8640 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

Funny, Qunari has mages alive and they progress with technology.  Mutually repress and control their mages, and not my path, but they've proven you can leave the mages alive and still progress with technology.

 

I think it's cute that you dismiss two key things about the darkspawn:

 

1)  They aren't just going to go away because mages are dead.  Neither is all magic, for that matter.  You can kill off every mage, but magic might return.  Without an understanding of the genetics of mages (something only Tevinter had once upon a time,) you're just shooting blind.  There's chaotic evil and then there is being chaotic stupid.

 

2) The Veil is weakened by more than just magic.  As has been pointed out to you (and that you've shown willing ignorance about,) massive amounts of death and slaughter can weak the Veil a lot as well.  Your "solution" would do as much damage to the Veil and to the safety of everyone else as the mages do.  Since you claim to have the interest of the most common folk at heart, that would backfire.

 

You still haven't touched my post, by the way.  Do you advocate killing off Thedas?  By starting with the mages, that's exactly what you're wanting.  If that's the case, go find a mod or play a game that'll let you destroy the world.

 

Z and I almost never agree, but even his solutions have more long term merit.  We don't see eye to eye on the solutions, but he genuinely does have the interest of Thedas at heart.  He seeks to protect the common person of Thedas.  You don't, TKS.  You're in it for yourself.

 

All you're doing is saying, "Well, we don't need those pesky mortals around.  C'mon Demons!  It's nice and warm here.  Oh and you too Darkspawn!  Please, take our lands and blight our lives."  

 

Because qunari despise mages and not count on them they don't kill them because they have don't waste anything they use them in war as they will use children.Another factor that qunari have totally different thinking comparing to "normal" peoples. Lets see "why use explosives when you can use magic?" when dwarves don't have mages they develop technologically same with qunari who won't be addicted to mages...

 

1.Who uses magic? mages who causes disasters by using magic? mages kill mages problem solved then kill new-born mages problem solved sure there always will be few mages but not even far as dangerous in current numbers... and when perhaps it is "evil" by d&d not definitely not chaotic stupid "Chaotic Stupid character is also likely to Kick the Dog. But he's just as likely to Pet the Dog, Shave The Dog, Paint The Dog Purple, or even Ignore The Dog Entirely To Run Off Chasing Butterflies. In short, the 'true' Chaotic Stupid character is the one who thinks that being Chaotic Neutral means being batshit insane."

 

2.What if that was in case veil would be torn thousands of years before dao as massacres are part of every day in thead either wars between countries , shady games between ruling class (like grand game in orlais) , racial conflicts and many other things like blights... sure non-mages can weaken the veil  and eventually torn it mages can do that very quickly can be done even by 1 mage like baroness... so simple killing minority like won't affect veil enough and even drop because there will be no mages around (so magic won't have hand in torning veil) as well disasters caused by mages will vanish (so victims of that will vanish as well)...

 

No i advocate to kill mages who bring little more than destruction and trouble and are danger for entire world so don't compare mage to averge john... because averge jon can't cause end of the world...

[dzs Angel]

Then you know nothing on the real world.

 

Take a look at what kind of people ANY power structure or organization wants, how it trains them and you will see.

Even companies - who don't deal in warfare - value obedience.

Your believe in obedience always reminds of one phrase: Who is the fool? The fool or the fool that follows him?

[Master Warder Z_]

Don´t take this the wrong, I don´t want to offend you. But you do look like someone who is impressed by his own might. And it looks like you are having a hard time considering the worth of differing oppinions.

 

Ah!

 

So i act upon my perspective rather then those presented to me? Hardly uncommon, even when applied to ruling a Nation or Economics.

 

And differing opinions matter to me upon differing levels, have adopted and change opinions upon occasion but given how often opinions delve into personal bias i am not of a mind to do so often. We all craft the path we walk after all, I like to think my own was mainly craft by me.

