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[SgtSteel91]

How often is someone put in life or death stress that they may become an abomination?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

hhh89 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

If Conner is indeed a Dreamer, it may explain why the import system tracks whether you killed him or not even though I see no reason why to do so since he is just the son of an Arl.

Connor was supposed to have a cameo in DA2 (there's the voiced dialogues on youtube, I think). The track in the import system might've been related to that.

Possibly, but why be one of the 15 it highlights specifically? Every other one is pretty significant, yet that one is just a cameo?

[The Elder King]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

How often is someone put in life or death stress that they may become an abomination?

In a world like Thedas? I'd say often.
Beside, I doubt there's a stress treshold for every mage. Every mage would likely react different to pressure/stress. And I don't think only 'life or death' stress might cause a mage to fall (again, depending on the mage). The loss of your loved ones is another example.

[The Elder King]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Possibly, but why be one of the 15 it highlights specifically? Every other one is pretty significant, yet that one is just a cameo?

Maybe because it' was related to a main quest. I don't know. 
As I said, there is no definitive evidence one way or another. I wouldn't mind having Connor as a Dreamer and seeing some consequence for this choice. It's just that judging from what we know about him he doesn't seem to me he's a Dreamer.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

hhh89 wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Possibly, but why be one of the 15 it highlights specifically? Every other one is pretty significant, yet that one is just a cameo?

Maybe because it' was related to a main quest. I don't know. 
As I said, there is no definitive evidence one way or another. I wouldn't mind having Connor as a Dreamer and seeing some consequence for this choice. It's just that judging from what we know about him he doesn't seem to me he's a Dreamer.

Yeah. Until we know more, we can't reasonably guess anything.

[Banxey]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

From what we know, Connor wasn't plagued by nightmares. He wasn't in the same situation of Orana and Fenyerel. We don't know enough about Meredith's sister.
Though dragonflight, I recall that in a precedent page you said that mages aren't aware in the Fade unless they use lyrium. I definitely recall that mages are aware when sleeping, which is the difference with non-mages. Wynne (if I recall) talked about it.

You're right. I was mistaken on that front. Here is a culmination of all Fade knowledge that we know of as of this moment pre-Masked Emperor and Inquisition.

Still, it doesn't talk about how often mage children are tempted by demons, or how often they're possessed. Only that they are the notable exception to everyone else in that they are aware. 

It still seems that unless a mage is a dreamer, they are only is so much danger when they enter the Fade using lyrium or blood magic. Connor may very well have been a dreamer. Heck, he went to Tevinter to study like Feynriel did if he lives past Origins. 

I think Connor was more like Cole. Where something sought him out because he was in fear. Though Cole didn't turn into an abomination, the spirit turned into Cole. 

Hmm....maybe. Cole is unique in that there are no other spirits/demons like him that we know of. Some of the closest similarities to Cole I can think of is Morrigan's description of Flemeth before Witch Hunt, and even then there are some very big differences. 

Connor isn't like Cole in that I don't think Cole ever had a body, wheras Connor most certainly does and is possessed (from the Fade) by a Desire Demon. 

Cole is unique. Cole simply is, and I don't know what that means about our current knowledge of Fade and demon lore. 

Cole tells Lambert at the end of Asunder that the boy Cole did exist. The spirit Cole came to either possess or comfort the real Cole, and somehow got trapped. It then only retained the dead boy's memories. What it is now is likely some form of Shade.

[The Elder King]

For now I'd say that 'Cole' is the same as Justice (only in a dead body). A spirit corrupted/changed by the mage's emotions.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

hhh89 wrote...

For now I'd say that 'Cole' is the same as Justice (only in a dead body). A spirit corrupted/changed by the mage's emotions.

Makes me wonder though: If a good spirit can become a demon from the person's negative emotions, like Justice turned to Vengeance from Anders, could the reverse be possible? A demon possessed someone so pure of heart that the demon is converted into a spirit of benevolent nature?

[Hellion Rex]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

For now I'd say that 'Cole' is the same as Justice (only in a dead body). A spirit corrupted/changed by the mage's emotions.

