8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

What does the Chantry charge for lyrium? What part of a Circle's income, on average, must be spent to garrison and feed Templars?

 

As far as I know, nothing.

The Chantry is the one that pays for the templars, not the Circles.

 

 

If the ability of any mage to congregate or even leave his or her quarters is a privilege that the Templars may suspend at any time, then even if the mages are tasked with administration of Circle business it is inaccurate to say they are self-governed.

 

Laughable.

So if the police can put a politician in jail or house arrest, that means that there is no self-governance?

[durasteel]

As far as I know, nothing.

The Chantry is the one that pays for the templars, not the Circles.

 

Laughable.

So if the police can put a politician in jail or house arrest, that means that there is no self-governance?

 

So, you're guessing. That's what I suspected, I was just checking.

 

A citizen or politician in a modern society has rights. Not just privileges, but rights. In America, for example, the right to liberty or the right to peaceably assemble may only be suspended or removed through due process of law. The police may place a politician under house arrest only under the order of a judge, interpreting laws enacted by a legislature.

 

In Thedas, a mage in the circle of magi--or all mages in the circle, for that matter--may be deprived of privileges (there are no rights) by the Knight-Commander of the Templars at a whim, for any reason or no reason at all.

 

See the difference?

[Tric]

There are ways in which mages can be validly compared to real-world oppressed groups, and there are ways in which those comparisons do not hold up. Similarly, there are valid comparisons for the Chantry, and for the Templars... and those comparisons have limits. To say that there is nothing whatsoever to compare between mages and any oppressed minority on Earth is just asinine.

 

Almost all elements of the world of Thedas and its denizens incorporate references to real-world places, people, and events. Almost none of it is a direct transcription of Earth history, but relating it back provides context.

 

If comparing mages to some real-world group that has been oppressed, rounded up and interred in a concentration camp, or stripped of all liberty makes you feel uncomfortable, maybe that's a good thing--maybe you should re-evaluate your willingness to call for even a fictional group of people to be treated that way, because the BS arguments you roll out to support the subjugation of a fictional group in a fictional world are, in essence, the same arguments that have been used throughout recorded history in the real world to justify pogroms, witch hunts, genocide, and other things that make the history of our species more interesting than we might like it to be.

BS and asinine is your comparison, BS, asinine and insulting.

 

The Circle is nothing like a concentration camp, mages are not comparable to real life minorities.

 

All of the examples you give were empty fears, fearing that a mage will kill you without even touching you or using a weapon is not, fearing that a mage will turn into an abomination is not.

All the tragedies you enumerated were done on people who did not have the natural ability to cast fireballs or become possessed by a demon. Mages are feared, and rightfully so, but they are not treated like they're not people unlike the groups who were and are target of those horrors that you use for shock value to defend a fictional minority of magic users that can summon storms and control minds. Hate crimes on homosexuals, women, people of colour and so forth still occur to this day and you compare real people who have been emptily villainized to a fictional group that can cause the destruction of a village or death of 72 people even as children without meaning to?

 

Not only are the reasons why real life minorities are feared/hated completely senseless, specially when compared to those why mages are, mages are not even shown as being treated like them. Even in Kirkwall.

 

They are not victims of "corrective" rape, beatings and being tied to poles before being killed, sold for slavery for being considered less than others, there are no gas chambers, being subjected to vivisections, being used as test subjects. LEGALLY.

 

Mages are feared by the people they can easily kill without lifting a finger. There is absolutely no way for mages to live in normal society with non-mages, not without a way for any random person, or at least guard, to easily cancel their power in a moment of danger and to keep demons away from them/stop possession from occurring, not without accepting the dozens of deaths an abomination can cause as natural and simply live with it.

 

I reiterate, do not compare the struggles of real people to those of a fictional minority that are born with the capacity to change reality and control minds.

 

 

 

[edit] If this sounds angry it's because these comparisons make me angry. My family, my friends, my loved ones are feared for no reason and you compare them to people with magical powers who can become literal monsters even without meaning to and are the constant or near-constant target of demonic influence.

Modifié par Tric, 06 mars 2014 - 09:41 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

^If you don't like reading that, why do you read threads that will involve that?

[EmperorSahlertz]

 

So, you're guessing. That's what I suspected, I was just checking.

 

A citizen or politician in a modern society has rights. Not just privileges, but rights. In America, for example, the right to liberty or the right to peaceably assemble may only be suspended or removed through due process of law. The police may place a politician under house arrest only under the order of a judge, interpreting laws enacted by a legislature.

 

In Thedas, a mage in the circle of magi--or all mages in the circle, for that matter--may be deprived of privileges (there are no rights) by the Knight-Commander of the Templars at a whim, for any reason or no reason at all.

 

See the difference?

 

That is a lie. Meredith was powerless to prevent Orsino from blocking her search of the Mage quarters.

