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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#26
Nightdragon8

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leaguer of one wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

It pains me to say it but Meredith was right. There was blood magic in the circle or at the very least just Orsino. And Orsino learned it from some complete nutjob who happened to be a mage. She didn't call the right of annulment because of Anders, it was the blood magic. The only thing Anders did was get rid of the one that was holding her leash.

One blood mage the use of the Right of Annulment does not warrant. That's like saying there is a murderer hiding in a town, so let's kill the entire town.

It was not just one blood mage.


see but it was at that point, she didn't know O was a bloodmage. And she clearly stated her "reasons" for using the Right. "A mage caused the death of the divine, thus all mages are as guilty." Paraphrasing. "Its out of my hands"

Had nothing to do with bloodmages. she just used the act as a way to kill every mage in Kirkwall.

Cause apartenly a blood mage killed her handmadin Tranquill.

#27
Potato Cat

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Realmzmaster wrote...

If your Hawke found the notes left by the Band of Three the player knows that Tevinter conducted blood sacrifice on a massive scale to weaken the veil in and around Kirkwall. The whole city was constructed according to magical symbols. The magisters may have been trying to call the Forbidden Ones like Xebenkeck and Gaxkang the Unbound


This is my explanation for why DA2 was so bat**** crazy in its representation. Kirkwall's basically the Sunnydale of the Dragon Age-verse.
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#28
ames4u

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OdanUrr wrote...

Read Asunder. To my mind, it's far more balanced in its presentation of mages and templars, both the good and the bad, than, say, DA2.


This.

Plus the whole purpose of DA2 was to push the idea that mages are bad too. Which was why they were presented so poorly. It all came off really badly and made me hate the Chantry, Templars and Blood Magic all the more. So the writers attempts to make me second guess helping mages failed badly.


In Asunder, I wanted to smother Adrian in her sleep after what she did.

Modifié par ames4u, 15 février 2014 - 12:35 .

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#29
OdanUrr

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ames4u wrote...

In Asunder, I wanted to smother X in X sleep after what X did.


Posted Image


But, yeah, Adrian was a piece of work.^_^
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#30
Navasha

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The writers have a nearly impossible job if trying to make the two sides equally viewed is their goal. The two factions don't start from equal positions. The mages are clearly under the power and authority of the Templars, who have complete control over the lives of their charges. The onus and responsibility for everything that happens ultimately falls upon the Templars, since that is the way they setup the system.

Look at a real life analogy. How many people blame the children when they lash out and kill their parents who abused them their whole lives? Trying to showcase that its just as much the childs fault that they were abused is a pretty hard stance to try to generate any sympathy for the parents.

#31
Lotion Soronarr

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KaiserShep wrote...

MR_PN wrote...

It pains me to say it but Meredith was right. There was blood magic in the circle or at the very least just Orsino. And Orsino learned it from some complete nutjob who happened to be a mage. She didn't call the right of annulment because of Anders, it was the blood magic. The only thing Anders did was get rid of the one that was holding her leash.


If the Right of Annulment was to be invoked on account of the presence of blood mages in Kirkwall, then she would have done this long before the chantry's destruction. Plenty of blood mage apostates were found in or around the city during the years before Anders' attack that she knew of, one of which being a crazy necromancer. Anders' actions may have been the tipping point, but the fact remains that calling for the Right was a very clear case of abuse of authority. The Circle had no connection to the attack, and Meredith had no proof of Orsino's connection. She and Hawke can be suspicious, but you don't get to wipe out an entire group of people on the sole basis of bad feelings.



Umm... you do know Meredith did ask for a RoA (because of all the blood mages and plotting) before Anders blew up the Chantry, but Elthina said no?

#32
Lotion Soronarr

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Navasha wrote...
The onus and responsibility for everything that happens ultimately falls upon the Templars, since that is the way they setup the system.


No it does not.
Mages are not children and templars don't have total control over them.

#33
9TailsFox

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You can't present something what is uneven. Templars put people in jail for crimes they didn't commit even children regardless age.

Modifié par 9TailsFox, 16 février 2014 - 12:56 .


#34
9TailsFox

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Navasha wrote...
The onus and responsibility for everything that happens ultimately falls upon the Templars, since that is the way they setup the system.


No it does not.
Mages are not children and templars don't have total control over them.


Some mages are children taken from family by force.

#35
KaiserShep

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Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Umm... you do know Meredith did ask for a RoA (because of all the blood mages and plotting) before Anders blew up the Chantry, but Elthina said no?