Makes me wonder though: If a good spirit can become a demon from the person's negative emotions, like Justice turned to Vengeance from Anders, could the reverse be possible? A demon possessed someone so pure of heart that the demon is converted into a spirit of benevolent nature?

Possible, but inevitably MUCH harder to accomplish. How many truly pure of heart people are there in Thedas?

[The Elder King]

I agree with eluvianix. It'd be very difficult.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

eluvianix wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

For now I'd say that 'Cole' is the same as Justice (only in a dead body). A spirit corrupted/changed by the mage's emotions.

Makes me wonder though: If a good spirit can become a demon from the person's negative emotions, like Justice turned to Vengeance from Anders, could the reverse be possible? A demon possessed someone so pure of heart that the demon is converted into a spirit of benevolent nature?

Possible, but inevitably MUCH harder to accomplish. How many truly pure of heart people are there in Thedas?

Well, I think anyone who is clearly more benevolent in nature would do, buy yeah, extremely difficult. I was only thinking it because it would be interesting to interact with such a being. It would be an interesting source of insight on demons.

[Lotion Soronarr]

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
But demons seem to be woefully ignorant of the mortal world, and that's why they want to experience it. 

If they truly cared about maintaining their power, we would see a lot less possessed trees and corpses. 

Good point ... A tree and a corpses is good enough but a mage child or teen is not be cause it's too weak or not ready? More then a tree?

I think you misunderstand.

A demon needs the veil to be weak (or mage to tap into the fade) to cross and posses. Only massive tragedies and bloodshed or mages can weaken the veil.

Places where the veil is weak is are places human tend avoid. In general, demons would have a hard time finding umans around - that is, If they could tell a mundane human from a tree. But they can't.
So you see possesed trees and corpses because there are no human around and lesser demons aren't a patient sort.

Higher level demons are more picky and patient. Unlike lesser demons, they usually don't attempt forcefull possesion, but take their time working on their target.

[Sir JK]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Makes me wonder though: If a good spirit can become a demon from the person's negative emotions, like Justice turned to Vengeance from Anders, could the reverse be possible? A demon possessed someone so pure of heart that the demon is converted into a spirit of benevolent nature?

I wouldn't deem it very likely.

Justice wasn't turned into a demon by Ander's anger. If you listen to what Anders says you hear that that he's still very much Justice. It's that he's "corrupted" by Anders perception. And Anders is a free bird, he resents being tied down by anything and he hates being singled out because he's a mage. So in Justice's eyes, the circles become an injustice that must be destroyed. He's pure idea, no reality.

This is why I doubt a demon could "be turned good". For one, they seldom care much about their host (unlike Justice, who'd never intentionally hurt Anders... that'd be unjust after all) and secondly they all represent pure vice. Put a rage demon in someone and they'll be consumed by rage... even the calmest person. There isn't a whole lot benefit that could spring from that. And even if you could diminish it enough to have a functioning person... what would be the gain?
Where's the benefit of desire? Pride (not confidence)? Hunger? Sloth? At least justice strives for justice.

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Making sure her unauthorized expriment didn't blow in her face? Oh wait it did and dozens if not a hundred or more civilians paid for that mistake with their lives,

A. How is what she did unauthorized? She is the Divine. She can do whatever the heck she wants, considering she is the boss of both the Seekers and Templars.

B. What civilians? Only mages and templars were affected by what happened in White Spire.

Point A: The Templars were formed from the Inquistion to police the circle of Magi and protect Mankind from Magic, What occured at that remote fortress at chantry direction? Wasn't authorized, wasn't known and thus blew up in the Chantry's face and every one there save the nutter tranquil died due to it. So sure you can agrue she can do what she wants, but not when it breaks the very covenant that the Order was created to safeguard.

She isn't worthy of sitting on that seat not only due to this betrayal, her betrayal of Lambert and the Templars but because inspite of it all? She still insists upon her will being blindly obeyed, When in truth when that occurs? You get issues that get more people killed.

So by the very convenant she broke she is the Leader of the Order via being highest representation of the Chantry, but given the accord has been anulled thankfully that no longer applies.

