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[wcholcombe]

When arguing against a position advocated by at least two posters who claim to identify with D&D alignments on the "evil" side of the spectrum, and when taking a position in favor of the rights of an oppressed minority against the tyranny of a religious majority, well... How the hell would anyone not have a sense of moral superiority?

 

Frankly, I came to this debate with a lot of apathy. The "kill all mages" and "all mages are insane morons" diatribes, in particular some really venomous and altogether baseless opinions regarding Merrill, have driven me pretty solidly into the "pro-mage" camp. The "anti-mage" position has become repugnant.

lol.  You have read the calls for genocide against all templars by some pro mages haven't you?  Or the calls for the destruction of an entire religious order largely based on the occurences of DA2 or the idea that Elthena deserved to die and so did all the people in the Chantry when it blew?  Neither side is free of its jihadist genocidal maniacs.

 

BTW, Dura it surprises me that you became promage just because people have a differing view of merril than you.  Sorry that just surprises me coming from you, I expected something else that wasn't a reaction to others not liking a character.

[dragonflight288]

When arguing against a position advocated by at least two posters who claim to identify with D&D alignments on the "evil" side of the spectrum, and when taking a position in favor of the rights of an oppressed minority against the tyranny of a religious majority, well... How the hell would anyone not have a sense of moral superiority?

 

Frankly, I came to this debate with a lot of apathy. The "kill all mages" and "all mages are insane morons" diatribes, in particular some really venomous and altogether baseless opinions regarding Merrill, have driven me pretty solidly into the "pro-mage" camp. The "anti-mage" position has become repugnant.

 

It was actually the whole 'anti-mage' position and extremism, added in that those who support it claim pragmatism over morality that turned me on the forums from "sympathetic to the plight of mages" to "supportive of their freedom."

 

I started debating this topic three years ago (has it really been that long!?!) and my opinions haven't changed, but the group I offer my support to has solidified. 

 

Connor had little personal power, just a lot of time to summon other demons into corpses. When actually fighting Connor, the demon isn't too impressive. Uldred is more powerful, but pride demons are at the top of the hierarchy and quite rare.

 

Add in that Isolde was going out of her way to protect Connor from any consequences, and even if Redcliff gets completely destroyed, Isolde is STILL hiding the fact that he's been possessed, allowing the Desire Demon to do more and more damage as she won't go to the templars and she wouldn't even consider going to the Circle until the choice was kill her son or die in a blood magic ritual, and even then she preferred the blood magic ritual to save her son's life. 

[dragonflight288]

That's not why I find Xil's self righteousness hilarious, good try though

 

I came to BSN fairly pro-mage, then the pro-mage crowd turned me off of that

 

I came fairly neutral, and the pro-templar extremism turned me off from their cause. 

[LobselVith8]

neither do I.  However, that is why I plan on using the inquisition./Chantry to make both sides sit down and shut up.

 

If the coronation artwork is any indication, your Inquisitor may be able to get Chantry support. I, on the other hand, will likely going to walk a different path.

[Master Warder Z_]

and even then she preferred the blood magic ritual to save her son's life. 

 

Because as she put it Eamon would only have her if connar died, a wife who lied to him and cost him his realm.

[wcholcombe]

Connor had little personal power, just a lot of time to summon other demons into corpses. When actually fighting Connor, the demon isn't too impressive. Uldred is more powerful, but pride demons are at the top of the hierarchy and quite rare.

He is capable of wiping out Redcliff Castle and Village while holding the entire castle in thrall.  Redcliff village is 200 people, not sure what the population of the castle is, but that is impressive powerful in my book.

[Grieving Natashina]

Come join us in the middle then.  We've got the best seats in the house!

[Master Warder Z_]

I came fairly neutral, and the pro-templar extremism turned me off from their cause. 

 

._. I came in fairly pro templar if i am being honest, Although a couple arguments from the pro mage crowd made me a bit more...hardliner in belief.

[Xilizhra]

He is capable of wiping out Redcliff Castle and Village while holding the entire castle in thrall.  Redcliff village is 200 people, not sure what the population of the castle is, but that is impressive powerful in my book.

Killing servants and animating them isn't exactly a feat of massive power, and once the ball starts rolling, the army will start to grow itself just by killing people, while Connor has to do very little.

[Veruin]

He is capable of wiping out Redcliff Castle and Village while holding the entire castle in thrall.  Redcliff village is 200 people, not sure what the population of the castle is, but that is impressive powerful in my book.

Not to mention he had to kill people to get those zombie corpses in the first place.

[Master Warder Z_]

Come join us in the middle then.  We've got the best seats in the house!

 

We have the best Logo though!

 

Our Symbololgy is awesome!

[Steelcan]

Come join us in the middle then.  We've got the best seats in the house!

This is where I try to stay for Mage/Templar

 

 

But screw the elves

[wcholcombe]

If the coronation artwork is any indication, your Inquisitor may be able to get Chantry support. I, on the other hand, will likely going to walk a different path.

