apply if you ran over someone who darted out from behind a parked car the instant you were driving past it.



#4011
EmperorSahlertz

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I think manslaughter requires some degree of either negligence or intent. For instance, if you're walking on a mountain, trip over a rock, and start an avalanche, I don't think it would lead to a manslaughter charge; similarly, I don't think one would apply if you ran over someone who darted out from behind a parked car the instant you were driving past it.

You wouldn't be accused of anything either, unless there was evidence to suggest that you intentionally started the avalanche. Otherwise it would be an act of nature and you wouldn't be to blame.

 

However, in the case of a more plausible manslaughter charge, look at a common barfight. The two persons fighting eachother may not ahve intended to kill eachother, but if one of them does end up dead, the killer can be accused of manslaughter.



#4012
Xilizhra

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You wouldn't be accused of anything either, unless there was evidence to suggest that you intentionally started the avalanche. Otherwise it would be an act of nature and you wouldn't be to blame.

 

However, in the case of a more plausible manslaughter charge, look at a common barfight. The two persons fighting eachother may not ahve intended to kill eachother, but if one of them does end up dead, the killer can be accused of manslaughter.

There may not have been intent to kill, but there was intent to harm, which is why it could earn a manslaughter charge. If there's no intent to harm and no negligence--i.e. nothing you could reasonably have done or known about would have changed things--it wouldn't be such.



#4013
SeekerOfLight

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In DA, my primary gripe has been the issue of responsibility.

 

The chantry puts forward that mages need to use their powers responsibly and that the consequences if they don't will be tranquility or death. However, my position is that the current state of relations between the chantry and mages is a direct of institutional failure on the part of the chantry, particularly the Seekers of truth whose job it is to 'watch the watchers'.

 

In both DAO and DA2 the circle system that we are shown is one where mages must prove their right to exist as they are. They must prove through the harrowing that they can resist demons, they must prove their right to live by only studying schools of magic that the chantry allows.

 

Yet, we have yet to see the same on the templars. In DA2, Meredith as a representative of an ecclesitastical power with a great deal of influence in Kirkwall used her influence to control the government. This was blatantly illegal, her authority extends only to circle and mages within Kirkwall, not over Kirkwall itself.

 

Yet we have seen no evidence that the Chantry authorities even tried to deal with the obvious power grab that Meredith had done.

 

In Origins, Ser Ryloc, illegally tried to arrest Anders even after he became a warden, with the GW commander, who at the time was also Arl/Arlessa of Amaranthine.

 

We have had yet to see or read in the codex of templars being officially held responsible for illegal actions against their charges. Templars such as Ser Alrik and Kerras, cannot be the only corrupt ones in the order.

 

This is my problem with the chantry. They claim it is 'their divine right' to watch mages for signs of corruption, yet seem to fail miserably for signs of corruption in themselves. Or at the very least the part of the institution that is supposed to watch for corruption is spectacularly bad at their jobs.

 

An institution cannot merely claim to be just, it must be seen to be just. And though I admit to the necessary role that the templars play as protectors from magic, the fact that the institution that is supposed to regulate them is one of my main reasons for not supporting the Chantry.



#4014
durasteel

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No, intent is the difference between murder and manslaughter. The jury's willingness to convict is the difference between guilty and not guilty (which, it should also be pointed out, is different from 'actually did it'). The difference between conviction and the crime are two different issues.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "the jury's willingness to convict." In a modern criminal trial, the jury is provided with a legal definition of a crime and asked to determine whether the defendant's conduct--including culpable mental state--fits that definition. The jury might also receive the definitions of lesser included crimes and be asked to determine if the defendant's conduct matches one or none of them.

 

For example, A stabs B in the throat, and B dies. That is the effect and its cause, and those facts are not questioned or challenged by A. To grossly oversimplify: if the jury finds that A was in reasonable fear of attack by B, then A is not guilty. If the jury finds that A was negligently walking around in the dark waving a knife around when he knew or should have known that B was present, then A is guilty of manslaughter. If A intentionally stabbed to kill B on a whim, or in the heat of the moment, then A is guilty of 2nd degree murder. If A set up these events as part of a plan to kill B, then A is guilty of 1st degree murder.

 

In this circumstance, the elements of who, what, when, where, and how are all known. The existence of a crime, as well as the nature and degree of the crime, are all determined by the jury's determination of one fact: the intent of the killer.

 

Conviction defines crime. It is the difference between a killer and a murderer, between a taker and a thief. One of the most important elements of any crime, which must be found as fact by the jury, is the accused's culpable mental state, aka "intent."



#4015
durasteel

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I think manslaughter requires some degree of either negligence or intent. For instance, if you're walking on a mountain, trip over a rock, and start an avalanche, I don't think it would lead to a manslaughter charge; similarly, I don't think one would apply if you ran over someone who darted out from behind a parked car the instant you were driving past it.