[Lotion Soronarr]

1)  They aren't just going to go away because mages are dead.  Neither is all magic, for that matter.  You can kill off every mage, but magic might return.  Without an understanding of the genetics of mages (something only Tevinter had once upon a time, and that was only with family trees.  Not an exact science.) you're just shooting blind.  There's chaotic evil and then there is being chaotic stupid.

 

2) The Veil is weakened by more than just magic.  As has been pointed out to you (and that you've shown willing ignorance about,) massive amounts of death and slaughter can weak the Veil a lot as well.  Your "solution" would do as much damage to the Veil and to the safety of everyone else as the mages do.  Since you claim to have the interest of the most common folk at heart, that would backfire.

 

 

1) Nobody said they would or that that was the goal. In short, elimination of magic is not the goal, so shifting the goalpost there is meaningless - bringing demons/abomination/mage activity to a minimum is. And even tough I do not agree with the "kill all mages" solution, I cannot deny that it would have the desired effect.

 

2) Keyword. MASSIVE. Death tolls in the hunderds of thousands. Millions. Mages are a tiny minority and spread out. Their deaths would barely register.

Also, places with a torn veil are known and generally avoided.So even if you gathered all mages in one place and killed them, and that tore the veil, you'd just quarantene the entire zone.

It still doesn't change the fact that single mage can tear it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Your believe in obedience always reminds of one phrase: Who is the fool? The fool or the fool that follows him?

 

Gandalf just was a plain fool

[dzs Angel]

Ah!

 

So i act upon my perspective rather then those presented to me? Hardly uncommon, even when applied to ruling a Nation or Economics.

 

And differing opinions matter to me upon differing levels, have adopted and change opinions upon occasion but given how often opinions delve into personal bias i am not of a mind to do so often. We all craft the path we walk after all, I like to think my own was mainly craft by me.

 

Point taken. Everybody should be able to craft his own path for himself.

Gandalf just was a plain fool

Lol. I rather liked him.

[EmissaryofLies]

Can't believe killing all the mages is even being considered. It's not even good as a last resort, your efamed Tranquil Solution would be. Even then, it makes the Chantry weaker ;not even the Qunari are so blind as to discount the massive advantage that magic provides.

Killing all the mages or killing all the templars are not ****** solutions. They would cause more problems than they would ever dream to solve.

[Grieving Natashina]

Except demons can't even see normal people - to them there is no difference between a mundane and a rock. Mages shine like beacons.

 

Also, they can't approach mundanes as easily as they can approach mages.

 

Finally, possession of a mundane results in a creature far weaker than an abomination.

 

 

So no. Not even remotely the same.
 

Fair, but what about the bodies laying around?  A bunch of mage corpses are even worse than a living mage.  Hello, Arcane Horror.  The world needs more of those running around, I'm sure.

 

 

1) Nobody said they would or that that was the goal. In short, elimination of magic is not the goal, so shifting the goalpost there is meaningless - bringing demons/abomination/mage activity to a minimum is. And even tough I do not agree with the "kill all mages" solution, I cannot deny that it would have the desired effect.

 

2) Keyword. MASSIVE. Death tolls in the hunderds of thousands. Millions. Mages are a tiny minority and spread out. Their deaths would barely register.

Also, places with a torn veil are known and generally avoided.So even if you gathered all mages in one place and killed them, and that tore the veil, you'd just quarantene the entire zone.

It still doesn't change the fact that single mage can tear it.

 

 

1) TKS has said that.  He has said in previous threads that all mages dead will mean all Darkspawn will be dead too.  He also operates under the assumption that magic is just a gene that can be wiped out.   In a world with freaking magic, why would killing all the current living mages stop magic from happening?  Does not compute.

 

2) And I was talking massive amounts of death.  Every mage in the world dead = a ton of death.  They may be a minority, but do you have a source for numbers?  I'm still betting a population loss the size of a small country would still count as a massive slaughter.   Kirkwall's Veil isn't just weak to due to magic, in case you forgot.  Thousands of people were sacrificed and died there, which contributed (among other things) to a very weak Veil.

