8640 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

AS I don't consider the Harrowing or Tranquility abuses, we have nothing to discuss here. No mages were being outfight abused in DAO outside of that I guess.  No ROA was ever declared or implemented. No Templars were raping or illegally tranuiling people or physically abusing or murdering mages.  So I will stick with my own head canon about circle relationships thank you and I reject yours .

 

I don't think it's fair to paint all the templars with the same brush, but I think the Harrowing and the Rite of Tranquility explain the strong opposition some hold for the Chantry controlled Circles, and the status quo that was taking place for nearly a thousand years. Enforcing an institution that some oppose morally and ethnically is going to determine how some players view the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

[Xilizhra]

AS I don't consider the Harrowing or Tranquility abuses, we have nothing to discuss here. No mages were being outfight abused in DAO outside of that I guess.  No ROA was ever declared or implemented. No Templars were raping or illegally tranuiling people or physically abusing or murdering mages.  So I will stick with my own head canon about circle relationships thank you and I reject yours .

These standards for abuse are gruesomely unhelpful.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I agree that that particular analogy is a tad inept. Perhaps a better one is a gun compared to a sword. Or if we are talking about abominations, a bomb.

Those work much better. I'd even say one could compare an abomination to a biological weapon since it can make more people abominations. But a nuclear weapon? No, comparing a mage to a nuclear weapon is an epitome of hyperbole. 

[Lulupab]

So far all abominations besides pride demon abominations such as Uldred were not that strong. They were a normal mage amplified a little bit.

[wcholcombe]

Cullen has same mind-set as Anders and in direct opposition. Not seeing mages as people but weapons. Think he has divine right etc... 

 

What distinguishes them from each other is the fact that Cullen is more of a realist, how many he would kill before getting killed himself. Not to mention he was not "persuaded" by a spirit nor he had such power as Anders did to do what he did.

 

Anders however is more of an idealist. He doesn't care about the power of the side he is fighting nor his own life matters to him. Mages must be free no matter what.  Rival romanced Anders to hawke: "Should I tell you the truth? There is noone in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill to see mages free"

We must be remembering two different Cullens.  The Cullen I encountered in DA2 was about protecting mages as much as he was protecting people from them.  He goes after people about dissappearing mages, he goes after Meredith ordering her to stand down when she orders Hawke executed, he saves mage prisoners from the right of annulment if you side with the templars. He is way more middle ground than Anders.

 

Anders is basically the pro mage Meredith.  Meredith goes off deep end from the red lyrium, Anders from his relationship with Justice.  I truly believe at one point Anders was supposed to be the evil mage boss, but bioware was afraid they would be lynched by the fan boys and girls for doing that to Anders. It would certainly have made more sense character development wise than what happened with Orsino.

[Master Warder Z_]

These standards for abuse are gruesomely unhelpful.

 

Bummer ain't it?

[Veruin]

These standards for abuse are gruesomely unhelpful.

Your pathetic case of moral superiority is making a comeback Xil.

[Master Warder Z_]

So far all abominations besides pride demon abominations such as Uldred were not that strong. They were a normal mage amplified a little bit.

 

Just offhandedly discounting the dozens of people they can kill then hrm?

 

Amazing.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

So far all abominations besides pride demon abominations such as Uldred were not that strong. They were a normal mage amplified a little bit.

It's been stated that the abominations are much more powerful in lore than shown in the games gameplay.

[Master Warder Z_]

It's been stated that the abominations are much more powerful in lore than shown in the games gameplay.

 

Considering a single abomination within lore was said to have killed 73 people i'd agree with that.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah and one of their mages almost destroyed world when he escaped just because qunari said him that he is dangerous and that is his role well no thanks but i don't want demon army destroying world because qunari screwd up... but hey at least it works better than circles so it is another prove that mages can't be controlled even by extreme measures why it is sane to eliminate danger before it actually manages blew up world , summon army of demons or bring another disaster to thedas...

 

You're..serious...

 

 

Right.   You just keep believing what you will, TKS.  I need more coffee.

