Wha where?
What do you think Tarohne was assisting with? She even said that anyone would do for the demons including a perfectly non-magical Hawke. I'm betting when the Veil rips like paper in the next game, the demons wouldn't need that much help. They'll be there, on the material plane, 100% and need no mortal vessel to be there. I can see them possessing folks, especially Templars, to spread chaos even further for fun.
And then there is Wilmod, or did you forget all about him?
Obvious spy? That was only Anderses viewpoint, not fact.
And the Wardens take on everyone that's useful - which includes templars.
An ex-templar warden is no more strange than a mage warden.
I don't think the Imperial Chantry says the Old Gods were responsible for creating the darkspawn. That was just Anders' theory in Legacy. When Sebastian asks Fenris what the Imperial Chantry says about the coming of the darkspawn, he says "Slaves were not regaled with stories of the Chant of Light."
"The Imperial Chantry accuses the Old Gods instead of ancient magisters of creating the darkspawn." Wiki has this sentence and I'm quite sure I read it somewhere else to but can't seem to remember now.
Anyone help please? 
I don't believe that such a thing is possible. No matter what people do, notions such as freedom, rights and equality will always pervade the minds of mages just as it would anyone else. Order can be restored, even for many years or even generations, but then some other crisis will present itself.
Hence why as i proposed earlier in the thread, the circle is made even more gilded.
You make them comfortable enough and the majority will resign themselves to the position.
Kill those who oppose it and it will maintain it self, Perhaps not for eternity, but long enough.
What do you think Tarohne was assisting with? She even said that anyone would do for the demons including a perfectly non-magical Hawke. I'm betting when the Veil rips like paper in the next game, the demons wouldn't need that much help. They'll be there, on the material plane, 100% and need no mortal vessel to be there. I can see them possessing folks, especially Templars, to spread chaos even further for fun.
And then there is Wilmod, or did you forget all about him?
Facepalm tarohne was enforcing demonic possession by rituals i don't know if you saw that it wasn't natural... and yes if demon will cross veil he will seek host so he can possess everyone... but that was done by magic so argument is out of reality and only supports my view to kill mages...
Yes i renember and another word it was caused by blood magic ritual caused by tarhone who was blood mage...
@Lob
You know, the transition from Awakening Anders to DA2 Anders wasn't too jarring. After I read that that Jennifer was inspired by bipolar disorder, his personality change (combined with Justice) made perfect sense. I'll never ever ever agree with what Anders did, but I think his character made sense.
That is, until I read the short story. It made so little sense that I decided, "Whatever," and dismissed it's existence. Since the details of the story didn't come up in DA2, it's probably not going to come up at all with Anders. Which is good.
@TKS. You used "mages" and "reality" in the same sentence. You crack me up. Dude, you look for any reasons to kill all mages. So don't even give me that. You're worse than Meredith. BioWare won't let you just kill them all. Which is why even Z is looking for alternatives to "kill 'em all"; he knows that BioWare won't let that happen.
It's a reality that the Veil is going to tear open and rips are going to be everywhere. You know, the game we're talking about? The demons will cross over (we've seen it in the trailer) and very likely be seeking hosts, I can promise you that. If all the mages are dead, then a Templar will work just fine. If not a Templar, than what's to stop them from possessing normal folks?
I ask that again, because I did some more digging. Mundanes are only "like rocks" to demons because demons are in the Fade and most normal folks have zero shine in the Fade. Do you think they'll be able to ignore them once they are on the material plane? Or will they act like every demon I've seen in the game so far: Try to first use, then kill anything that isn't them/doesn't agree with them. Oh and I'm not talking just abominations either. I'm talking using mind control, cocerion and other non-possession ways of dealing with them.
I'm guessing it's the latter.
Edit: Wow, 228 pages later and I still agree with what I said my first post in here. I still think we need more balance in our narrative representation between the two factions. Also, I'm ready for the story to move on from this. I have a feeling that whatever is coming is going to make much of this debate seem quaint and ignorant in hindsight.
Finally, why isn't this stickied yet?
@ Z. Really. God said this.
The Maker, the guy that hasn't been seen for about 1000 years, believes this? The Maker, who the last one that supposedly talked to him was Andraste? Er, sure, whatever you say.