 

A single mage can do a little tear in the Veil, but not like the slaughter of every man, woman and child that might contain magic.  See, two mages can have a non-magical child.  Two non-mages can have a magic child or might just have a non-magic child.  A mage and a mudane can have either or both (see Bethany and Carver.)   Most of the time the power doesn't manifest right away, so it's hard to tell.   The killing would not stop, because there is always a chance another child is going to be born with magic.  I'm sure that kind of long-term massacre is going to have serious effects on the Veil.  

 

Don't kid yourself: A "kill them all" approach would simply doom the world.  It doesn't matter if it's mage or templar, and considering such an idea as a good one is short sighted, stupid, wasteful, and a great way to herald the end of all of Thedas.

[KaiserShep]

The kill-everything plan is a great idea when you look at it strictly from a god-mode game perspective. Press this button and watch everyone suffer! Of course, if there's any semblance of society in the fictional world of Thedas, killing all mages is about as simple as writing a single sentence summary of a David Lynch movie.

[Grieving Natashina]

The kill-everything plan is a great idea when you look at it strictly from a god-mode game perspective. Press this button and watch everyone suffer! Of course, if there's any semblance of society in the fictional world of Thedas, killing all mages is about as simple as writing a single sentence summary of a David Lynch movie.

I think I'm the only person I know that watched Lost Highway and understood it the first time.  Granted, I may have been doing my best Timothy Leary impression at that point.  This was many years ago.  Anyhow, that's a very nice comparison to the complexity of the situation.

 

If anyone doesn't know who David Lynch is, go check out Lost Highway.  If you're into early 90s TV shows, get the first season of Twin Peaks.  

[Master Warder Z_]

God believes it best that Thedas be restored to the circle system to both prevent unneeded slaughter and to maintain the balance of power required of Thedas.

 

Mages are dangerous, easy to corrupt, easy to turn to evil and easy to possess. But they are a valuable resource, in wartime mages become living artillery and while healers are a rarity they are not to be discounted either. Magic is a useful boon, but it must be maintained a secured resource.

 

Ultimately this war will need be resolved in a way that prevents future rebellion and curtails dangerous notions; Such as Freedom, Rights and equality.

 

Such things can not be applicable to mages because ultimately they are not the same as ordinary people, the same rules, restrictions and rights cannot apply to them.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Sort of agree that they're not (entirely) stupid, but Following the voice of a 'god' to sacrifice thousands of slaves and 1/3 of their lyrium reserves in something they had no clue about doesn't strike me as brilliant.

 

 

I agree. Reminds me of the ancient Netherese Empire and Karsus' Folly of Forgotten Realms lore.

 

The man tore the mantle of godhood from the goddess of magic and as a result all magic failed. The Empire crumbled because all of their cities were located on magically floating mountaintops. Ah, hubris...

 

In his defense though it could have worked. Besides who would turn a chance at becoming god? 

[TheKomandorShepard]

1) TKS has said that.  He has said in previous threads that all mages dead will mean all Darkspawn will be dead too.  He also operates under the assumption that magic is just a gene that can be wiped out.   In a world with freaking magic, why would killing all the current living mages stop magic from happening?  Does not compute.

 

2) And I was talking massive amounts of death.  Every mage in the world dead = a ton of death.  They may be a minority, but do you have a source for numbers?  I'm still betting a population loss the size of a small country would still count as a massive slaughter.   Kirkwall's Veil isn't just weak to due to magic, in case you forgot.  Thousands of people were sacrificed and died there, which contributed (among other things) to a very weak Veil.

 

A single mage can do a little tear in the Veil, but not like the slaughter of every man, woman and child that might contain magic.  See, two mages can have a non-magical child.  Two non-mages can have a magic child or might just have a non-magic child.  A mage and a mudane can have either or both (see Bethany and Carver.)   Most of the time the power doesn't manifest right away, so it's hard to tell.   The killing would not stop, because there is always a chance another child is going to be born with magic.  I'm sure that kind of long-term massacre is going to have serious effects on the Veil.  