 

At the risk of getting too technical, if you were trespassing or ignoring a posted avalanche warning, then your violation or negligence might support a charge of manslaughter. 

 

If you are speeding, driving while intoxicated, texting while driving, etc., then your violation or negligence might support a charge of manslaughter or, in certain jurisdictions, "negligent homicide."



#4016
renfrees

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Magic ability is actually much more akin to sexual orientation, in that it is something you're born with that tends to manifest in adolescence but that can quite often be kept "in the closet" to protect against persecution. I don't want to offend anyone, so I'm not gonna take the comparison any farther, but the point is that a native-born mage can blend in to, for example, Ferelden society much more easily than a Rivaini, or Qunari, or Dalish could, to the point that a mage hunter would have to rely upon blind luck or a mistake on the part of the mage in order to distinguish him from his neighbors.

It's as i thought and already voiced - stop comparing Thedas mages with oppressed groups in our world. Different skin color or intimate interests doesn't have the power to harm, kill or bend the will of another. There is no example for mages in our societies.


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#4017
Divine Justinia V

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I am exhausted for you guys.


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#4018
KaiserShep

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I am exhausted for you guys.


I gave up. Someone broke out entropy on me.

#4019
LobselVith8

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And this is STILL going....

 

Must be the work of blood mages

 

At least it's taking place in one single thread. Back in the day, there were usually multiple threads (at one point there were even five) having the discussion about mages and templars in the same forum.


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#4020
Lotion Soronarr

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In this balance, one should consider the choice made by Anders. Perhaps change could be accomplished with a moderate approach but it would not take decades, but rather centuries. Not until the economic and political structures could support rights movements would the Mages be able to tap to the concordance of the collective to force political reforms. In this time we are weighing a likely short though violent war against the current situation. Templars do not simply incarcerate mages. There are extensive instances of molestation and rape, constant psychological violence, and the right of tranquility which is not only murder of free will and some sort of slavery but also largely economical exploitation; the skills of the Tranquil in enchantment partly fund the Chantry and the Templars, Mages are oppressed with zero to none cost. All I am saying is, do not compare what Anders did with examples of social reforms in the past century cause there is no analogy. Rather consider any instances of actual social reform taking place peacefully in the Dark Ages.

 

http://www.youtube.c...detailpage#t=45

 

 

This sums it up, because you ARE wrong about those parts.

The profits of the tranqul go to the Circle. Circle economy is independant and their internal governing is done by mages.

 

there is little else to be said.



#4021
Star fury

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I am exhausted for you guys.

That's a problem of mega-threads such as this. Any sensible posts will be drawn in a sea of bad posts and trolling.



#4022
durasteel

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It's as i thought and already voiced - stop comparing Thedas mages with oppressed groups in our world. Different skin color or intimate interests doesn't have the power to harm, kill or bend the will of another. There is no example for mages in our societies.

 

There are ways in which mages can be validly compared to real-world oppressed groups, and there are ways in which those comparisons do not hold up. Similarly, there are valid comparisons for the Chantry, and for the Templars... and those comparisons have limits. To say that there is nothing whatsoever to compare between mages and any oppressed minority on Earth is just asinine.

 

Almost all elements of the world of Thedas and its denizens incorporate references to real-world places, people, and events. Almost none of it is a direct transcription of Earth history, but relating it back provides context.

 

If comparing mages to some real-world group that has been oppressed, rounded up and interred in a concentration camp, or stripped of all liberty makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe that's a good thing--maybe you should re-evaluate your willingness to call for even a fictional group of people to be treated that way, because the BS arguments you roll out to support the subjugation of a fictional group in a fictional world are, in essence, the same arguments that have been used throughout recorded history in the real world to justify pogroms, witch hunts, genocide, and other things that make the history of our species more interesting than we might like it to be.



#4023
durasteel

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http://www.youtube.c...detailpage#t=45

 

 

This sums it up, because you ARE wrong about those parts.

The profits of the tranqul go to the Circle. Circle economy is independant and their internal governing is done by mages.

 

there is little else to be said.

 

What does the Chantry charge for lyrium? What part of a Circle's income, on average, must be spent to garrison and feed Templars? If the ability of any mage to congregate or even leave his or her quarters is a privilege that the Templars may suspend at any time, then even if the mages are tasked with administration of Circle business it is inaccurate to say they are self-governed.



#4024
The Baconer

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Besides all the different ways to make smoke without fire, there's also the issue of how a fire starts. You are taking the mere existence as fire as proof for how it was started, which is wrong.

 

The Last Straw really doesn't confirm anything about how Meredith was acting seven years earlier. Meredith wasn't acting the same throughout the course of the story.

 

I didn't invent the saying.