Huh, I don't remember that. Which Act does this take place? 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Navasha wrote...
The
onus and responsibility for everything that happens ultimately falls
upon the Templars, since that is the way they setup the system.


No it does not.
Mages are not children and templars don't have total control over them.


The Circle can take in children as young as 6. That said, the Circle is basically a prison of sorts. If you run a facility which has the sole purpose of keeping a certain population in check, that population is the responsibility of the people that run it.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 15 février 2014 - 01:41 .

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#36
Hanako Ikezawa

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KaiserShep wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Umm... you do know Meredith did ask for a RoA (because of all the blood mages and plotting) before Anders blew up the Chantry, but Elthina said no?


Huh, I don't remember that. Which Act does this take place? 

Act 3. You only learn this if you let Ser Karras live in Act 1, hence why most seem to miss it.

#37
KaiserShep

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Yeah I generally prefer to kill him, but I did let him live on my last playthrough. I assume you have to cycle through his random NPC lines to get this, yes?

#38
MisterJB

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9TailsFox wrote...

You can present something what is uneven. Templars put people in jail for crimes they didn't commit even children regardless age.

The Templars put dangerous people in isolated schools where the standard of living is above that of the general population so that they do not hurt others.
It's prevention and it's a most reasonable system.

9TailsFox wrote...
Some mages are children taken from family by force.

And they're better off in the Circle where there is not the risk of them setting the house on fire in their sleep with their parents inside or of mobs of angry vigilantes knocking on their door.

Modifié par MisterJB, 15 février 2014 - 01:56 .

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#39
MisterJB

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KaiserShep wrote...
The Circle can take in children as young as 6. That said, the Circle is basically a prison of sorts. If you run a facility which has the sole purpose of keeping a certain population in check, that population is the responsibility of the people that run it.

If a mage escapes the Circle and decides his time in there entitles him to kill normal people, the only fault of the Templars was failing to contain him. They are not to blame for the lack of morals of said mage.

#40
Inprea

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MisterJB wrote...
The Templars put dangerous people in isolated schools where the standard of living is above that of the general population so that they do not hurt others.
It's prevention and it's a most reasonable system.


You've made that claim before but what proof do you have that the quality of life of a mage is superior to that of your average person? The templars steal children from mage parents. How much value do you put on being able to love and raise your child? How much value do you put on privacy? How much worth do you put on having to fight a demon in a death match?

Do you know what kind of psychological damage always feeling a sword at your back can cause? Then they're the mages that are actually tortured or raped by the templars whom we never see punished by the people that should be keeping them in line and typically get away with such behavior for years.

What value do you put on these things that makes you say that the mages have a better life then an average person? For me the fact that the templars take the mages children to an unknown fate, for all the mages know they drown them, is a huge minus.

I can't say I know the full pain of having your child taken but I was with my sibling while she fought to keep her son whenever his father left her. Enduring the expense of raising the child even without the father's aid was far preferrable to the child being taken for her and us as a family. Would we have more money if we let him taken the child? Heck yeah. Would it be worth it? No.

MisterJB wrote...
And they're better off in the Circle where there is not the risk of them setting the house on fire in their sleep with their parents inside or of mobs of angry vigilantes knocking on their door.


You mean the circle where they're going to most assuredly have to fight for their lives against a demon or be told they're too weak and made tranquil. That depends entirely on the type of environment the parents can provide as well and if they could higher someone to teach the child properly. The templars force a system where the parents have to hide the child though if they want to keep them making the situation even more dangerous.

Modifié par Inprea, 15 février 2014 - 03:19 .


#41
TheKomandorShepard

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Inprea wrote...


You've made that claim before but what proof do you have that the quality of life of a mage is superior to that of your average person? The templars steal children from mage parents. How much value do you put on being able to love and raise your child? How much value do you put on privacy? How much worth do you put on having to fight a demon in a death match?



What prove lets see much better living conditions than most peoples in thedas have they have noble standards how do we know first mage origin second description of orlesian circles they live like kings...
That should be done better than give unstable bombs to parents so it is without questions i didn't saw many mages crying about that outside Anders...

Do you know what kind of psychological damage always feeling a sword at your back can cause?"

And do you know what kind of damage abomnation can cause much more than psychological damage to mage and all you need is few moments to become one...
if mages felt that sword they would behave themelves but as we seen that isn't in case...

Then they're the mages that are actually tortured or raped by the
templars whom we never see punished by the people that should be keeping
them in line and typically get away with such behavior for years.