Or does his followers, that deliberately remove parts of the Chant they disagree with out of spite? It sounds more like a human than divine stance to me. Sorry, but I've seen the corruption of the Chantry and I know the Maker is absent, so I'm not letting powerful men tell me what the Maker wants.
Z, this is where we go back to disagreeing. I could say everything you just said about mages about Templars in DA2. Dangerous? Check. More prone to possession than a normal person? Check. Easy to corrupt? Yeah, check. Easy to turn to evil? Check. The fantasy version of PCP addicts, lyrium being as addictive to me as blood magic? Just a bonus.
By the way, to get rid of those ideals, you'd have to turn them all Tranquil. That's just mortal nature to want those things and it doesn't matter if it's in a fantasy world or in ours. A thousand years of the Circles couldn't stamp that fire, and the Circles are unlikely to return.
I am the Maker! It was i who installed the laminate floor tiling in the golden city! It was i who conned those cheap Filipino contractors into gold plating the exterior of my palace at the dawn of time!
You believe you cannot change human nature? Human nature has shifted, changed and melded to become many things in many places, You believe you cannot contain such rebellion? This where i disagree, human nature can be turned upon its head, perhaps not entirely but enough. You obliterate the notion early, replace it with comfort, kinship and a pro dogmatic approach from religion and things begin to shift. You claim it is mortal nature to want those things?
It is also mortal nature to want resources, safety and family, when you control all of these, Mortal nature becomes you want it to become.
Also Templars exist solely because mages exist, furthermore possession doesn't come naturally to them, they enter the fade unaware, they are no more to demons then a rock or tree, unless directed by a mage. Corruption is also not intrinsic with being a Templar, as it with being a Mage. How much tempation to abuse authority given by Divine right is present when Templars are being assigned to to capture aspostates? How much temptation is presented every night they close their eyes?
Come on mate. Your 'godhood' was given to you
.
Oi! Slander and Lies! Cease Defaming me at once!
._. And being born with the eyes of Kami was not "given" to me.
It may have been a convenient product of breeding but there was no rough installing of said eyes into my holy skull!
@TKS. You used "mages" and "reality" in the same sentence. You crack me up. Dude, you look for any reasons to kill all mages. So don't even give me that. You're worse than Meredith.
It's a reality that the Veil is going to tear open and rips are going to be everywhere. You know, the game we're talking about? The demons will cross over (we've seen it in the trailer) and very likely be seeking hosts, I can promise you that. If all the mages are dead, then a Templar will work just fine. If not a Templar, than what's to stop them from possessing normal folks?
I ask that again, because I did some more digging. Mundanes are only "like rocks" to demons because demons are in the Fade and most normal folks have zero shine in the Fade. Do you think they'll be able to ignore them once they are on the material plane? Or will they act like every demon I've seen in the game so far: Kill anything that isn't them.
I'm guessing it's the latter.
I said that your argument is out of the reality...
Well i don't have to seek as i said tarohne was one of many reasons that support my idea...
And veil teras will be caused by either mage or demon (as only they can tear veil) so well ultimately it will be mage fault like it or not...
And so what normal person is possessed by demon is weaker than mage possessed by demon which mean abomnation... and point of the game is fix veil so everything will come back to normal demons stop possess everyone and only mages will be danger...
Demons will start kill everyone because if possess someone but as i said point of the game is save the world and fix veil and mages will stay danger as they always were...
To be fair, Tahrone was forcing demons into Templars/normal folks, and admits that not everyone was suitable/survived the process. I'm not entirely sure, even were they interested, that a demon could possess just any old non-mage.
In Tevinter since the restoration of the mageocracy, the templars are under the authority of the magisters and thereby the Circle of Magi. Lambert used to be an Imperial templar and claimed that, in fact, the Templar Order has no power there. Yet we don't hear about any abomination outrages in Tevinter. The majority of Imperial templars lack the ability to counter magic. They are primarily soldiers
That system has been able to control the mages as good as southern system, if not better. Seeing it was the southern Mages that revolted not the ones in Tevinter it seems Southern templars need a good spanking and a change is in order.