[Xilizhra]

We must be remembering two different Cullens.  The Cullen I encountered in DA2 was about protecting mages as much as he was protecting people from them.  He goes after people about dissappearing mages, he goes after Meredith ordering her to stand down when she orders Hawke executed, he saves mage prisoners from the right of annulment if you side with the templars. He is way more middle ground than Anders.

 

Anders is basically the pro mage Meredith.  Meredith goes off deep end from the red lyrium, Anders from his relationship with Justice.  I truly believe at one point Anders was supposed to be the evil mage boss, but bioware was afraid they would be lynched by the fan boys and girls for doing that to Anders. It would certainly have made more sense character development wise than what happened with Orsino.

Those prisoners aren't going to make it out with their minds intact. As for Anders, Justice has made him somewhat crazy, but not completely; he can still hold it together enough at the end of the game, and siding with the mages at the end causes him to greatly improve.

Also, there didn't need to be a final boss aside from Meredith.

[dzs Angel]

For the most part I can agree with those sentiments.  However, I think Connor isn't a special case.  I think he is very much an indication of the dangers of Abominations.  Consider the tower, Templars are trained to fight abominations and some are still possessed by demons.  An abomination is a big threat capable of extreme destruction and power depending on the possessing demon.

Hawke and his Sister never fell for abominatios. Neither did Jowan who used to be a bloodmage. You can´t hold the entire society of mages responsible for the acts of a few irrational mages. Additional police forces(special forces) trained in fighting magic would be suffiecent . This forces should be controlled by each state of thedas. There is no need for circles. If you have to deal with a new sort of crime, create a new sort of police. The crimes of a few mages are no justification for slavery.

[TheKomandorShepard]

You're..serious...

 

 

 

Right.   You just keep believing what you will, TKS.  I need more coffee.

 

ekhm...

[Lulupab]

We must be remembering two different Cullens.  The Cullen I encountered in DA2 was about protecting mages as much as he was protecting people from them.  He goes after people about dissappearing mages, he goes after Meredith ordering her to stand down when she orders Hawke executed, he saves mage prisoners from the right of annulment if you side with the templars. He is way more middle ground than Anders.

 

Anders is basically the pro mage Meredith.  Meredith goes off deep end from the red lyrium, Anders from his relationship with Justice.  I truly believe at one point Anders was supposed to be the evil mage boss, but bioware was afraid they would be lynched by the fan boys and girls for doing that to Anders. It would certainly have made more sense character development wise than what happened with Orsino.

 

No. It was not even Anders who was going to get merged with Justice, it was suppose to be Velanna at first. 

[wcholcombe]

I don't think it's fair to paint all the templars with the same brush, but I think the Harrowing and the Rite of Tranquility explain the strong opposition some hold for the Chantry controlled Circles, and the status quo that was taking place for nearly a thousand years. Enforcing an institution that some oppose morally and ethnically is going to determine how some players view the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars.

 

 

These standards for abuse are gruesomely unhelpful.

Sorry, my middle ground stance accounts for the necessity of some practices those on both sides of the debate find distasteful.  Your reaction to my take on Harrowing and Tranquility is probably the same as TKS and MWZ reactions to thinking trained mages should be able to live outside of the tower.  But hey, being the middle ground I am used to ticking people off.  I don't compromise what I believe is right and necessary for the good of all to make others feel better I would expect the same from ya'll.

[Master Warder Z_]

Hawke and his Sister never fell for abominatios. Neither did Jowan who used to be a bloodmage. You can´t hold the entire society of mages responsible for the acts of a few irrational mages. Additional police forces(special forces) trained in fighting magic would be suffiecent . This forces should be controlled by each state of thedas. There is no need for circles. If you have to deal with a new sort of crime, create a new sort of police. The crimes of a few mages are no justification for slavery.

 

Again cease with the Hyperbole, The Circle isn't Slavery.

 

It is containment.