B. You misunderstood i was speaking of Adamant fortress.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Wothen wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Read Asunder. To my mind, it's far more balanced in its presentation of mages and templars, both the good and the bad, than, say, DA2.

What?
No!

Asunder story can be summed up in

Mages are opressed by templars
Mages goes on a quest while being opressed AND death threatened by templars
Mages try to break free and big bad templars kill some of them, capture the rest AGAINST THE CHANTRY WILL
Mages rebel , templars says F.U to the chantry and goes after the mages to kill them all

Yeah
very balanced representation
Theres like 1 reasonable templar in the whole story

However if you want to put the Chantry (Not the templars) in a good light thats the book

Lambert was a very reasonable man for his position.

He gave far more chances then a certain Knight Commander gave in DA 2.

._. Then again he's a seeker, not a templar.

.... What?
NO HE WAS NOT REASONABLE. He was doing a bunch of thing behind the divines back...Ageinst the Divines orders. 
Sorry but he was not reasonable.

Making sure her unauthorized expriment didn't blow in her face? Oh wait it did and dozens if not a hundred or more civilians paid for that mistake with their lives, Trying to recapture escaping mages her agents let loose in the first place? He had a duty to the realm and chantry and he took his duty to the realm more seriously at the moment considering the Divine had effectively killed his men, let loose his charges and beget the entire situation by luring him away in the first place.

So what exactly did he do behind the unworthy divine's back? 

And the Templars, Seekers and Chantry had a fairly cordial and relaxed relation considering Lambert had the authority to end it with a simple letter, It was obvious that the Templars served by choice, not by the Divine's will no matter how hard they tried to ingrain that bit into them.

1. Lanbert did not even know there was an experiment to prevent or the fact it fail. He was trying to cover it up so that the tranquility of mages can be used as a weapon ageinst mages.   it was just about control.
2.None of those mages would escaped his just did what he was ordered to do.
3.You need to look uo what Seeker. They take direct orders form the divine. And what he did caused more chaos for the realm.
4.She oked the deaths of insabodinate rebeal templar who went ageinst her orders and duty to also protect mages.

Do you not get that if he did not seek conflict with the mages there would be no conflict with the mages and he was order not to do so. And trying to cover up the finding of reversing tranquility is not going behind her back?

Sorry but he was not reasonable.

Again i am reminded of why i stopped debating things with you.

Namely the horrid spelling and obtuse reasoning but also you are a blatant defender of the robes.

._.

And Lambert i maintain was reasonable.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...



Again i am reminded of why i stopped debating things with you.

Namely the horrid spelling and obtuse reasoning but also you are a blatant defender of the robes.

._.

And Lambert i maintain was reasonable.

No. He did not. You don't get that none of the conflict that happened at the end of the book would not of happen if he just did what the divine told him to do and he was doing what a mage wanted him to due to ensure a rebellion.

Sorry, but he was not.

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



Again i am reminded of why i stopped debating things with you.

Namely the horrid spelling and obtuse reasoning but also you are a blatant defender of the robes.

._.

And Lambert i maintain was reasonable.

No. He did not. You don't get that none of the conflict that happened at the end of the book would not of happen if he just did what the divine told him to do and he was doing what a mage wanted him to due to ensure a rebellion.

Sorry, but he was not.

Except that while the Lord Seeker does in fact "answer" to the Divine that doesn't magically negate his role to serving boy, He is the commander of the Seekers of truth and acting head of the Templar Order in Orlais. His duties to the realm, and its peoples go beyond what some mage apologist might whine at him to do.

But just for the sake of debate.

He allowed the Divine her idiotic conclave, He allowed the Mages to be gathered to the Spire he had no issue following her whims no matter how moronic until she actively acted against the Templar order and his authority.

He moves to end the conclave when it stepped outside the bounds the Divine had given it.

They raise a stink over it, He reveals a murder has been commited, moves to arrest the chief suspect, Mages again object, He gives them a very reasonable ultimatium that many in his position likely wouldn't given how close to treason this entire situation is skidding to.