What do you think Tarohne was assisting with? She even said that anyone would do for the demons including a perfectly non-magical Hawke. I'm betting when the Veil rips like paper in the next game, the demons wouldn't need that much help. They'll be there, on the material plane, 100% and need no mortal vessel to be there. I can see them possessing folks, especially Templars, to spread chaos even further for fun.
And then there is Wilmod, or did you forget all about him?
But said demons had to be lead into those bodies, they didn't naturally draw to them like a mage because as repeated before.
A Mage is a beacon, a self aware being within the fade, A Templar may as well be a rock to them.
Note this was pre veil tear but i'd assume the concept would still apply, they don't have conscious presence within the fade, therefore it would be about like a demon possessing a boulder for fun.
In Tevinter since the restoration of the mageocracy, the templars are under the authority of the magisters and thereby the Circle of Magi. Lambert used to be an Imperial templar and claimed that, in fact, the Templar Order has no power there. Yet we don't hear about any abomination outrages in Tevinter. The majority of Imperial templars lack the ability to counter magic. They are primarily soldiers
That system has been able to control the mages as good as southern system, if not better. Seeing it was the southern Mages that revolted not the ones in Tevinter it seems Southern templars need a good spanking and a change is on order.
There are still circles and that tevinter have mages as rules doesn't mean they are treating mages nice and dandy as human nobles other humans.Tevinter rulers are self-centred and ruthless so they can have even less nicer methods to deal with mages than templars... And yes fenris siad that abomnations aren't uncommon in tevinter...
In Tevinter since the restoration of the mageocracy, the templars are under the authority of the magisters and thereby the Circle of Magi. Lambert used to be an Imperial templar and claimed that, in fact, the Templar Order has no power there. Yet we don't hear about any abomination outrages in Tevinter. The majority of Imperial templars lack the ability to counter magic. They are primarily soldiers
That system has been able to control the mages as good as southern system, if not better. Seeing it was the southern Mages that revolted not the ones in Tevinter it seems Southern templars need a good spanking and a change is in order.
Speculation, Speculation and Speculation.
Note three things.
One the Templars within the Imperium still exist.
Two As do both the rite of tranquility and the rite of annulment, those problems didn't magically just poof away with a mage dictatorship in place.
Three, its speculation that the Templars of the Imperium do not imbibe Lyrium.
To be fair, Tahrone was forcing demons into Templars/normal folks, and admits that not everyone was suitable/survived the process. I'm not entirely sure, even were they interested, that a demon could possess just any old non-mage.
There are still circles and that tevinter have mages as rules doesn't mean they aren't treat mages nice and dandy as human nobles other humans.Tevinter rulers are self-centred and ruthless so they can have even less nicer methods to deal with mages than templars... And yes fenris siad that abomnations aren't uncommon in tevinter...
First part is assumption.
And about what Fenris said that doesn't mean there are more abominations than rest of the world, it just means there are. That system works perfectly when it comes to control the mages. As far as i know people are not locked up in the circles in tevinter. Its more like a school.
Spirits (or demons, depending on your cultural perspective) just need to cross over to where the veil is thin, and can possess almost anything - trees, animals, corpses, even regular people (like Sophia Dryden). Mages aren't the only ones who can be possessed.
You men sophia who was possessed thanks to avernus who torn veil by summoning demons that he couldn't control? Yes they can but such places caused by non-mages are rare mostly mages destroy veil... another reason to chop them...
First part is assumption.
And about what Fenris said that doesn't mean there are more abominations than rest of the world, it just means there are. That system works perfectly when it comes to control the mages. As far as i know people are not locked up in the circles in tevinter. Its more like a school.
No they are circles in tevinter as well templars and no it isn't assumption as ruthless peoples won't care if you are mage ,elf or human only about own comfort thats why we have mages slaves in tev...
Do you mean there is less abomnations in country that run by blood mages what increases chances of possession and mages are summoning demons constantly? right...
But said demons had to be lead into those bodies, they didn't naturally draw to them like a mage because as repeated before.
A Mage is a beacon, a self aware being within the fade, A Templar may as well be a rock to them.
Note this was pre veil tear but i'd assume the concept would still apply, they don't have conscious presence within the fade, therefore it would be about like a demon possessing a boulder for fun.
They do possess trees and the like. Why not an average person?
@Lob Was she possessed before death or after? A demon is happy with a corpse, and it doesn't have to be a mage's corpse.
