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[Dean_the_Young]

Rivain isn't ruled by mages, it is governed by female elders, mage and mundane both. Among these "old ladies" the Seers have seniority, but that doesn't come remotely close to being "ruled by mages."

 

The Seer description does say that the Seers are female mages (willing abominations as well), and that they are the community leaders. That would make a mageocracy.

 

 

 

 

 

You cannot simply dismiss tribal societies. The Chasind, for example, can easily afford to just kill all their mages--they have no qualms about other similarly ruthless practices. The fact that they don't, and keep shamen around, suggests that they don't really see them as that much of a threat.

 

 

Tribal societies lack organization structure to asses and remove entrenched influence groups like Shamans. These influence groups already exist and can exert influence (the Shamans retaliating against Chasind who try to kill all the mages), and so are accepted regardless of the relative costs they bring to societies.

 

 

 

 

If mages running free without Templar domination were as big of a danger as you seem to believe, there wouldn't be any Dalish left in the world, they would have long since perished at the twisted hands of abominated keepers.

 

When have I claimed mages were an existential threat?

 

 

The fact that Tevinter is run by mages doesn't detract from the fact that mages seem to be perfectly capable of keeping whatever abomination risk there is--great or small--in check without a bunch of lyrium addled Templar zealots breathing down their necks.

 

 

 

Define 'in check.'

[Dean_the_Young]

In Biowares canon Alistair is king and Arl Eamons son is alive. The Wardens are about to take over Anderfels, and they don´t have any prejudices against mages.

 

...and? Alistair isn't abandoning the Circle system, Connor doesn't change that, and nothing in the Anderfels suggests the Wardens are leaving the mages to their own devices or abandoning the Circle system.

 

 

 

 

Excactly

Like I said, the Grey Wardens are about to take over. And mages are allowed to be First Warden.

 

 

Andrastianism has tolerated the Grey Wardens being trusted with mages for centuries. What's the change in policy?

[durasteel]

Where have I been hyperbolic? What dangers have I pointed to that are not in the setting?

 

Considering that we have no major factions that deal with magic that don't claim that magic is dangerous, including the Circle mages, I'm not sure why you're lumping that into a Chantry (and Qunari) only perspective. Even the mages like Anders accept that magic is dangerous: they just don't think the security fears of others justifies restricting them, as oppossed to thinking themselves not dangerous.

 

Since it's clear you're not really reflecting my position, I'll ask again: who are these people who hold the views you were speaking of?

 

You have consistently overstated the dangers of magic. Of course everyone agrees that magic is dangerous, but there is no support in the setting (aside from Chantry dogma) to support a conclusion that it is so dangerous that mages must be segregated from the mundane population, locked in the Templar towers of internment to safeguard Johnny Mundane from becoming a "meat puppet."

 

Everything in Thedas is dangerous. Dragons are apex predators, but there are Nevarran families who specialise in hunting them, and drinking their blood can apparently make you powerful enough to forge a kingdom as well as turbocharging your offspring for a dozen generations or more. With training, you can learn how to negate magic effects on you by snorting a few lines of lyrium. Apparently if you mix darkspawn blood and Red Bull and drink it, it will probably kill you... but if it doesn't you can rock some freaky blood powers. An autistic dwarf with a few runes in his pocket can create a "boom" that kills everything around him, but his really powerful mojo is "not enchantment."

 

So, yeah... of course magic is dangerous. It's all dangerous. That doesn't mean everyone in Thedas needs to live in fear, or that every mage needs to live a lifetime in time-out.

[dzs Angel]

...and? Alistair isn't abandoning the Circle system, Connor doesn't change that, and nothing in the Anderfels suggests the Wardens are leaving the mages to their own devices or abandoning the Circle system.

 

 

 

Andrastianism has tolerated the Grey Wardens being trusted with mages for centuries. What's the change in policy?

1.

If you where king, your uncle primeminister and your nephew a mage facing enslavement, oppression, humiliation, tranquility and death, would you allow the circle system to continue? Especially if Orlais imposes the circle system on everyone, which happens to be your mortal enemy.

 

2.

Grey Wardens can´t oppress mages and at the same time be ruled by mages.

[durasteel]

All Rivaini seers are mages. Rivaini seers rule their communities. Do the math.

 

All Rivaini seers are mages.

 

All statements to the effect that they "rule" their communities are made-up BS.

