8640 réponses à ce sujet

[durasteel]

That seems like a leap of logic to me.

 

Just because he did that in official capacity doesn't automatically equate it with it being a power vested in and of it self with the Knight Commander.

It's a pretty short leap.

 

The Lord High Seeker Dude doesn't have the job of overseeing day-to-day operations of a Circle. That's the Knight-Commander's job. If the LHS is running the day-to-day operation of a circle, he is therefore doing the KC's job. The fact that Lambert kicked Eron out of the chair and sat in it himself underscores the point rather nicely.

[eyezonlyii]

Because the Dragon Age media (games, books, comics) portray "apostates" in a way much different than the Chantry's rhetoric. The Chantry (and many of the 'pro-Templar' posters in this thread) would have you believe that a mage living free of the Circle is bound to become possessed and the resulting abomination will lay waste to the countryside. We haven't seen it.

 

Sure, we've heard about adolescent mages awakening to their power and harming themselves and others, but it should be noted that those stories took place within populations that fall under the Circle system, not among apostate groups.

 

There are places on Thedas without the Chantry, and in at least some of those places there is no paranoia regarding mages. Everyone acknowledges that mages have powerful abilities, but they don't have the irrational fear that the Chantry's dogma creates in Andraste's flock. Rivain is a good example--the seers live in and with Rivaini society as they have for thousands of years, and that society wants to keep that arrangement intact and is resisting the Chantry's efforts to "save" them from the threat of their mages.

 

What's interesting is comparing the Circle mages and their Templars with the Saarebas and their Arvaraads. Both the Chantry system and the Qunari policy apply the same fix to the same issue, but the Circle tries to veil it in civility while the Qunari are ruthlessly efficient. In both instances the mage is stripped entirely of liberty and allowed only to act at the handler's discretion. Both are "dehumanized" (an odd phrase to use when applied to non-humans, I concede) and treated as an object--a dangerous thing. I find it incredibly audacious for supporters of the Circle to criticize the Qunari policy as barbaric.

 

 

This also brings up the fact that there were mages long before there was a Chantry and obviously life went on beforehand. The Circle doesn't exist to protect people from the dangers of abominations, it exists merely as a way to make sure there can never be another Tevinter again. 

 

Also, how do Templar abilities work? As far as I know, they haven't really gone into detail, and to me that is another issue with the uneven presentation. We know how mana and magic are used, and we know the consequences and danger thereof, but the only thing we know is that Templar abilities stop magic, and apparently require lyrium to do so (despite Alistair saying otherwise). 

[Master Warder Z_]

It's a pretty short leap.

 

The Lord High Seeker Dude doesn't have the job of overseeing day-to-day operations of a Circle. That's the Knight-Commander's job. If the LHS is running the day-to-day operation of a circle, he is therefore doing the KC's job. The fact that Lambert kicked Eron out of the chair and sat in it himself underscores the point rather nicely.

 

If you say so.

 

Given we don't have a complete understanding of the duties and powers invested with the Order in so far as Rank.

 

It's no a shorter a leap to assume that Lambert had the power to put the circle into quarantine within his own office of responsibility once an issue like the murders came to attention.

 

Furthermore we don't know the process through which a Knight Commander need go to achieve the same, but i doubt it would be handled in the same fashion Lambert achieved. Considering that if we go by the situation of DA 2 and DAO the local head of the Chantry was involved in both day to day and policy enactment in the circle.

 

To me it would be no great assumption to merely point out that likely the Knight Commander in question couldn't request it to be done but only be granted via the Chantry.

[Master Warder Z_]

This also brings up the fact that there were mages long before there was a Chantry and obviously life went on beforehand. The Circle doesn't exist to protect people from the dangers of abominations, it exists merely as a way to make sure there can never be another Tevinter again. 

 

Also, how do Templar abilities work? As far as I know, they haven't really gone into detail, and to me that is another issue with the uneven presentation. We know how mana and magic are used, and we know the consequences and danger thereof, but the only thing we know is that Templar abilities stop magic, and apparently require lyrium to do so (despite Alistair saying otherwise). 

 

According to in series Lore Pre Circle mages did in fact get possessed just like their modern day circle counterparts. So i'd assume that the circle system was installed to prevent that among other reasons.

