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[Dean_the_Young]

I like the way you think

 

With all due respect, you know as well as I do: The first rule in crushing a rebellion(or possible rebellion) is to kill the leaders of the rebellion and most(or every) of the soldiers able to fight you, thus ensuring no further rebillions will be possible. And this would have caused a considereable amount of blodshed in the ranks of the mages. 

 

I probably know better than you to understand why this is false: the first rule in preventing a rebellion is to allow the leaders a way out short of death. Which Lambert and the Templars had already done once before. Cutting off retreat and killing the leadership is fine in the field if the goal is total destruction, but only if you want a considerable amount of bloodshed on your side as well.

 

 

Which is all getting away from the point: the leaders of the mage rebellion are equally responsible for putting the mage collective in the situation in the first place. They were not obligated to do so before they arranged the means and conditions for victory.

[TK514]

Out of curiosity, who are these people you refer to?
 
I mean, I know I don't hold the viewpoint you just described. I admit I don't pay attention to Kommodor, but I don't think Warden Z does either. I'm kind of curious, because appealing to the Chant and religion isn't a common pro-Templar viewpoint.
 
I'm sure you're not strawmanning others or anything, so who are these people? Got any names you can share?

I'm curious as well. Most, if not all the points I see focus on the inherent dangers of magic, and have little if anything to do with the Chantry's dogma.

[Veruin]

I'm curious as well. Most, if not all the points I see focus on the inherent dangers of magic, and have little if anything to do with the Chantry's dogma.

Doesn't matter.

 

All they see is oppression.  They don't care how you reason it.

[Dean_the_Young]

It certainly seems to be in times of Annulment; I believe Gaider clarified that those who surrender in DA2 in the templar ending will be made Tranquil later. And this is just a large-scale version of that, it seems.

 

 

We are not dealing with a situation of an Annulment, Xilizhra.

 

 

 

 

I personally believe that the possible window for said groundwork was closing too rapidly... additionally, Adrian's action that was the prime factor for sparking things was wholly unilateral and didn't have anything to do with the rest of the mage leadership. If Fiona's plan alone had been enacted, and if Lambert could have been proven to act without sufficient provocation, then I think it would have been enough pressure on Justinia to possibly have Lambert removed from the picture.

 

 

 

Not exactly setting a credible claim to leadership competence for the independence movement, Xil.

[Xilizhra]

We are not dealing with a situation of an Annulment, Xilizhra.

What reason do you have to think that Lambert would have let them live?

 

Not exactly setting a credible claim to leadership competence for the independence movement, Xil.

In Adrian's case? Possibly not. But bad political skills aren't an infrequent companion to good military skills, so hopefully Adrian will find her niche there.

[dzs Angel]

 

 

 

Which is all getting away from the point: the leaders of the mage rebellion are equally responsible for putting the mage collective in the situation in the first place. They were not obligated to do so before they arranged the means and conditions for victory.

They simply did not have a leadership at this time. Anders, Fiona, Adrian, Wynne, each of them was trying to convince the rest of the mages to follow their cause.

[Dean_the_Young]

What reason do you have to think that Lambert would have let them live?

 

 

The preferable effects of arresting them.

 

What reason do you have to think that Lambert was going to execute or tranquilize them all for an illegal act when he didn't do so before?

 

 

 

In Adrian's case? Possibly not. But bad political skills aren't an infrequent companion to good military skills, so hopefully Adrian will find her niche there.

 

 

 

How about Fiona's case, in pushing independence votes? How about the entire mage independence movement pushing it and instigating tensions with the Templars to spur crackdowns?

[durasteel]

I'm curious as well. Most, if not all the points I see focus on the inherent dangers of magic, and have little if anything to do with the Chantry's dogma.

 

Simply put, only the Chantry and its adherents (and the Qunari) maintain such a level of paranoia regarding mages. Magic is everywhere, in every culture other than the dwarves, but only Andrasteans and Qunari view mages with such fear that they feel the need to lock them away.

[Dean_the_Young]

They simply did not have a leadership at this time. Anders, Fiona, Adrian, Wynne, each of them was trying to convince the rest of the mages to follow their cause.

 

And which among them actually had a plan and means to achieve their goal?

 

Wynn can at least claim the status quo of a Circle system, which was already in place, and the reformist efforts within the Chantry and pre-established political actors.