 

Don't kid yourself: A "kill them all" approach would simply doom the world.  It doesn't matter if it's mage or templar, and considering such an idea as a good one is short sighted, stupid, wasteful, and a great way to herald the end of all of Thedas.

 

What xD i never said that darkspawn will be dead if i kill mages   same for removing genes that that are responsible for magic if genas are cause at all.What i said is killing all mages by using templars/anti-mages ant that will have mostly benefits for thedas or at least non-mages... 

 

2.Blood magic and magic weakens veil very quickly and no as i said through thedas history milions if not billions peoples died and when mages are something few thousands peoples not couting tevinter and qunari...

 

And no it won't doom world as i said read thedas history....

[Master Warder Z_]

 Besides who would turn a chance at becoming god? 

 

One whom has already achieved said mantle.

 

[KaiserShep]

Ultimately this war will need be resolved in a way that prevents future rebellion and curtails dangerous notions; Such as Freedom, Rights and equality.

 

I don't believe that such a thing is possible. No matter what people do, notions such as freedom, rights and equality will always pervade the minds of mages just as it would anyone else. Order can be restored, even for many years or even generations, but then some other crisis will present itself.

[Grieving Natashina]

@ Z.  Really.  God said this. 

 

The Maker, the guy that hasn't been seen for about 1000 years, believes this?  The Maker, who the last one that supposedly talked to him was Andraste?  Er, sure, whatever you say.

 

Or does his followers, that deliberately remove parts of the Chant they disagree with out of spite?  It sounds more like a human than divine stance to me.   Sorry, but I've seen the corruption of the Chantry and I know the Maker is absent, so I'm not letting powerful men tell me what the Maker wants.

 

Z, this is where we go back to disagreeing.  I could say everything you just said about mages about Templars in DA2.  Dangerous?  Check.  More prone to possession than a normal person?  Check.  Easy to corrupt?  Yeah, check.  Easy to turn to evil?  Check.   The fantasy version of PCP addicts, lyrium being as addictive to me as blood magic?  Just a bonus.

 

By the way, to get rid of those ideals, you'd have to turn them all Tranquil.  That's just mortal nature to want those things and it doesn't matter if it's in a fantasy world or in ours.  A thousand years of the Circles couldn't stamp that fire, and the Circles are unlikely to return.

 

@TKS: Sure, you go on believing that.  By the way, you should read up on what happens to the overwhelming majority of CE type characters in fantasy fiction.  I'll be using the bonfire they'd toss your IC body in to toast marshmellows.

[The Elder King]

I agree. Reminds me of the ancient Netherese Empire and Karsus' Folly of Forgotten Realms lore.
 
The man tore the mantle of godhood from the goddess of magic and as a result all magic failed. The Empire crumbled because all of their cities were located on magically floating mountaintops. Ah, hubris...
 
In his defense though it could have worked. Besides who would turn a chance at becoming god?

Me, if I have everything as the magisters had.

One whom has already achieved said mantle.
 

Come on mate. Your 'godhood' was given to you .

[dzs Angel]

God believes it best that Thedas be restored to the circle system to both prevent unneeded slaughter and to maintain the balance of power required of Thedas.

 

Mages are dangerous, easy to corrupt, easy to turn to evil and easy to possess. But they are a valuable resource, in wartime mages become living artillery and while healers are a rarity they are not to be discounted either. Magic is a useful boon, but it must be maintained a secured resource.

 

Ultimately this war will need be resolved in a way that prevents future rebellion and curtails dangerous notions; Such as Freedom, Rights and equality.

 

Such things can not be applicable to mages because ultimately they are not the same as ordinary people, the same rules, restrictions and rights cannot apply to them.

That is one of two reason, why I always favored Magneto.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Z, this is where we go back to disagreeing.  I could say everything you just said about mages about Templars in DA2.  Dangerous?  Check.  More prone to possession than a normal person?  Check.  Easy to corrupt?  Yeah, check.  Easy to turn to evil?  Check.   The fantasy version of PCP addicts: Just a bonus.