[The Elder King]

It should be noted that Asunder made pretty clear that the condition in the Cirlces worsened after the events of Kirkwall.

[durasteel]

Sincerely, I'd advice not to use emotionally charged comparisons. Specially not when discussing super powered people.

 

...

 

You don't have to read very far back in this thread to see examples of posts that advocate rounding all the mages up and killing them. Posts that advocate setting them--and anyone who shelters them--on fire. Concessions that it might be a good idea to keep a few alive to help fight the blights, but only those who submit willingly and completely--kill the rest.

 

If you accept the possibility of those policies and move on to discussing how and why they are wrong, then in that fictional reality those "super powers" are meaningless. 

 

I stand by my comparisons.

[Tric]

Let's see if I can figure out how to work these quotes.

Because the Dragon Age media (games, books, comics) portray "apostates" in a way much different than the Chantry's rhetoric. The Chantry (and many of the 'pro-Templar' posters in this thread) would have you believe that a mage living free of the Circle is bound to become possessed and the resulting abomination will lay waste to the countryside. We haven't seen it.

 

Sure, we've heard about adolescent mages awakening to their power and harming themselves and others, but it should be noted that those stories took place within populations that fall under the Circle system, not among apostate groups.

 

Do you mean that we haven't seen apostates turning into abominations in large numbers (so to say since mages are rare and apostates in Andrastean nations even more so, I believe) or do you mean that we haven't seen them ravaging the countryside?

 

I recall off the top of my head at least one abomination in Origins that was an apostate being taught by apostates that we end up having to hunt and kill when their former master fails to do so.

 

 

There are places on Thedas without the Chantry, and in at least some of those places there is no paranoia regarding mages. Everyone acknowledges that mages have powerful abilities, but they don't have the irrational fear that the Chantry's dogma creates in Andraste's flock. Rivain is a good example--the seers live in and with Rivaini society as they have for thousands of years, and that society wants to keep that arrangement intact and is resisting the Chantry's efforts to "save" them from the threat of their mages.

I'm not sure if Rivain is that good of an example, really, for them abominations are just a fact of life.

 

In Rivain abominations are treated nearly like natural disasters. They happen, they end, the survivors mourn their dead, the survivors go on with their lives.

This is something that the Circles exist (at least in theory) to stop abominations from becoming an occurrence that people simple handle as a natural part of life, amongst other reasons ofc.

The Circle system works to reduce the number of abominations that cause the death of non-mage civilians while Rivain does, well, nothing, they just let things happen and deal with it afterwards.

 

What's interesting is comparing the Circle mages and their Templars with the Saarebas and their Arvaraads. Both the Chantry system and the Qunari policy apply the same fix to the same issue, but the Circle tries to veil it in civility while the Qunari are ruthlessly efficient. In both instances the mage is stripped entirely of liberty and allowed only to act at the handler's discretion. Both are "dehumanized" (an odd phrase to use when applied to non-humans, I concede) and treated as an object--a dangerous thing. I find it incredibly audacious for supporters of the Circle to criticize the Qunari policy as barbaric.

The Circle is closer to a quarantine, really, IMO. The mages are given basic rights and receive special care, with precautions taken to protect "uninfected" people from exposure to the "disease". They certainly have much more freedom and conforts than in Qunari lands.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

If DA mages existed in real life, i bet most people on here would be supportive of them being locked up to bring down the risks of abominations or blood magic. Is just a simple fact that mages are dangerous, especially if untrained in their powers.

[Ruka13]

If DA mages existed in real life, i bet most people on here would be supportive of them being locked up to bring down the risks of abominations or blood magic. Is just a simple fact that mages are dangerous, especially if untrained in their powers.

 

Forget locking them up. If DA mages were real they'd all be made tranquil as soon as their powers manifested...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If DA mages existed in real life, i bet most people on here would be supportive of them being locked up to bring down the risks of abominations or blood magic. Is just a simple fact that mages are dangerous, especially if untrained in their powers.

I can honestly say if mages were real, my opinion on the issue will not sway. 

[durasteel]

I'm not sure if Rivain is that good of an example, really, for them abominations are just a fact of life.

 

In Rivain abominations are treated nearly like natural disasters. They happen, they end, the survivors mourn their dead, the survivors go on with their lives.

This is something that the Circles exist (at least in theory) to stop abominations from becoming an occurrence that people simple handle as a natural part of life, amongst other reasons ofc.