 

Read the book.

[LobselVith8]

All Rivaini seers are mages. Rivaini seers rule their communities. Do the math.

It's a matriarchal society, not a magocracy. There are seers, but they aren't the only ones who govern the traditional areas, and they also have royalty among the areas that are prevalent with Chantry faithful.

[Hellion Rex]

All Rivaini seers are mages.

 

All statements to the effect that they "rule" their communities are made-up BS.

 

Read the book.

They do rule though. The seers are their leadership. However, that doesn't mean that they don't rule their communities benevolently.

[durasteel]

...

When have I claimed mages were an existential threat?

...

 

Are you fornicating kidding me?

[durasteel]

They do rule though. The seers are their leadership. However, that doesn't mean that they don't rule their communities benevolently.

 

They don't rule. The elder women are their leadership, and among the elder women the Seers have seniority. Give me one example of an organization where those who have seniority among the leadership actually rule. Leadership and rule are very different things.

[LobselVith8]

They don't rule. The elder women are their leadership, and among the elder women the Seers have seniority. Give me one example of an organization where those who have seniority among the leadership actually rule. Leadership and rule are very different things.

That's true; it's a matriarchal kingdom. The importance of women has lead to them being leaders.

Another interesting tidbit is that the hahren overruled a Keeper, in the backstory of the Dalish Warden.

The non-Andrastian societies where mages aren't forced into servitude are nothing like the brutal regime of the Imperium, where mages and non-mages are enslaved.

[EmissaryofLies]

But but but but but TEVINTER!!! May Thedas never forgive or forget!

[LobselVith8]

But but but but but TEVINTER!!! May Thedas never forgive or forget!

I wonder, does Tevinter mean we can condemn humanity as a whole? In the same way Tevinter is used to vilify mages and magic across the broad scope of Thedas...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wonder, does Tevinter mean we can condemn humanity as a whole? In the same way Tevinter is used to vilify mages and magic across the broad scope of Thedas...

No, simply because a powerful elf can become a Magister as much as a powerful human can.

[dzs Angel]

But but but but but TEVINTER!!! May Thedas never forgive or forget!

Just wait until the Qunari are done with them

[EmissaryofLies]

@Lob

 

Apparently not. Because the mages are better equipped to wreak havoc it diminishes the capacity of which the mundanes are to be held responsible. Your Qunari, your Chantry and your Loghains have presided over, dallied in, or are guilty of multiple horrendous crimes some of which include genocide, they can conquer, invade and subjugate whomever they please. But because mundanes have to try harder than the mages they are completely deserving of their freedom while the mages should be imprisoned for the entirety of their lives.

[dzs Angel]

@Lob

 

Apparently not. Because the mages are better equipped to wreak havoc it diminishes the capacity of which the mundanes are to be held responsible. Your Qunari, your Chantry and your Loghains have presided over, dallied in, or are guilty of multiple horrendous crimes some of which include genocide, they can conquer, invade and subjugate whomever they please. But because mundanes have to try harder than the mages they are completely deserving of their freedom while the mages should be imprisoned for the entirety of their lives.

So they are getting away scottfree because they are either stupid or uncapable,but cruel nonetheless, unlike most of the mages? 

[EmissaryofLies]

So they are getting away scottfree because they are either stupid or uncapable,but cruel nonetheless, unlike most of the mages? 

 

Simply acknowledging a fierce double standard in Thedas. Mages are extremely dangerous and they need to master their powers and be disiciplined. But that does not seem to be enough in most cases. While dangerous people like Meredith can hold the VIscount seat hostage and bully an entire city into capitulating to her standards.

[Daerog]

True, but we have yet to see mundanes do something that really messes with reality. Portals to other dimensions, weakening of the Veil (possibly creation of Veil originally?), the Blight (not entirely their fault, but still capable of greater disasters than the average plague), and such. Ya, mages and mundanes can all do the evil politics and wars and mass slaughtering, but when it comes to altering reality in some way, that is where the paranoia sets in. Even though very, very few mages are probably capable of doing such things.

 

Should mages be punishment for having greater potential? No, but the Circle system doesn't have to be a form of punishment either. Necessary I would say for the larger nations to manage all their mages and getting them properly trained, but it could be more like a mandatory boarding school rather than a concentration camp. Fereldan seemed more like the former while Kirkwall was the latter, and I don't know what the others are like since I haven't read WoT or Asunder.