[Xilizhra]

What reason do you have to think that Lambert was going to execute or tranquilize them all for an illegal act when he didn't do so before?

I want to answer this question, but am not completely sure if my memories are correct, so I'll need to reread the book first. But I will after I finish DA2 again, which will be soon.

 

How about Fiona's case, in pushing independence votes? How about the entire mage independence movement pushing it and instigating tensions with the Templars to spur crackdowns?

All necessary. Even if you want to institute reforms within the Circle, the mages have to push hard to get someone to listen; it has to be made clear that there are major systemic issues with the Chantry's policies in the Circle, and that they won't go away without being addressed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Simply put, only the Chantry and its adherents (and the Qunari) maintain such a level of paranoia regarding mages. Magic is everywhere, in every culture other than the dwarves, but only Andrasteans and Qunari view mages with such fear that they feel the need to lock them away.

 

...so all the civilizations with magic but not being ruled by mages feel the need to keep them away. Gotcha.

 

When 'accept the costs of mages' is only upheld by mageocracies or tribal societies that can't afford to, 'paranoia' suddenly sounds synonymous with 'civilized.'

[durasteel]

Out of curiosity, who are these people you refer to?

 

I mean, I know I don't hold the viewpoint you just described. I admit I don't pay attention to Kommodor, but I don't think Warden Z does either. I'm kind of curious, because appealing to the Chant and religion isn't a common pro-Templar viewpoint.

 

I'm sure you're not strawmanning others or anything, so who are these people? Got any names you can share?

 

If it makes you feel better, you can excise the bit about the Chant/Qun and it works just as well. I suppose that the fact that you and Z talk about "the dangers of magic" with the same hyperbolic tone used by the Chantry is not actually justification for placing you directly under its philosophical umbrella.

[dzs Angel]

And which among them actually had a plan and means to achieve their goal?

 

Wynn can at least claim the status quo of a Circle system, which was already in place, and the reformist efforts within the Chantry and pre-established political actors.

Correct, the leadership of the mages consists of soldiers and administrators, they don´t have command experience. Command is about people, they are used to bureaucracy and darkspawn. The templars did an excellent job of preventing possible leaders into the mages ranks. So the mages had no other choice but to accept these leaders and hope for the best.

[Dean_the_Young]

All necessary. Even if you want to institute reforms within the Circle, the mages have to push hard to get someone to listen; it has to be made clear that there are major systemic issues with the Chantry's policies in the Circle, and that they won't go away without being addressed.

 

They were being addressed- and then they were sabotaged by those pushing for independence, pushing the mages into a fight-or-die perspective without any plan for the 'fight' part.

 

Unless you're intending to surrender in the first place, abandoning a system is not the means to reform it. It just creates a power vacuume for others less aligned with your interests to fill.

[dzs Angel]

...so all the civilizations with magic but not being ruled by mages feel the need to keep them away. Gotcha.

 

When 'accept the costs of mages' is only upheld by mageocracies or tribal societies that can't afford to, 'paranoia' suddenly sounds synonymous with 'civilized.'

I bet Rivain and the Elves would love to disagree, and Anderfels and Ferelden as well.

[Xilizhra]

They were being addressed- and then they were sabotaged by those pushing for independence, pushing the mages into a fight-or-die perspective without any plan for the 'fight' part.

 

Unless you're intending to surrender in the first place, abandoning a system is not the means to reform it. It just creates a power vacuume for others less aligned with your interests to fill.

Justinia only started considering reforms after the mage independence movement had gained significant ground, and they couldn't concede said ground or else the templars would sweep back in to undo any gains. It's not at all clear that Justinia's policies will be continued by a successor, so the maximum amount possible had to be done here and now while she was in power and alive (and attempts have been made on her life before).

[Dean_the_Young]

If it makes you feel better, you can excise the bit about the Chant/Qun and it works just as well. I suppose that the fact that you and Z talk about "the dangers of magic" with the same hyperbolic tone used by the Chantry is not actually justification for placing you directly under its philosophical umbrella.

 

Where have I been hyperbolic? What dangers have I pointed to that are not in the setting?