I would be worried if you didn't, heres hoping you can.

 

Btw, just because I have posted in other threads that I don't think we will be able to give the dalish a country of thier own, doesn't necessarily mean I wouldn't.  It sucks to live the Dalish/city elf life. I get that, but the way it implemented will matter.

[Hellion Rex]

I was a pro-mage once that would have made Anders weep for joy...dark days indeed.

[Veruin]

This is where I try to stay for Mage/Templar

 

 

But screw the elves

Meh, I don't mind helping the city elves.

 

But screw the Dalish.

[dragonflight288]

Because as she put it Eamon would only have her if connar died, a wife who lied to him and cost him his realm.

 

And who's fault is that? Connor's? Nope. Eamon's? Nope.

 

The fault for the secrecy and hiding Connor's talents all lie on her. That was probably the one point she was willing to take any accountability for her actions. And she never ever seems to show any remorse for the people died, so long as her son stayed alive. 

 

Now, that isn't to say I blame her for the whole thing. It probably wouldn't have happened if she hired a competent apostate instead of Jowan. It definitely wouldn't have happened if Loghain hadn't hired a blood mage to poison Eamon, and so on. The whole thing was a bloody convoluted mess and removing any of the multiple factors may have prevented the tragedy from happening. 

[Grieving Natashina]

We have the best Logo though!

 

Our Symbololgy is awesome!

 

LOL and have to dress like that?  No thanks, I'm good with no logos.  The only one I'll take is the one that's on the Inquisition banner.  

 

Thanks for the offer though, I'll buy ya a drink sometime.

[wcholcombe]

Killing servants and animating them isn't exactly a feat of massive power, and once the ball starts rolling, the army will start to grow itself just by killing people, while Connor has to do very little.

You seen any other mages walking around with an army of undead?  You do realize that each of those "animated" skeletons is a minor demon he is dominating don't you?  I am sorry, but the abomination in Redcliff has my complete respect of its power.  Just making Teagan dance was impressive for me.

[Master Warder Z_]

Now, that isn't to say I blame her for the whole thing. It probably wouldn't have happened if she hired a competent apostate

 

I do, She is the primary cause for the entirety of the situation for not letting the boy go to the circle to begin with.

[Veruin]

LOL and have to dress like that?  No thanks, I'm good with no logos.  The only one I'll take is the one that's on the Inquisition banner.

 

Thanks for the offer though, I'll buy ya a drink sometime.

Whichever faction has a wolf on its banner gets my support.

[wcholcombe]

And who's fault is that? Connor's? Nope. Eamon's? Nope.

 

The fault for the secrecy and hiding Connor's talents all lie on her. That was probably the one point she was willing to take any accountability for her actions. And she never ever seems to show any remorse for the people died, so long as her son stayed alive. 

 

Now, that isn't to say I blame her for the whole thing. It probably wouldn't have happened if she hired a competent apostate instead of Jowan. It definitely wouldn't have happened if Loghain hadn't hired a blood mage to poison Eamon, and so on. The whole thing was a bloody convoluted mess and removing any of the multiple factors may have prevented the tragedy from happening. 

I am missing the argument this is pertaining to?  We were arguing if the abomination is powerful or just a little amped up mage...not who was at fault.

[Steelcan]

I do love sacrificing Isolde in the ritual, at least she goes out relatively quietly

[Master Warder Z_]

LOL and have to dress like that?  No thanks, I'm good with no logos.  The only one I'll take is the one that's on the Inquisition banner.

 

Thanks for the offer though, I'll buy ya a drink sometime.

 

Heavy Plate isn't your thing huh?

 

Fair enough

[Xilizhra]

LOL and have to dress like that?  No thanks, I'm good with no logos.  The only one I'll take is the one that's on the Inquisition banner.

 

Thanks for the offer though, I'll buy ya a drink sometime.

Don't worry, I'll buy the drink myself, and you can give it to him.

 

 

You seen any other mages walking around with an army of undead?  You do realize that each of those "animated" skeletons is a minor demon he is dominating don't you?  I am sorry, but the abomination in Redcliff has my complete respect of its power.  Just making Teagan dance was impressive for me.

Um... every blood mage boss in Kirkwall, pretty much?

[durasteel]

Fail to see how that's a fallacy since the middle ground people seems to be most logical in these discussions as we see the benefits of both sides

 

The middle ground is a subjective perspective, because we're not (most of us) really advocating "extremes." Extreme positions would be outright mage enslavement (Qunari) versus outright mage dominance (Tevinter.) None of the mage advocates are suggesting a magocracy, and only one lunatic is on that fringe of the templar advocates.

 

Between those extremes, mage independance in a self-policing structure and mage internment under Templar dominance are both, relatively speaking, "middle ground."

 

It's way too easy to just move your position toward the extreme, then offer to compromise at a "reasonable" middle ground position that is more-or-less the position you started from.