[Tric]

^If you don't like reading that, why do you read threads that will involve that?

This is the first time in this thread I've read this comparison, saying that mages are oppressed is not something I disagree with, within the DA universe or outside, saying they are comparable to minorities in real life is a whole different thing.

 

Mages have a fundamental difference, their powers that make them wholly different from any real life minority and as such can not be compared.

[The Baconer]

That is a lie. Meredith was powerless to prevent Orsino from blocking her search of the Mage quarters.

 

No she wasn't. Not that I necessarily agree with durasteel's post.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

This is the first time in this thread I've read this comparison, saying that mages are oppressed is not something I disagree with, within the DA universe or outside, saying they are comparable to minorities in real life is a whole different thing.

 

Mages have a fundamental difference, their powers that make them wholly different from any real life minority and as such can not be compared.

I think it's more they are using real world examples to convey how the mages are oppressed. 

 

I don't like it either, but it seems to be a more effective way of conveying their opinions since nobody really feels anything for pixels yet when shined in the light of real events, they may care more. Just my guess, anyway.

[EmperorSahlertz]

No she wasn't. Not that I necessarily agree with durasteel's post.

That must be why she went ahead with the search anyway... Oh wait... She didn't.... She was more busy preventing Orsino from going to the Grand Cleric with news of the breach of rights.

[Tric]

I think it's more they are using real world examples to convey how the mages are oppressed. 

 

I don't like it either, but it seems to be a more effective way of conveying their opinions since nobody really feels anything for pixels yet when shined in the light of real events, they may care more. Just my guess, anyway.

That's the problem for me.

 

The central reason why mages are feared and treated like they are in the universe (either placed in positions of power or Circles) is based on something that no struggling minority in our world has. And although both mages and real life minorities have received accusations of suffering from demonic influence only in the mages' case is this real and, at times, with disastrous results.

[The Baconer]

That must be why she went ahead with the search anyway... Oh wait... She didn't.... She was more busy preventing Orsino from going to the Grand Cleric with news of the breach of rights.

 

That was her decision to act out of respect to Elthina, but it's not like Meredith would actually require her permission to search the Circle.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

That's the problem for me.

 

The central reason why mages are feared and treated like they are in the universe (either placed in positions of power or Circles) is based on something that no struggling minority in our world has. And although both mages and real life minorities have received accusations of suffering from demonic influence only in the mages' case is this real and, at times, with disastrous results.

Well, to be fair we have had witch hunts in our history which resulted in many innocent people being killed because others believed they had magical powers and would curse them. However in Thedas the magic actually exists. So comparing them to those people I can see being appropriate since both are in essense witch hunts.

[Tric]

^ Basically, yeah. In one case it was wrongful belief, in another it's "reality".

[durasteel]

...

 

The Circle is nothing like a concentration camp, mages are not comparable to real life minorities.

 

...

 

You are mistaken if you think there are not valid comparisons. I understand why you would reach the conclusions you have reached, and hold the position that you hold, because of the emotionally charged nature of the comparisons, but I do not agree with you.

 

Yes, mages are capable of things great and terrible, both intentionally and by accident. Nevertheless, the fear and paranoia created by the Chantry goes way, way beyond any reasonable measure of concern. This paranoia drives a campaign of persecution against the mages of Andrastean Thedas that follows the same model, uses the same concepts, and in some instances borrows terminology from real world historical oppressive regimes.

 

When people who have committed no crime are deprived of life and liberty because the masses are afraid, things tend to follow patterns, both in the history of the real world and in entirely fictional narratives. It is, to a large degree, unavoidable. Whether the fear is entirely baseless or simply whipped into a frenzy doesn't change the pattern very much.

[durasteel]

^ Basically, yeah. In one case it was wrongful belief, in another it's "reality".

 

One is a real belief in a fiction, the other is a fictional belief in a fictional reality. They are not the same, but they can be compared.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You are mistaken if you think there are not valid comparisons. I understand why you would reach the conclusions you have reached, and hold the position that you hold, because of the emotionally charged nature of the comparisons, but I do not agree with you.

 

Yes, mages are capable of things great and terrible, both intentionally and by accident. Nevertheless, the fear and paranoia created by the Chantry goes way, way beyond any reasonable measure of concern. This paranoia drives a campaign of persecution against the mages of Andrastean Thedas that follows the same model, uses the same concepts, and in some instances borrows terminology from real world historical oppressive regimes.

 

When people who have committed no crime are deprived of life and liberty because the masses are afraid, things tend to follow patterns, both in the history of the real world and in entirely fictional narratives. It is, to a large degree, unavoidable. Whether the fear is entirely baseless or simply whipped into a frenzy doesn't change the pattern very much.