Oh and before anyone else says that "millions" need to die in order to make for a very weak Veil: Millions didn't die in the Denerium alienage purge, yet that was enough to weaken the Veil there. Yes, the mages from Tevinter made it worse, but the majority of the damage was done before the mages showed up. The sheer amount of blood and death weakened the Veil a lot.
Again though, that part of the debate isn't at you (or Z.) You know that "kill 'em all" is a wasteful idea. I find it morally repugnant as well, but more than anything else, I find it illogical.
Speculation, Speculation and Speculation.
Note three things.
One the Templars within the Imperium still exist.
Two As do both the rite of tranquility and the rite of annulment, those problems didn't magically just poof away with a mage dictatorship in place.
Three, its speculation that the Templars of the Imperium do not imbibe Lyrium.
Nope, Nope and Nope.
There is no proof that there are more abominations in Tevinter therefore its quite safe to assume the numbers of abominations appearing is even.
"There are indeed Imperial templars. Their primary role is to enforce magical law, and since they are part of the Chantry-- which is controlled by the Circle-- they are thus controlled by the mages. The majority of Imperial templars, however, lack the ability to counter magic. They are primarily soldiers."
David Gaider from here:
http://social.biowar...ex/4546148&lf=8
Also:
"Ah, but there is a Circle of Magi in Tevinter. And that means that mages are no more free to not be a part of it than they are elsewhere in Thedas. Yes, you have significantly more power and freedom, but you exchange being controlled by the Chantry for being controlled by... other mages."
Mages are not locked up in Tevinter.
Spirits (or demons, depending on your cultural perspective) just need to cross over to where the veil is thin, and can possess almost anything - trees, animals, corpses, even regular people (like Sophia Dryden). Mages aren't the only ones who can be possessed.
Sophia wasn't a person when it happened, she was a corpse. So functionally no different than a rock.
Living normal people don't take well to possession, as Tahrone makes clear.
First part is assumption.
And about what Fenris said that doesn't mean there are more abominations than rest of the world, it just means there are. That system works perfectly when it comes to control the mages. As far as i know people are not locked up in the circles in tevinter. Its more like a school.
I have a suspicion that mages in Tevinter help their templars to get rid of the abominations. Considering highly competitive mageocracy i'd say its very likely.
And Templars in Tevinter aren't really Templars we used to. They are military fist of its religious institute, kind of like Pope's army.
Modifié par renfrees, 08 mars 2014 - 11:43 .
They do possess trees and the like. Why not an average person?
@Lob Was she possessed before death or after? A demon is happy with a corpse, and it doesn't have to be a mage's corpse.
Oh and before anyone else says that "millions" need to die in order to make for a very weak Veil: Millions didn't die in the Denerium alienage purge, yet that was enough to weaken the Veil there.
Eee considering that humans like kill elves because 1 elf killed someone in docks (and that was before dao in ferelden alienage) many died ther very brutal death and that didn't torn veil only weakened so 1 demon could cross veil lucky 1 of exaples that demon got into world caused by non-mages only 1 in series...
Yet you keep using handfuls of mages, as well as codex and in-game resources, to justify why you want to kill all mages. When, as several have pointed out, there isn't even that many blood mages in DA2 until things go to hell in Act 3.
So, I can't use an in-game reason to state that the Veil is torn by violence and bloodshed, but you can use mooks from the games to justify killing an entire group of people? Sorry bud, it doesn't work that way.
@Lotion: When it came to possession, I'll admit to invoking Cunningham's Law on that one.
They can't conquer an island because the writers want it that way even though it doesn't make sense. I could come up with all sorts of ways that ruthless and powerful blood mages can take the island and eventually all of Thedas and I don't even write this stuff.
An empire doesn't become an empire because they're stupid.
What allows an empire to exist has changed, but Tevinter hasn't. We also don't know their military tactics, which could very well be obsolete in combating the Qunari.
You'll have to take into account, that no nation in Thedas wants to kill all mages, just control them and weed out the black sheeps. Not even Qunari, which would be relatively easy for them with all that certainty of their Qun. Mages are valuable, if dangerous resource. Nobody gets rid of the blackpowder because it explodes, they just take safety measures to use it.
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