The knife eared commander in chief gives a little speal about pointless trivialities, Wynne raises a stink, Basically all in all the mages the gripe and whine as usual, Lambert moves to arrest them, a few people die. Yada Yada, Mass imprisionment and then mass escape due to the Divine.

So how exactly would things be anyway diffrent?

The Divine allowed the mage warleaders freedom, And a chance to mass and fortify their position?

How exactly do you think she planned to salvage this situation so war wouldn't break out? In truth? War is all that could happen by this point given that the Divine had basically forced Lambert's hand.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
Making sure her unauthorized expriment didn't blow in her face? Oh wait it did and dozens if not a hundred or more civilians paid for that mistake with their lives,

A. How is what she did unauthorized? She is the Divine. She can do whatever the heck she wants, considering she is the boss of both the Seekers and Templars.

B. What civilians? Only mages and templars were affected by what happened in White Spire.

Point A: The Templars were formed from the Inquistion to police the circle of Magi and protect Mankind from Magic, What occured at that remote fortress at chantry direction? Wasn't authorized, wasn't known and thus blew up in the Chantry's face and every one there save the nutter tranquil died due to it. So sure you can agrue she can do what she wants, but not when it breaks the very covenant that the Order was created to safeguard.

She isn't worthy of sitting on that seat not only due to this betrayal, her betrayal of Lambert and the Templars but because inspite of it all? She still insists upon her will being blindly obeyed, When in truth when that occurs? You get issues that get more people killed.

So by the very convenant she broke she is the Leader of the Order via being highest representation of the Chantry, but given the accord has been anulled thankfully that no longer applies.

B. You misunderstood i was speaking of Adamant fortress.

Countor to point : The aspect of what happen in the experiment was not know to the divine. She simply wanted to see if it was possible. You would have a case if there is a valid case of niglect on the part of the divine. here was not. Seeing if traquility could be reversed as a theory does not conclued to negative results. It not as obvious as say demonology and blood magic experiment for one to look at ahead of time as say it's dangerous.
This was an acceident out side the control of the divine done by an agent who took their own actions in the experiments.

The search for the cue was autherized but the experiment was done with out autherization. But it is in her right to allow a search for a cure for tranquility. It brake no convennant being that it was a way to stop the templars from using tranquility as a weapon which it not sappost to be used as.

Lambert only concern was about control over mages not the dangers of being able to reverse tranquility or the dangers of the experiment to learn  how to.

[Master Warder Z_]

 Wasn't directed to you, Wasn't interested in your position of it.  (Espeically when its the same blantant pro mage tripe that you always reply with)

Won't be replying to it.

Be grateful i bother contiuning with the quote Prymid as long as i have.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...



Again i am reminded of why i stopped debating things with you.

Namely the horrid spelling and obtuse reasoning but also you are a blatant defender of the robes.

._.

And Lambert i maintain was reasonable.

No. He did not. You don't get that none of the conflict that happened at the end of the book would not of happen if he just did what the divine told him to do and he was doing what a mage wanted him to due to ensure a rebellion.

Sorry, but he was not.

Except that while the Lord Seeker does in fact "answer" to the Divine that doesn't magically negate his role to serving boy, He is the commander of the Seekers of truth and acting head of the Templar Order in Orlais. His duties to the realm, and its peoples go beyond what some mage apologist might whine at him to do.

But just for the sake of debate.

He allowed the Divine her idiotic conclave, He allowed the Mages to be gathered to the Spire he had no issue following her whims no matter how moronic until she actively acted against the Templar order and his authority.

He moves to end the conclave when it stepped outside the bounds the Divine had given it.

They raise a stink over it, He reveals a murder has been commited, moves to arrest the chief suspect, Mages again object, He gives them a very reasonable ultimatium that many in his position likely wouldn't given how close to treason this entire situation is skidding to.

The knife eared commander in chief gives a little speal about pointless trivialities, Wynne raises a stink, Basically all in all the mages the gripe and whine as usual, Lambert moves to arrest them, a few people die. Yada Yada, Mass imprisionment and then mass escape due to the Divine.

So how exactly would things be anyway diffrent?