 

I use the Last Straw as an example that her methods, that met fierce opposition from both inside and outside the Templar order, continuously failed to protect the city from magic, culminating in the destruction of the Chantry by a known apostate and associate of the champion, even if the champion gives them clear warning.

 

 

And mages are disappearing for a variety of reasons: some are victims of Templar 'disappearance', presumably, but some are escapees, some are transfers, some just die for non-malevolent reasons, and some are simply unsubstantiated rumors. Given how unsubstantiated the claims are, we have virtually nothing to go on: they're about as developed as the Templar's own rumors that the surrounded the abducted Templar recruits.

 

Transfers and deaths in the Circle would be put on record. And neither does that address Tranquil appearing without explanation. If it is within Alrik's power to forge records, then again that brings the effectiveness of the Templar presence in Kirkwall into question.

 

Er, right. I've said that. Meredith is obstructed. She faces costs and challenges to enforcing the Circle system, and as a result has to select the order and nature of her battles less she be even more obstructed. If she didn't face political obstruction and challenges she couldn't overcome by fiat alone we never would have gone to Kirkwall in the first place, betting on exploiting nobility corruption obstructing the Templars.

 

And yet, she became even more obstructed, through her own methods. She wants to send a message that the corruption that afforded mages shelter in the past will not be tolerated, but is yet so cowed that she will not arrest the Champion, or even bring him in for questioning regarding his companions. So, in her seizure of Kirkwall, how do the short-term gains compare to the eventual consequences? It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that (especially now that she possesses the red Lyrium blade), if The Last Straw were to never happen, that the people of Kirkwall would attempt to remove the Templars from their city once again, or that she would be killed by her own men in an increasingly fractured Order.

 

Yes. And the next question is... so what? Any counter-insurgency operation understands that challenging insurgent support zones prompts heightened opposition.

 

From the perspective of any non-voluntary enforcement agency, especially military-style organizations like the Templars, making your mission accomplishment dependent on the absence of opposition is idiocy. It is an expected and accepted cost, and the approval of the opposition is not the goal: their marginalization and inability to stop you is. Simply because opponents will fight more directly when they have more to lose doesn't mean they weren't opponents in the first place.

 

But they weren't marginalized in their ability to stop her, especially if one of her potential opponents happens to be the champion, or the very knights serving under her. When she is forced to ask Hawke to track down three escaped mages (again, a result of her demolishing whatever was left of the Order's relations with the people), she relies entirely on his good word that he doesn't just, say, orchestrate their escape from the city while claiming to slay them. That she must play from such a position of weakness in this situation is her own fault. We should also consider that she likely had some sympathizers or allies among the nobility, before she alienated them.

 

This assumes Anders was on Meredith's radar in a significant way in Act 1, when he was new to the city. By the time of Act 2, association with Hawke is enough to get him involved under the political umbrella that the Kirkwall corruption allows nobles to offer. The same in Act 3, when Hawke's status as the Champion has made them virtually untouchable.

 

(...)

 

Addressed' isn't a synonym for 'solved,' you know. As for foiling internal checks for a few years being a long time- I won't quibble on your perception. I also won't quibble that more should have been done, but I've never denied Meredith's priorities differ from mine.

 

Of course, we know virtually nothing about the internal workings of the Templars and Circles within the seven years to claim what was and was not attempted, but who cares.

 

I'm not assuming he was in Act 1, hence the if/when. But for Meredith to believe that he was untouchable (unless you were just referring to Hawke, in which case, disregard this) is an active refusal to carry out her Templar duties.

 

 

Fair enough.

 



#4025
TheKomandorShepard

TheKomandorShepard
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There are ways in which mages can be validly compared to real-world oppressed groups, and there are ways in which those comparisons do not hold up. Similarly, there are valid comparisons for the Chantry, and for the Templars... and those comparisons have limits. To say that there is nothing whatsoever to compare between mages and any oppressed minority on Earth is just asinine.

 

Almost all elements of the world of Thedas and its denizens incorporate references to real-world places, people, and events. Almost none of it is a direct transcription of Earth history, but relating it back provides context.

 

If comparing mages to some real-world group that has been oppressed, rounded up and interred in a concentration camp, or stripped of all liberty makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe that's a good thing--maybe you should re-evaluate your willingness to call for even a fictional group of people to be treated that way, because the BS arguments you roll out to support the subjugation of a fictional group in a fictional world are, in essence, the same arguments that have been used throughout recorded history in the real world to justify pogroms, witch hunts, genocide, and other things that make the history of our species more interesting than we might like it to be.

 

What there is a little to compare because in all cases it were prejudices on religious or racial level when reasons behind treatment that mages recive are real not "he is black so he is son of devil!" mages are dangerous for entire world so they are treated as such they already have better treatment than in reality they would recive.