8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Mage/Templar discussion is much more toxic than IT ever was, and yet only one of them has been banned?

 

WHERE IS THE JUSTICE

[wcholcombe]

Those prisoners aren't going to make it out with their minds intact. As for Anders, Justice has made him somewhat crazy, but not completely; he can still hold it together enough at the end of the game, and siding with the mages at the end causes him to greatly improve.

Also, there didn't need to be a final boss aside from Meredith.

Source Xil, please no head cannon. 

"During the Act 3 Finale, Cullen and the other templars attack the Gallows after Meredith invokes the Right of Annulment. If Hawke sides with the templars, they will be asked to decide the fate of 3 mages who surrender. Cullen remarks that some mages were saved at the Fereldan Circle. If Hawke asks Cullen for an opinion, Cullen questions the necessity of annulling the Kirkwall Circle. He says the situation in Ferelden was much more dire and even then they saved some of the mages. In response, Meredith asks Cullen if he would take responsibility if it is proven that their prisoners are blood mages, Cullen answers that he believes that is what being a templar is about."

 

So clearly Cullen agrees with the idea of saving the mages as they were saved in Ferelden in which case none of them were tranquiled.  He doesn't compromise on his stance regarding blood mages which makes sense, but Cullen is a far more rational character.

 

And yes Xil, not surprisingly we disagree, I think whoever blew up the chantry should have been a evil boss character instead of Orsino.

 

No. It was not even Anders who was going to get merged with Justice, it was suppose to be Velanna at first. 

Well than I think Velanna should have been the evil mage bad.  You connect the chantry distruction with hiding blood mages and the do anything aspect and whoever that is would make far more sense than Orsino did.

[wcholcombe]

Mage/Templar discussion is much more toxic than IT ever was, and yet only one of them has been banned?

 

WHERE IS THE JUSTICE

actually I consider this far more civil than it was on the old boards.

[Veruin]

Mage/Templar discussion is much more toxic than IT ever was, and yet only one of them has been banned?

 

WHERE IS THE JUSTICE

Bioware forums have become very politically correct.  Afraid of offending anyone.

 

Just take a look at what they censor.

[Xilizhra]

Mage/Templar discussion is much more toxic than IT ever was, and yet only one of them has been banned?

 

WHERE IS THE JUSTICE

This was deliberately put in the game.

 

Source Xil, please no head cannon.

David Gaider quote, give me a bit to find it.

[dragonflight288]

I think I smell a Golden Mean fallacy in here; taking the "middle ground" does not necessarily mean you're right. If the middle ground between equality and slavery was segregation, that wouldn't make segregation right either.

 

Let me expand on the Golden Mean. It doesn't even mean middle ground all the time. It actually is relative based on the situation. 

 

For example, a soldier on the battlefield. The golden mean between reckless and coward is courageous, but what is courageous changes on the situation. In one instance, being overly aggressive accomplishes nothing but get you killed and you need to be more discreet or more defensive. But in other situations the best call may actually be an aggressive, almost reckless action. 

 

The golden mean is taking a situation, and achieving the nominal emotion between two extremes, but the course of action can change based on circumstances. 

 

Not contradicting you, but expanding on what you said. 

[LobselVith8]

Your pathetic case of moral superiority is making a comeback Xil.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with moral superiority; I think certain Circle practices like the Rite of Tranquility, the Right of Annulment, and the Harrowing are going to cause some people to strongly disagree with what's done in the Chantry controlled institutions.

[Hellion Rex]

Mage/Templar discussion is much more toxic than IT ever was, and yet only one of them has been banned?

 

WHERE IS THE JUSTICE

This is hardly toxic, dude.

[wcholcombe]

With the sword of the current Templar Order hanging over their heads? Yes.

 

 

 

As were the best.

Xil, you haven't read any of my discussions about my idea for fixing the circles have you. At no point have I advocated the templars occupying the position of absolute authority they currently possess.

 

And even those who did the best were only doing what they believed was right, history may say it was, but it was still their opinion at the time.

[Grieving Natashina]

I don't think it has anything to do with moral superiority; I think certain Circle practices like the Rite of Tranquility, the Right of Annulment, and the Harrowing are going to cause some people to strongly disagree with what's done in the Chantry controlled institutions.

That sums it up for me.

[Steelcan]

I don't think it has anything to do with moral superiority; I think certain Circle practices like the Rite of Tranquility, the Right of Annulment, and the Harrowing are going to cause some people to strongly disagree with what's done in the Chantry controlled institutions.

That, and Xil does have an undeniable sense of moral superiority, which I find utterly hilarious

[Veruin]

I don't think it has anything to do with moral superiority; I think certain Circle practices like the Rite of Tranquility, the Right of Annulment, and the Harrowing are going to cause some people to strongly disagree with what's done in the Chantry controlled institutions.

It more has to do with Xil's general.  "This is what I believe is right, so it's the correct choice.  Let me shame you into siding with me." Not really about the anullments or anything.

 

Xil is so full of itself, it's a mixed number.

[dzs Angel]

I already said I don't believe mages sneeze and become abominations and that I believe trained mages should be allowed to live outside the circles.  But yes, please use heroic characters as justification for what will occur with all mages. 