 

 

 

[Lulupab]

Me, if I have everything as the magisters had. Come on mate. Your 'godhood' was given to you .

 

Which is why the imperial chantry seems more logical than southern chantry when it says the old gods are responsible for darkspawn, not the mages. Ironically archdemons are old gods. Its much more believable.

[dzs Angel]

@ Z.  Really.  God said this. 

 

The Maker, the guy that hasn't been seen for about 1000 years, believes this?  The Maker, who the last one that supposedly talked to him was Andraste?  Er, sure, whatever you say.

 

Or does his followers, that deliberately remove parts of the Chant they agree with out of spite?  It sounds more like a human than divine stance to me.   Sorry, but I've seen the corruption of the Chantry and I know the Maker is absent, so I'm not letting powerful men tell me what the Maker wants.

 

Z, this is where we go back to disagreeing.  I could say everything you just said about mages about Templars in DA2.  Dangerous?  Check.  More prone to possession than a normal person?  Check.  Easy to corrupt?  Yeah, check.  Easy to turn to evil?  Check.   The fantasy version of PCP addicts, lyrium being as addictive to be as blood magic?  Just a bonus.

 

By the way, to get rid of those ideals, you'd have to turn them all Tranquil.  That's just mortal nature to want those things and it doesn't matter if it's in a fantasy world or in ours.  A thousand years of the Circles couldn't stamp that fire, and the Circles are unlikely to return.

 

 

Couldn´t agree more.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think the Imperial Chantry says the Old Gods were responsible for creating the darkspawn. That was just Anders' theory in Legacy. When Sebastian asks Fenris what the Imperial Chantry says about the coming of the darkspawn, he says "Slaves were not regaled with stories of the Chant of Light."

[Grieving Natashina]

 

Sorry, it's in DA2.  They have been proven to be able to be possessed, unlike a normal non-magic using person.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Sorry, it's in DA2.  They have been proven to be able to be possessed, unlike a normal non-magic using person.

 

Wha where?

 

 

@TKS: Sure, you go on believing that.  By the way, you should read up on what happens to the overwhelming majority of CE type characters in fantasy fiction.  I'll be using the bonfire they'd toss your IC body in to toast marshmellows.

There is nothing to belive those are facts was thedas full of death and wars yes is world destroyed by demons because of that why minority death will cause that? And every villain tend end as that but now such trend that villain end burned and hero wins slowly pass away as fiction becomes more darker ideal heroes are replaced by anti-heroes and villains now tend win if they are smart...

[Divine Justinia V]

@ Z.  Really.  God said this. 

 

The Maker, the guy that hasn't been seen for about 1000 years, believes this?  The Maker, who the last one that supposedly talked to him was Andraste?  Er, sure, whatever you say.

 

Or does his followers, that deliberately remove parts of the Chant they disagree with out of spite?  It sounds more like a human than divine stance to me.   Sorry, but I've seen the corruption of the Chantry and I know the Maker is absent, so I'm not letting powerful men tell me what the Maker wants.

 

Z, this is where we go back to disagreeing.  I could say everything you just said about mages about Templars in DA2.  Dangerous?  Check.  More prone to possession than a normal person?  Check.  Easy to corrupt?  Yeah, check.  Easy to turn to evil?  Check.   The fantasy version of PCP addicts, lyrium being as addictive to me as blood magic?  Just a bonus.

 

By the way, to get rid of those ideals, you'd have to turn them all Tranquil.  That's just mortal nature to want those things and it doesn't matter if it's in a fantasy world or in ours.  A thousand years of the Circles couldn't stamp that fire, and the Circles are unlikely to return.

 

@TKS: Sure, you go on believing that.  By the way, you should read up on what happens to the overwhelming majority of CE type characters in fantasy fiction.  I'll be using the bonfire they'd toss your IC body in to toast marshmellows.

 

basically everything that had to be said was said in this post, from beginning to end. Good on you, Natashina