 

I love hear like paranoia was caused by chantry despite mages screwd so many things there is no rly need to create paranoia peoples would burn them themselves when they would... oh gosh i love hear pro-mages crying about that how chantry is responsible for peoples fearing and hating mages when we have a lot examples that mages caused a lot disasters...

[EmperorSahlertz]

That was her decision to act out of respect to Elthina, but it's not like Meredith would actually require her permission to search the Circle.

No. She would require the permission of Orsino to search the Circle.

[durasteel]

No. She would require the permission of Orsino to search the Circle.

Given the fact that Lambert needed no one's permission to lock down the White Spire, I doubt it.

[Tric]

You are mistaken if you think there are not valid comparisons. I understand why you would reach the conclusions you have reached, and hold the position that you hold, because of the emotionally charged nature of the comparisons, but I do not agree with you.

 

Yes, mages are capable of things great and terrible, both intentionally and by accident. Nevertheless, the fear and paranoia created by the Chantry goes way, way beyond any reasonable measure of concern. This paranoia drives a campaign of persecution against the mages of Andrastean Thedas that follows the same model, uses the same concepts, and in some instances borrows terminology from real world historical oppressive regimes.

 

When people who have committed no crime are deprived of life and liberty because the masses are afraid, things tend to follow patterns, both in the history of the real world and in entirely fictional narratives. It is, to a large degree, unavoidable. Whether the fear is entirely baseless or simply whipped into a frenzy doesn't change the pattern very much.

Sincerely, I'd advice not to use emotionally charged comparisons. Specially not when discussing super powered people.

 

And I don't agree that they can be compared, not in any way other than "they're not treated like the majority" and such. Mages represent a true danger, as unfortunate as it may be, a danger that must be taken into account when we analyse the origin of this system of fear and oppression of mages and when attempting to find a way to change it and what to change it into.

Likewise we should take in account the history of the setting in question. Thedas was for a long time under the influence of a brutal rule by mages, this leaves marks.

 

And in what ways do you consider that the Chantry has been showing the danger mages can represent unreasonably, exactly? If I may ask.

[Master Warder Z_]

Given the fact that Lambert needed no one's permission to lock down the White Spire, I doubt it.

 

Given he actually only answers to one person (The physical head of the religion) i'd say he has far more authority then a mere knight commander.

[KaiserShep]

No. She would require the permission of Orsino to search the Circle.

I can't help but think that under certain circumstances the Knight-Commander should be able to overrule that.

[durasteel]

...

 

And in what ways do you consider that the Chantry has been showing the danger mages cand and/or might represent unreasonable, exactly? If I may ask.

 

Because the Dragon Age media (games, books, comics) portray "apostates" in a way much different than the Chantry's rhetoric. The Chantry (and many of the 'pro-Templar' posters in this thread) would have you believe that a mage living free of the Circle is bound to become possessed and the resulting abomination will lay waste to the countryside. We haven't seen it.

 

Sure, we've heard about adolescent mages awakening to their power and harming themselves and others, but it should be noted that those stories took place within populations that fall under the Circle system, not among apostate groups.

 

There are places on Thedas without the Chantry, and in at least some of those places there is no paranoia regarding mages. Everyone acknowledges that mages have powerful abilities, but they don't have the irrational fear that the Chantry's dogma creates in Andraste's flock. Rivain is a good example--the seers live in and with Rivaini society as they have for thousands of years, and that society wants to keep that arrangement intact and is resisting the Chantry's efforts to "save" them from the threat of their mages.

 

What's interesting is comparing the Circle mages and their Templars with the Saarebas and their Arvaraads. Both the Chantry system and the Qunari policy apply the same fix to the same issue, but the Circle tries to veil it in civility while the Qunari are ruthlessly efficient. In both instances the mage is stripped entirely of liberty and allowed only to act at the handler's discretion. Both are "dehumanized" (an odd phrase to use when applied to non-humans, I concede) and treated as an object--a dangerous thing. I find it incredibly audacious for supporters of the Circle to criticize the Qunari policy as barbaric.

[The Baconer]

No. She would require the permission of Orsino to search the Circle.

 

Officially, maybe (this is never outright stated to be a requirement). In reality, not really.

[durasteel]

Given he actually only answers to one person (The physical head of the religion) i'd say he has far more authority then a mere knight commander.

 

Of course he does. Lambert used that authority to dismiss Knight Commander Eron and take over the duties of Knight-Commander of the White Spire for himself. It is in that capacity, in the discharge of those duties, that he locks down the tower.

[Master Warder Z_]

Of course he does. Lambert used that authority to dismiss Knight Commander Eron and take over the duties of Knight-Commander of the White Spire for himself. It is in that capacity, in the discharge of those duties, that he locks down the tower.

 

That seems like a leap of logic to me.

 

Just because he did that in official capacity doesn't automatically equate it with it being a power vested in and of it self with the Knight Commander.