Such things always will be in case deal with it and we saw only 2 cases when we saw 1000 mages spreading damage and destruction much more than few rapes...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 février 2014 - 03:07 .


#42
Zazzerka

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...

they live like kings...

No, they live like patients in a mental institution. Comfortable, waited on hand and foot, and all the board games they could want, but not truly free.

#43
TheKomandorShepard

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Zazzerka wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

they live like kings...

No, they live like patients in a mental institution. Comfortable, waited on hand and foot, and all the board games they could want, but not truly free.


They have much better standarts than patients in mental institution... from that i have seen they have better conditions than arl eamon... outisde freedom they have kings life great food and living conditions much better than most of thedas... they bit*** about nothing :whistle:

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 15 février 2014 - 03:15 .


#44
Zazzerka

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Arl Eamon can pop down to the shops for a can of Coke and a Snickers.

#45
Br3admax

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I feel as if introducing TVs to the Circle is the most efficient solution. I'd know I'd be all for it, the Circles had TVs.

Modifié par Br3ad, 15 février 2014 - 03:16 .


#46
TheKomandorShepard

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Zazzerka wrote...

Arl Eamon can pop down to the shops for a can of Coke and a Snickers.


see mages already have better because they have delivery :lol:

#47
Zazzerka

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Unless the Knight-Commander decides that Snickers is contraband due to the peanuts, and only allows them Cherry Ripes.

God, I hate Cherry Ripes.

#48
MisterJB

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Inprea wrote...
You've made that claim before but what proof do you have that the quality of life of a mage is superior to that of your average person?

The fact that we have seen how both groups live. The Circle is certainly much more luxurious than the house of the average person in Redcliff or Denerim and then there is also the fact mages have access to services, such as a free education and food, whereas your average orlesian; one of the most advanced countries; can't even read.

The templars steal children from mage parents. How much value do you put on being able to love and raise your child? How much value do you put on privacy? How much worth do you put on having to fight a demon in a death match?

There are, of course, special restrictions and requirements that come from life in the Circle but when was the last time a mage's sheep were slaughtered by Darkspawn which lead to their families starving and when he stole a couple of sacks of grain from the crown, he found himself facing a noose? When was the last time a mage found himself a refugee outside of city walls, hunger and disease everywhere while waiting for the enemy army to arrive?
Mages live an enviable, sheltered life. That they can wonder just how free they are is a luxury.

And before anyone says that the suffering of normal people does not make the suffering of mages any less real, do keep in mind that the point of this debate is who live better lives.

Do you know what kind of psychological damage always feeling a sword at your back can cause?

They do not live with a sword at their back anymore than a kirkwaller does just because the guardsmen are around.

Then they're the mages that are actually tortured or raped by the templars whom we never see punished by the people that should be keeping them in line and typically get away with such behavior for years.

First of all, we've seen a grand total of two cases of Templars taking advantage of their charges in that matter and both took great pains to conceal their crime.
Second, this is not unheard of in the outside world. Abuse of power is not something exclusive to Templars.  

For me the fact that the templars take the mages children to an unknown fate, for all the mages know they drown them, is a huge minus.

The mages know very well what happens to their accidental children. They are given to the care and, if they eventually reveal themselves to be mages, then they are sent to a Circle.
This is because:
a) The Chantry would never waste resources by drowning them.
B) Some mages like Rhys are accidental babies and can tell other mages their story.

You mean the circle where they're going to most assuredly have to fight for their lives against a demon or be told they're too weak and made tranquil.

I mean the Circle where they will enjoy the companionship of other mages and be provided with free shelter, food, clothing and education.
 

That depends entirely on the type of environment the parents can provide as well and if they could higher someone to teach the child properly.

Only the wealthy would be able to. And the danger would always be there.

The templars force a system where the parents have to hide the child though if they want to keep them making the situation even more dangerous.

Unfortunate but there are no other options. If the parents fail to understand the danger they children now pose to themselves and everyone around them; such as Meredith's family; then the following chaos will be on their heads, not the Templars'. Meredith's sister killed 72 before the Templars managed to stop her.

A mage living with his family ranks shorter on my list of priorities when compared to the lives of those 72 people.

#49
TheKomandorShepard

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Zazzerka wrote...

Unless the Knight-Commander decides that Snickers is contraband due to the peanuts, and only allows them Cherry Ripes.

God, I hate Cherry Ripes.


Good they aren't worth it they are mostly useless and only cause damage often all snickers will land in my inquisitor vault :devil:

#50
EmperorSahlertz

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Those 72 people were suredly happy in the knowledge that they died at the hands of a "free" mage....