[Steelcan]

I see this thread is still a productive and civil one

[Xilizhra]

Sorry, my middle ground stance accounts for the necessity of some practices those on both sides of the debate find distasteful.  Your reaction to my take on Harrowing and Tranquility is probably the same as TKS and MWZ reactions to thinking trained mages should be able to live outside of the tower.  But hey, being the middle ground I am used to ticking people off.  I don't compromise what I believe is right and necessary for the good of all to make others feel better I would expect the same from ya'll.

I think I smell a Golden Mean fallacy in here; taking the "middle ground" does not necessarily mean you're right. If the middle ground between equality and slavery was segregation, that wouldn't make segregation right either.

[Veruin]

Again cease with the Hyperbole, The Circle isn't Slavery.

 

It is containment.

People can call it a gilded cage if they want, but the mages aren't forced to do anything the mudanes aren't. (Ignoring education, but that's a positive requirement, not a negative one.) So, by definition, it isn't slavery.

 

I see this thread is still a productive and civil one

Did you expect otherwise?

[Veruin]

I think I smell a Golden Mean fallacy in here; taking the "middle ground" does not necessarily mean you're right. If the middle ground between equality and slavery was segregation, that wouldn't make segregation right either.

It's a damn real shame you're incapable of taking your own advice.

[wcholcombe]

Hawke and his Sister never fell for abominatios. Neither did Jowan who used to be a bloodmage. You can´t hold the entire society of mages responsible for the acts of a few irrational mages. Additional police forces(special forces) trained in fighting magic would be suffiecent . This forces should be controlled by each state of thedas. There is no need for circles. If you have to deal with a new sort of crime, create a new sort of police. The crimes of a few mages are no justification for slavery.

I already said I don't believe mages sneeze and become abominations and that I believe trained mages should be allowed to live outside the circles.  But yes, please use heroic characters as justification for what will occur with all mages. 

 

THis is my issue with the promage/antitemplars, if things worked the way ya'll propose, Abominations wouldn't occur nearly as often as they do in DA lore.  The idea that abominations only occur when mages are pressed or when the veil is weak or when a demon is summoned is a straw man argument.  Abominations sadly occur.  They are a reality and good mages succumb to possession as well as power hungry mustache twirling hacks.  I don't think mages need to locked up forever, however they do need to be properly trained and they do need to have some supervision to mitigate the occurences.  Seriously, is a 1 week retreat at a circle twice a year that much to ask?

[wcholcombe]

I think I smell a Golden Mean fallacy in here; taking the "middle ground" does not necessarily mean you're right. If the middle ground between equality and slavery was segregation, that wouldn't make segregation right either.

When did I say I was right for taking the middle ground? lol I said it is what I believe is right.  Those are two entirely different things.  I am certain most if not all of the worst acts in human history were perpetrated by people who knew/thought they were right.

 

Xil, we are all expressing our opinions here. None of us is right.

[Xilizhra]

Seriously, is a 1 week retreat at a circle twice a year that much to ask?

With the sword of the current Templar Order hanging over their heads? Yes.

 

When did I say I was right for taking the middle ground? lol I said it is what I believe is right.  Those are two entirely different things.  I am certain most if not all of the worst acts in human history were perpetrated by people who knew/thought they were right.

As were the best.

[eyezonlyii]

I already said I don't believe mages sneeze and become abominations and that I believe trained mages should be allowed to live outside the circles.  But yes, please use heroic characters as justification for what will occur with all mages. 

 

THis is my issue with the promage/antitemplars, if things worked the way ya'll propose, Abominations wouldn't occur nearly as often as they do in DA lore.  The idea that abominations only occur when mages are pressed or when the veil is weak or when a demon is summoned is a straw man argument.  Abominations sadly occur.  They are a reality and good mages succumb to possession as well as power hungry mustache twirling hacks.  I don't think mages need to locked up forever, however they do need to be properly trained and they do need to have some supervision to mitigate the occurences.  Seriously, is a 1 week retreat at a circle twice a year that much to ask?

 

I'd actually just be up for making Templar training compulsory for a city/town guard. That way you know there are Templars on duty, and they don't have to interfere with a mage's day to day living.