The Circle system works to reduce the number of abominations that cause the death of non-mage civilians while Rivain does, well, nothing, they just let things happen and deal with it afterwards.

 

There are some folks in our real world who live with elephants. They rely on the elephants in their day-to-day lives, and their culture and society is in many ways built around living with these elephants.

 

Sometimes, the elephants go nuts.

 

It's a huge mess when it happens. Buildings are destroyed, people are trampled to death, chaos reigns until eventually the elephant runs off into the jungle or has to be put down. The mad elephant is a force of nature, with incredible destructive power. These people do not fear the elephants, though. Respect, definately, but not fear. If you try to take their elephants away, they'll fight you.

 

Rivain respects the elephant, while the Chantry has worked Andraste's bleating flock into a lather of holy terror and instilled a cultural elephantophobia.

[Master Warder Z_]

I can honestly say if mages were real, my opinion on the issue will not sway. 

 

Neither would mine.

 

 

That said if Mages were real then i know where i could turn to the next time i want to invade Kuwait or Israel.

[durasteel]

If DA mages existed in real life, i bet most people on here would be supportive of them being locked up to bring down the risks of abominations or blood magic. Is just a simple fact that mages are dangerous, especially if untrained in their powers.

 

I am sure some people would react today to that reality of magic the same way so many reacted to the fiction of magic in the middle ages: with ignorance, fear, and violence.

 

I would hope that there would be a critical mass of the rest of us that could use reason to curb the knuckle-dragging impulse in the general population, but I have my doubts.

[Master Warder Z_]

I am sure some people would react today to that reality of magic the same way so many reacted to the fiction of magic in the middle ages: with ignorance, fear, and violence.

 

I would hope that there would be a critical mass of the rest of us that could use reason to curb the knuckle-dragging impulse in the general population, but I have my doubts.

 

So the notion of imprisoning those with supernatural abilities is knuckle dragging to you? Its perfectly sensible to me.

 

Honestly; Beyond using them as a resource for war i don't see why abnormal beings such as them would be granted a place in society.

[durasteel]

Can anyone tell me what's so bad about blood magic?

 

I mean, I don't want to be mind controlled, but I rather have that then to be frozen solid then smashed into tiny bits by a flying rock. I know the Chantry preaches some crap about a greater risk of possession, but that seems to be false. Everything negative about blood magic in World of Thedas is presented as a rumor: 'Some people say it's really bad.'

 

My personal theory is that it's because the Magisters relied on blood magic to fuel the destruction of Arlathan and the trespass upon the Golden/Black City. Because those could not have been done without blood magic, it's become stigmatised and people freak out over it. What we've experienced of blood magic as the Warden or Hawke has been generally positive, hasn't it?

[durasteel]

So the notion of imprisoning those with supernatural abilities is knuckle dragging to you? Its perfectly sensible to me.

 

Honestly; Beyond using them as a resource for war i don't see why abnormal beings such as them would be granted a place in society.

 

How are those knuckles? You seem to be working up a good callous...

[Tric]

You don't have to read very far back in this thread to see examples of posts that advocate rounding all the mages up and killing them. Posts that advocate setting them--and anyone who shelters them--on fire. Concessions that it might be a good idea to keep a few alive to help fight the blights, but only those who submit willingly and completely--kill the rest.

 

If you accept the possibility of those policies and move on to discussing how and why they are wrong, then in that fictional reality those "super powers" are meaningless. 

 

I stand by my comparisons.

I also don't have to read far back to see the same kind of posts targeting templars.

 

Their powers are the reason why this situation even began, it's the reason behind the Circle system, it's the reason behind the fear, it's the reason for Tevinter's golden years. It will never not matter when regarding the Circle and society with mages. That mages are people is never put in question [regardless of] their powers.

 

There are some folks in our real world who live with elephants. They rely on the elephants in their day-to-day lives, and their culture and society is in many ways built around living with these elephants.

 

Sometimes, the elephants go nuts.

 

It's a huge mess when it happens. Buildings are destroyed, people are trampled to death, chaos reigns until eventually the elephant runs off into the jungle or has to be put down. The mad elephant is a force of nature, with incredible destructive power. These people do not fear the elephants, though. Respect, definately, but not fear. If you try to take their elephants away, they'll fight you.