The Divine allowed the mage warleaders freedom, And a chance to mass and fortify their position?

How exactly do you think she planned to salvage this situation so war wouldn't break out? In truth? War is all that could happen by this point given that the Divine had basically forced Lambert's hand.

"Except that while the Lord Seeker does in fact "answer" to the Divine that doesn't magically negate his role to serving boy,"
Sorry but it does. He is free to act until told other wise. The seekers by their very oath only awnser to the divine. If told to stop he must do so. Point blank.

"He allowed the Divine her idiotic conclave, He allowed the Mages to be gathered to the Spire he had no issue following her whims no matter how moronic until she actively acted against the Templar order and his authority."

Wrong, he acted ageint the Divine first by going ageint her orders and attacked the mages. Sorry, but he clearly is in the wrong first.

"They raise a stink over it, He reveals a murder has been commited, moves to arrest the chief suspect, Mages again object, He gives them a very reasonable ultimatium that many in his position likely wouldn't given how close to treason this entire situation is skidding to."

A fair ultimatium? They want to look into the case themselves and he had no right to end the conclave. No at all being that the divine told him to step aside.

"The knife eared commander in chief gives a little speal about pointless trivialities, Wynne raises a stink, Basically all in all the mages the gripe and whine as usual, Lambert moves to arrest them, a few people die. Yada Yada, Mass imprisionment and then mass escape due to the Divine."

Complaining about doing something they were allowed to do and in their right is whining? This is like say people upset over police illegally entering and investgating their homes whining.  

"So how exactly would things be anyway diffrent?"
You mean outside of Lambert standing down, wait till the conclave was over. Did his investigation after the conclave and not breaking it up? It would of gone peacefully for one thing instead of a full on rebeallion.

"How exactly do you think she planned to salvage this situation so war wouldn't break out? In truth? War is all that could happen by this point given that the Divine had basically forced Lambert's hand."
The war would not of happen if Lambert just did what he was ordered to.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

 Wasn't directed to you, Wasn't interested in your position of it.  (Espeically when its the same blantant pro mage tripe that you always reply with)

Won't be replying to it.

Be grateful i bother contiuning with the quote Prymid as long as i have.

1. I'm pro-circle.
2.Everything I stated is a valid arguement.

3. You keep ignoring the fact that none of the conflict in the end of the book would not of happen if Lanbert fallowed the Divine's orders  and stood down.
4. You also are not taking the time to reconize what happen with looking for a cure for tranquility was not a case of naglecte. Nor did it seem dangerous from the start.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 17 février 2014 - 04:45 .

[Master Warder Z_]

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

 Wasn't directed to you, Wasn't interested in your position of it.  (Espeically when its the same blantant pro mage tripe that you always reply with)

Won't be replying to it.

Be grateful i bother contiuning with the quote Prymid as long as i have.

1. I'm pro-circle.
2.Everything I stated is a valid arguement.

3. You keep ignoring the fact that none of the conflict in the end of the book would not of happen if Lanbert fallowed the Divine's orders  and stood down.
4. You also are not taking the time to reconize what happen with looking for a cure for tranquility was not a case of naglecte. Nor did it seem dangerous from the start.

1. I noticed.
2.  Its perspective nothing more, there is nothing "valid" in debate until its conclusion.
3.  You keep ignoring that he has his own set of duties and respsonbilities beyond merely following the Divine around who kept proving increasingly unworthy of following. Furthermore conjecture, and pointless conjecture.
4.  It still doesn't matter that she went beyond the Authority of the Chantry and ignored that it fell into the baliwick of the Templars to you? Personally i think thats affront enough to have the Order leave, but i suppose having the Divine send in assasins to murder templars got the point accross as well.

[Arcanis]

IMHO there where three major people (+ their direct supporters ofc) to blame for the events:

1. Fiona (+Adrian), the Grand Enchanter: She was not interested in the normal people, she just
cared for the mages, she wanted total freedom. She refused any compromise. She even refuses
to actually accept ANY arguments against her position.