 

THis is my issue with the promage/antitemplars, if things worked the way ya'll propose, Abominations wouldn't occur nearly as often as they do in DA lore.  The idea that abominations only occur when mages are pressed or when the veil is weak or when a demon is summoned is a straw man argument.  Abominations sadly occur.  They are a reality and good mages succumb to possession as well as power hungry mustache twirling hacks.  I don't think mages need to locked up forever, however they do need to be properly trained and they do need to have some supervision to mitigate the occurences.  Seriously, is a 1 week retreat at a circle twice a year that much to ask?

I would have to agree to proper training, because mages need proper training. 

[Xilizhra]

Xil, you haven't read any of my discussions about my idea for fixing the circles have you. At no point have I advocated the templars occupying the position of absolute authority they currently possess.

 

And even those who did the best were only doing what they believed was right, history may say it was, but it was still their opinion at the time.

I have. I still don't trust the templars in the slightest; I don't think their internal culture could be made to change enough after so long.

 

Also, I found that DG quote:

http://social.biowar...index/6960031/1

 

"The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright."

[AresKeith]

I think I smell a Golden Mean fallacy in here; taking the "middle ground" does not necessarily mean you're right. If the middle ground between equality and slavery was segregation, that wouldn't make segregation right either.

Fail to see how that's a fallacy since the middle ground people seems to be most logical in these discussions as we see the benefits of both sides

[Steelcan]

"something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances."

 

Huh, how about that

[wcholcombe]

I don't think it has anything to do with moral superiority; I think certain Circle practices like the Rite of Tranquility, the Right of Annulment, and the Harrowing are going to cause some people to strongly disagree with what's done in the Chantry controlled institutions.

I get that, I have long maintaned that my plan won't please everyone.  However, the extremes won't make everyone happy either.  Templars subjudgating mages will make mages and their supporters mad.  Freeing the mages outright will horrify the chantry followers/commoners and I predict will lead to a great deal of dead mages and poor unfortunates wrongly suspected of being free mages.

 

And please be more original in your argument against me than saying that is the Chantry's fault. I really don't want to side track back into the evils of the chantry debate.

[wcholcombe]

I have. I still don't trust the templars in the slightest; I don't think their internal culture could be made to change enough after so long.

 

Also, I found that DG quote:

http://social.biowar...index/6960031/1

 

"The issue is this:

By the time the Right of Annulment is invoked, the tower in question has moved beyond the possibility of mages being brought under control enough that Tranquility would even be possible. It's possible some mages might survive the initial assault, but the order cannot be "take any prisoners you can" simply because by that point a mage might have been corrupted and become a blood mage... something which cannot be detected under normal circumstances. Thus capturing them becomes a means for them to escape the quarantine.

So therefore the order is "kill everyone". At the end of the day, if any mages are still alive for whatever reason... then, yes, I imagine they could theroretically be made Tranquil as opposed to executed outright."

Ok, with all do respect to DG, I think Cullen is specifically pulling on his experiences in Ferelden where it worked out to spare mages who weren't abominations.  I am sorry but I don't think after he succeeds meredith he would be killing or tranquiling any of the prisoners.  Quite a bit of growth from DAO for him.

[Steelcan]

btw who was banned?

 

Who?  Several ITers got the axe afterwards

[Steelcan]

If I support the RoA does that mean I am a supporter of genocide?  Perhaps a fetishist for it?

[Xilizhra]

Ok, with all do respect to DG, I think Cullen is specifically pulling on his experiences in Ferelden where it worked out to spare mages who weren't abominations.  I am sorry but I don't think after he succeeds meredith he would be killing or tranquiling any of the prisoners.  Quite a bit of growth from DAO for him.

More templars are being sent from outside the city to restore order (also, the mages are only spared if there isn't actually an Annulment in Ferelden); it's hardly clear if Cullen will even be in charge for long, and even if he is, he sees Tranquility as a mercy, as shown if you speak to him after completing Dissent.

[dragonflight288]

If I support the RoA does that mean I am a supporter of genocide?  Perhaps a fetishist for it?

 

The Right of Annulment, is by definition, genocide. Including elderly and children. 

[Master Warder Z_]

If I support the RoA does that mean I am a supporter of genocide?  Perhaps a fetishist for it?

 

Heh i'd say not.

[wcholcombe]

It more has to do with Xil's general.  "This is what I believe is right, so it's the correct choice.  Let me shame you into siding with me." Not really about the anullments or anything.

 

Xil is so full of itself, it's a mixed number.

nah, she is no more full of herself than the rest of us. I don't see many of us laying down are arguments and agreeing with our opposites.

[LobselVith8]

I get that, I have long maintaned that my plan won't please everyone.  However, the extremes won't make everyone happy either.  Templars subjudgating mages will make mages and their supporters mad.  Freeing the mages outright will horrify the chantry followers/commoners and I predict will lead to a great deal of dead mages and poor unfortunates wrongly suspected of being free mages.

 

And please be more original in your argument against me than saying that is the Chantry's fault. I really don't want to side track back into the evils of the chantry debate.

 

I point out that it's an issue of contention with the disagreement with the Chantry controlled Circles since the Circles of Magi seem to have now been either emancipated or dissolved since the events of Asunder.

 

Frankly, I don't think a consensus will be possible between the two sides.