 

Rivain respects the elephant, while the Chantry has worked Andraste's bleating flock into a lather of holy terror and instilled a cultural elephantophobia.

I admit I don't know the numbers or real level of destruction, but can an elephant destroy an entire tower full of other elephants and their trainers? A calf destroy a village or kill 72 people?

 

People not wanting to give up on something, be it a tradition or not does not mean they're right. Plenty of people refuse to give up on things that are harmful to them.

Rivain respects the elephants and accepts the deaths they cause, the Chantry tries to stop them from happening at all, at the cost of the elephants' freedoms and we are given no reason to believe they have failed since we don't know numbers one way or the other.

 

You advocate deaths of some for the freedom of others.

[Master Warder Z_]

How are those knuckles? You seem to be working up a good callous...

 

Quite well.

 

How is the childish naivety of that fantasy world you live going for you?

[The Baconer]

I can honestly say if mages were real, my opinion on the issue will not sway. 

 

What kind of mages? DA magic is rather primitive and limited (and then there's the whole possession thing) compared to, say, TES or D&D.

 

I don't think our opinions would matter in the latter case.

[Master Warder Z_]

What we've experienced of blood magic as the Warden or Hawke has been generally positive, hasn't it?

 

Bioware has explained the lack of recourse via usage of blood mage as game mechanics they couldn't implement successfully.

 

They said nothing about those risks not existing from its usage.

[Tric]

Can anyone tell me what's so bad about blood magic?

 

I mean, I don't want to be mind controlled, but I rather have that then to be frozen solid then smashed into tiny bits by a flying rock. I know the Chantry preaches some crap about a greater risk of possession, but that seems to be false. Everything negative about blood magic in World of Thedas is presented as a rumor: 'Some people say it's really bad.'

 

My personal theory is that it's because the Magisters relied on blood magic to fuel the destruction of Arlathan and the trespass upon the Golden/Black City. Because those could not have been done without blood magic, it's become stigmatised and people freak out over it. What we've experienced of blood magic as the Warden or Hawke has been generally positive, hasn't it?

Gimme the rock any day!

Give an immediate death than all the things that can be done to me and I can be forced to do while I'm under someone else's complete control and subsequent death when they are done with me, if they so wish it.

 

Also, canonically, blood magic makes you more susceptible to becoming an abomination by demonic possession. (How? IDK)

[Master Warder Z_]

Gimme the rock any day!

Give an immediate death than all the things that can be done to me and I can be forced to do while I'm under someone else's complete control and subsequent death when they are done with me, if they so wish it.

 

Also, canonically, blood magic makes you more susceptible to becoming an abomination by demonic possession. (How? IDK)

 

According to several in game sources, the Power supposedly draws from Demonic Spirits.

 

If that belief is true it makes sense why it would cause such an effect.

[durasteel]

I admit I don't know the numbers or real level of destruction, but can an elephant can destroy an entire tower full of other elephants and their trainers? A calf can destroy a village or kill 72 people?

 

People not wanting to give up on something, be it a tradition or not does not mean they're right. Plenty of people refuse to give up on things that are harmful to them.

Rivain respects the elephants and accepts the deaths they cause, the Chantry tries to stop them from happening at all, at the cost of the elephants' freedoms and we are given no reason to believe they have failed since we don't know numbers one way or the other.

 

You advocate deaths of some for the freedom of others.

 

We have no specific info on abominations in Rivain that I'm aware of. So far, I don't think we've heard of a single specific casualty at the hands of a rogue seer or abomination over there. I am admitting that casualties are possible and, eventually, probably likely. I am also certain that the seers perform useful roles in the community, promoting life and quality of life.

 

I advocate freedom with the acceptance of risk. Nothing is certain, and I am not suggesting that X number of free mages are worth Y number of dead villagers. That would be revolting.

[durasteel]

Quite well.

 

How is the childish naivety of that fantasy world you live going for you?

 

If that's what you call living without fear and ignorant superstition, well... it's going pretty well so far.

[durasteel]

Gimme the rock any day!

Give an immediate death than all the things that can be done to me and I can be forced to do while I'm under someone else's complete control and subsequent death when they are done with me, if they so wish it.

...

 

I'm married. Living under someone else's complete control is not entirely unfamiliar to me. I assure you it's better than being smashed with a rock.