2. Lambert, Lord Seeker: Again, no interest in any compromise what-so-ever. Thanks to
his memorys of Tevinter he believes that every mage is a criminal once "unshackled" and
thus must be restrained for his/her own good. He is a Templer-hardliner who dismisses every
opposing argument as nativity - and this is never a good base.

3. Justinia, white Divine: She completly underestimates the ..feriocity of Lamberts & Fionas
believes. She wants a rather drastic revolution -instead of a gradual improvement- and thinks
tricking the Templars into them is going to work -as if they were some nobles of the orlesian
court. She is completly unable to calm the two hardliner and tries a modernization instead.

[leaguer of one]

Master Warder Z wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

 Wasn't directed to you, Wasn't interested in your position of it.  (Espeically when its the same blantant pro mage tripe that you always reply with)

Won't be replying to it.

Be grateful i bother contiuning with the quote Prymid as long as i have.

1. I'm pro-circle.
2.Everything I stated is a valid arguement.

3. You keep ignoring the fact that none of the conflict in the end of the book would not of happen if Lanbert fallowed the Divine's orders  and stood down.
4. You also are not taking the time to reconize what happen with looking for a cure for tranquility was not a case of naglecte. Nor did it seem dangerous from the start.

1. I noticed.
2.  Its perspective nothing more, there is nothing "valid" in debate until its conclusion.
3.  You keep ignoring that he has his own set of duties and respsonbilities beyond merely following the Divine around who kept proving increasingly unworthy of following. Furthermore conjecture, and pointless conjecture.
4.  It still doesn't matter that she went beyond the Authority of the Chantry and ignored that it fell into the baliwick of the Templars to you? Personally i think thats affront enough to have the Order leave, but i suppose having the Divine send in assasins to murder templars got the point accross as well.

1. What not valid about pointing out that the search for the cure for tranquiliy  does not show any dangers of doing so? 
What's not valid aboiut pointing out the result of the finding the cure of tranquility was not an act of  neglecte but an accident?
2. You keep ignoring the fact that he was ordered to leave the mages alone and he ignored the one thing meant to regulate him..The divine herself. The reason why seekers only awnser to the divine is to be able to regulate them...To stop them if they go too far. Like how the spectrues in ME only awnser to the counsole.
3. She did not go beyond her authority. It in her right to allow the search for the cure of tranquility, to tell seekers to stand down and allow a group with a vaste history of sergation the chance to do things in their right. You don't even comprehend how lax the regulation on templars have gotten. The fact the templars are use a tool meant to help mages like the right of tranquility as a weapon proves that point.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 17 février 2014 - 05:13 .

[leaguer of one]

Chaoticos wrote...

IMHO there where three major people (+ their direct supporters ofc) to blame for the events:

1. Fiona (+Adrian), the Grand Enchanter: She was not interested in the normal people, she just
cared for the mages, she wanted total freedom. She refused any compromise. She even refuses
to actually accept ANY arguments against her position.

2. Lambert, Lord Seeker: Again, no interest in any compromise what-so-ever. Thanks to
his memorys of Tevinter he believes that every mage is a criminal once "unshackled" and
thus must be restrained for his/her own good. He is a Templer-hardliner who dismisses every
opposing argument as nativity - and this is never a good base.

3. Justinia, white Divine: She completly underestimates the ..feriocity of Lamberts & Fionas
believes. She wants a rather drastic revolution -instead of a gradual improvement- and thinks
tricking the Templars into them is going to work -as if they were some nobles of the orlesian
court. She is completly unable to calm the two hardliner and tries a modernization instead.

I would not put Fiona as a cause of the uprising. She may of wanted freedom for her people but she clearly was not forcing a war to happen because of it.
The issue was Arian who when killed the tranquil and framed her friend knowing full well how the templars are going to react. She egged the templars on know they would attack the mages and did so to push the mages to start a rebellion.
I would not put Justina at fault ether ether. She was clearly trying to do gradual improvements. All she did was allow them to do a conclave which they always were allowed to do before  the events of Kirkwall. Even the search for the cure for tranquility is not an issue being that it was just to counter the wide spread miss use of the right of tranquility by templars.

The fault lies with Adian and Lanbert.