 

Considering that we have no major factions that deal with magic that don't claim that magic is dangerous, including the Circle mages, I'm not sure why you're lumping that into a Chantry (and Qunari) only perspective. Even the mages like Anders accept that magic is dangerous: they just don't think the security fears of others justifies restricting them, as oppossed to thinking themselves not dangerous.

 

Since it's clear you're not really reflecting my position, I'll ask again: who are these people who hold the views you were speaking of?

[Dean_the_Young]

I bet Rivain and the Elves would love to disagree, and Anderfels and Ferelden as well.

 

Rivain is split into three cultural influences: the Qun (which is anti-magic), the non-Qun urban areas (where Andrastianism is prevalent), and the rural areas (where the Seers are dominant as a localized mage-leader class).

 

The Dalish are being ruled by mages, even if you consider a nomadic clan-based culture a civilization.

 

Both the Anderfels and Ferelden are maintaining the Circle systems.

[durasteel]

...so all the civilizations with magic but not being ruled by mages feel the need to keep them away. Gotcha.

 

When 'accept the costs of mages' is only upheld by mageocracies or tribal societies that can't afford to, 'paranoia' suddenly sounds synonymous with 'civilized.'

 

Rivain isn't ruled by mages, it is governed by female elders, mage and mundane both. Among these "old ladies" the Seers have seniority, but that doesn't come remotely close to being "ruled by mages."

 

You cannot simply dismiss tribal societies. The Chasind, for example, can easily afford to just kill all their mages--they have no qualms about other similarly ruthless practices. The fact that they don't, and keep shamen around, suggests that they don't really see them as that much of a threat. If mages running free without Templar domination were as big of a danger as you seem to believe, there wouldn't be any Dalish left in the world, they would have long since perished at the twisted hands of abominated keepers.

 

The fact that Tevinter is run by mages doesn't detract from the fact that mages seem to be perfectly capable of keeping whatever abomination risk there is--great or small--in check without a bunch of lyrium addled Templar zealots breathing down their necks.

[EmperorSahlertz]

I bet Rivain and the Elves would love to disagree, and Anderfels and Ferelden as well.

Uhm... The Anderfels are Andrastians. They are even more fervent than the Orlesians...

[EmissaryofLies]

Rivain isn't ruled by mages, it is governed by female elders, mage and mundane both. Among these "old ladies" the Seers have seniority, but that doesn't come remotely close to being "ruled by mages."

 

 

You realize you're the only person in the world who understand this?

[EmperorSahlertz]

All Rivaini seers are mages. Rivaini seers rule their communities. Do the math.

[Hellion Rex]

So, I've been gone for 2 days. Anything been resolved yet in the debate?

[dzs Angel]

Rivain is split into three cultural influences: the Qun (which is anti-magic), the non-Qun urban areas (where Andrastianism is prevalent), and the rural areas (where the Seers are dominant as a localized mage-leader class).

 

The Dalish are being ruled by mages, even if you consider a nomadic clan-based culture a civilization.

 

Both the Anderfels and Ferelden are maintaining the Circle systems.

 

In Biowares canon Alistair is king and Arl Eamons son is alive. The Wardens are about to take over Anderfels, and they don´t have any prejudices against mages.

Rivain isn't ruled by mages, it is governed by female elders, mage and mundane both. Among these "old ladies" the Seers have seniority, but that doesn't come remotely close to being "ruled by mages."

 

You cannot simply dismiss tribal societies. The Chasind, for example, can easily afford to just kill all their mages--they have no qualms about other similarly ruthless practices. The fact that they don't, and keep shamen around, suggests that they don't really see them as that much of a threat. If mages running free without Templar domination were as big of a danger as you seem to believe, there wouldn't be any Dalish left in the world, they would have long since perished at the twisted hands of abominated keepers.

 

The fact that Tevinter is run by mages doesn't detract from the fact that mages seem to be perfectly capable of keeping whatever abomination risk there is--great or small--in check without a bunch of lyrium addled Templar zealots breathing down their necks.

 

Excactly

Uhm... The Anderfels are Andrastians. They are even more fervent than the Orlesians...

Like I said, the Grey Wardens are about to take over. And mages are allowed to be First Warden.

[EmissaryofLies]

So, I've been gone for 2 days. Anything been resolved yet in the debate?

 

Not a damned thing.

 

Strawman's coming strong. Voting for him in the next election.