[dzs Angel]

Simply acknowledging a fierce double standard in Thedas. Mages are extremely dangerous and they need to master their powers and be disiciplined. But that does not seem to be enough in most cases. While dangerous people like Meredith can hold the VIscount seat hostage and bully an entire city into capitulating to her standards.

Ain´t that the truth

[EmissaryofLies]

True, but we have yet to see mundanes do something that really messes with reality. Portals to other dimensions, weakening of the Veil (possibly creation of Veil originally?), the Blight (not entirely their fault, but still capable of greater disasters than the average plague), and such. Ya, mages and mundanes can all do the evil politics and wars and mass slaughtering, but when it comes to altering reality in some way, that is where the paranoia sets in. Even though very, very few mages are probably capable of doing such things.

 

Should mages be punishment for having greater potential? No, but the Circle system doesn't have to be a form of punishment either. Necessary I would say for the larger nations to manage all their mages and getting them properly trained, but it could be more like a mandatory boarding school rather than a concentration camp. Fereldan seemed more like the former while Kirkwall was the latter, and I don't know what the others are like since I haven't read WoT or Asunder.

 

Agreed. Mages should most certainly prove themselves nearly infallible when it comes to all things magical before being permanently integrated into society. But some here seem to think that things should stay relatively the same i.e. mages locked up for good.

 

It doesn't matter what other concessions are allotted to the mages, if they always have to return to their prisons regardless of constitution and behavior, they will rise again. Not even a thousand years have beaten the will for freedom out of the mages. Thus, the conflict will be reignited and repeated ad infinitum.

[Lulupab]

Agreed. Mages should most certainly prove themselves nearly infallible when it comes to all things magical before being permanently integrated into society. But some here seem to think that things should stay relatively the same i.e. mages locked up for good.

 

It doesn't matter what other concessions are allotted to the mages, if they always have to return to their prisons regardless of constitution and behavior, they will rise again. Not even a thousand years have beaten the will for freedom out of the mages. Thus, the conflict will be reignited and repeated ad infinitum.

 

Not to mention the number of mages has increased drastically since 800 years ago. The middle ground as some people think is not the return of old circles because that is mage defeat not middle ground. Something like autonomous circle with Templars being its guards with no especial rights at all least of all divine rights is a middle ground. Just like in every successful country no police force should be beyond law and should be punished more severely than a normal person in case of corruption. Hanging for abuse of any sort of power would do.

 

And the death toll? Well eventually the number of mages born free with each generation will outnumber the toll.

[wcholcombe]

Not to mention the number of mages has increased drastically since 800 years ago. The middle ground as some people think is not the return of old circles because that is mage defeat not middle ground. Something like autonomous circle with Templars being its guards with no especial rights at all least of all divine rights is a middle ground. Just like in every successful country no police force should be beyond law and should be punished more severely than a normal person in case of corruption. Hanging for abuse of any sort of power would do.

 

And the death toll? Well eventually the number of mages born free with each generation will outnumber the toll.

Not certain on the increased number of mages.  While there is some degree of genetics involved in being a mage or not, mundane families with no history of magic in them are still able to spontaneously produce mages-tevinter puts a lot of emphasis on blood lines and mages in the family tree.

 

Also, there has been no mention of the towers becoming over croweded, in fact it sounds like in Asunder that the Spire may hold fewer mages than it once did.  We don't know entirely how being a mage works in Thedas as having mage parents isn't a guaruntee of mage offspring.

 

Point is, I don't see mages overpopulating thedas anytime soon.  And no Xil and Q that is not an invitation to point out the population control practiced by the templars

[renfrees]

I wonder, does Tevinter mean we can condemn humanity as a whole? In the same way Tevinter is used to vilify mages and magic across the broad scope of Thedas...

Tevinter sunk Arlathan, Tevinter was responsible for Darkspawn (according to original Tevinter magister), Tevinter spread blood magic teachings, Tevinter made Kirkwall and other places the devil's holes they are (thinned the Veil with mass sacrifices to the point of no return). So yes, you can say that a string of various Tevinter's actions kinda condemned humanity to it's impending doom.

[AresKeith]

No wonder why I stay neutral

[Grieving Natashina]

No wonder why I stay neutral

You're not alone on that.  There is a lot of us in the middle shaking our heads and chuckling at this whole mess.