When Meredith crawls out of the grave and detonates an explosive in a place of worship killing a bunch of priests you gimmie a holler okay?
Nonetheless, she did authorize an Annulment that lead to many deaths on both sides, not that I am justifying the actions of Anders by any stretch of the imagination.
Crawling out of the grave...I take it you're referring to the short story?
Oh and so Meredith seeing blood magic everywhere, including in her own Templars that disagreed with her in the end, is oh so much better. 
Please, you're defending someone just as crazy, short sided and dangerous as Anders. Don't even kid yourself, she was just as bad. Sorry you refuse to see it, but that's the truth.
Meredith and Anders: Both shone with conviction, both saw that they were in the right and damn anyone else that thinks otherwise. I prefer Anders as a person, but to think either of them was on higher moral ground than the other is preposterous. If you say that Meredith's conviction wasn't a fallacy, you must say that about Anders. Meredith thought she was trying to protect the people of Kirkwall (what a joke) and Anders thought he knew what was best for the mages (thanks for speaking for my pro-Circle Warden there, Anders.)
Both of their actions and blindness of others got a lot of people hurt and killed. You cannot fault either of them for the strength of their beliefs, but one should fault them for their actions.
The only reason I didn't kill Anders my first playthrough was because he was my only mage specced for healing
I kept Anders so that he could help to save some of the lives that he had condemned through provoking Meredith into an Annulment.
Nonetheless, she did authorize an Annulment that lead to many deaths on both sides, not that I am justifying the actions of Anders by any stretch of the imagination.
Elu...You know what i will say, this has been covered before.
._.
I believe that circle should have been anulled YEARS before.
Likewise, Steelcan, likewise.
I admit, I don't entirely like that quote, because it seems to be emphasizing the wrong thing. When one group of your friends starts trying to massacre the other... that's when the line in the sand matters.
Do tell me when Anders kills more than, like, four people at a time.
I will regret his but:
In DAO, the mages were slaughtering the templars. And Varric thankfully views the people as individuals not nameless orders.
I am pretty certain a chantry holds more than 4 people in it Xil. I don't know the number, but it would be more than 4 considering a building that size probably contains living quarters.
I never bring Anders with me because the game seems to interpret letting him help you defend the mages (which most of my Hawke's did) as approval of his actions. That's one of the things that none of my PC's ever considered doing.
I found telling him to leave on my second Hawke to be actually more satisfying than killing him though. It's the only time I feel I get to really spit my contempt in his face, so to speak.
Even in Tevinter until recently the mages were kept under templar control and couldn't hold offices, that has obviously changed.
Do we know for sure that was the case? Yes, it is stated that those who refused to convert to the new faith were struck down, but I don't think it has ever been said that the survivors were barred from holding office. Hessarian himself remained Archon, and even picked up the shiny new title of Head of the Chantry.
Truly, a man of political genius.
I kept Anders so that he could help to save some of the lives that he had condemned through provoking Meredith into an Annulment.
My Champion agreed with Merrill about Anders being able to play a role in helping stop the massacre. Anders does say that he believed that my apostate Hawke was the leader who the mages have waited centuries for, which was nice.
I wonder if Inquisition will address the fallout of that decision, like with Sebastian's return to Starkhaven. Perhaps the Prince will petition the Inquisitor for aid in overthrowing the coup that lead to his family's demise, or maybe the player will be faced with a decision between siding with one of the two factions?
I will regret his but:
In DAO, the mages were slaughtering the templars. And Varric thankfully views the people as individuals not nameless orders.
I am pretty certain a chantry holds more than 4 people in it Xil. I don't know the number, but it would be more than 4 considering a building that size probably contains living quarters.
DAO had abominations doing most of it. I regret that the blood mages still there attacked me; I have no real problem with their bid for independence, just their methods, and I'd be willing to support them over the templars if it came to it.
Whether they're individuals or not doesn't really matter when they're military aggressors.
As for the Chantry, all we have is speculation.
The only reason I didn't kill Anders my first playthrough was because he was my only mage specced for healing
First time through, I felt it was my responsibility as Champion of Kirkwall to mete out some justice to Justice. You don't just poke a hole in my city and expect to get away with it.
Second time through, I was trying different things, and I spared Anders. The wail of anguish from Sebastian was such sweet music to my ears that I have really had a hard time killing Anders in any subsequent play-through. The idea of Sebastian trying to bring holy war to Kirkwall is so pathetically amusing that I just can't help myself.
I will regret his but:
In DAO, the mages were slaughtering the templars. And Varric thankfully views the people as individuals not nameless orders.
I am pretty certain a chantry holds more than 4 people in it Xil. I don't know the number, but it would be more than 4 considering a building that size probably contains living quarters.
Not to mention game limitations in showing people in cutscenes or cities
Crawling out of the grave...I take it you're referring to the short story?
Oh and so Meredith seeing blood magic everywhere, including in her own Templars that disagreed with her in the end, is oh so much better.
Please, you're defending someone just as crazy, short sided and dangerous as Anders. Don't even kid yourself, she was just as bad. Sorry you refuse to see it, but that's the truth.
Meredith and Anders: Both shone with conviction, both saw that they were in the right and damn anyone else that thinks otherwise. I prefer Anders as a person, but to think either of them was on higher moral ground than the other is preposterous. If you say that Meredith's conviction wasn't a fallacy, you must say that about Anders. Meredith thought she was trying to protect the people of Kirkwall (what a joke) and Anders thought he knew what was best for the mages (thanks for speaking for my pro-Circle Warden there, Anders.)
Both of their actions and blindness of others got a lot of people hurt and killed. You cannot fault either of them for the strength of their beliefs, but one should fault them for their actions.
So you compare Meredith to Anders because in her final moment she succumbed to the effects of red Lyrium?
Does that compare to being an abomination? Some Pro Mages have said as much, Thus would she truly be at fault then? My point is this, If you leave out the prior thirty or so minutes to the conclusion of the game, Meredith ultimately has done little beyond uncovering corruption within the Circle.
She refused the Tranquil solution (Not exactly a mistake but there is an argument for its implementation) She didn't kill those corrupt Starkhaven Mages, She can even acknowledge she may be biased in this. And note this is all within Act 3 where she had the idol, My point is this you are comparing a Woman who kept a city secure from monsters like Anders, To Anders a monster who viewed everything besides his cause as secondary. She obviously had higher moral ground then Anders, And considering HE prompted her to annul the circle it can hardly be pinned on her.
I acknowledge her failings, of which there are a few, but how many of those can be tied back to the idol? She doesn't make an appearance until the conclusion of act two after all, and in the following act she is in possession of the idol. And considering the city was functioning more or less the first two acts, Clearly she was doing something right.
Do we know for sure that was the case? Yes, it is stated that those who refused to convert to the new faith were struck down, but I don't think it has ever been said that the survivors were barred from holding office. Hessarian himself remained Archon, and even picked up the shiny new title of Head of the Chantry.
Truly, a man of political genius.
WoT
"Under Hessarians dual leadership as archon and head of the chantry, soporati were admitted to the clergy of a Tevinter religion for the first time in Imperium history. For a hundred years, the highest ranking clerics in the Imperium were non-mages and actually held seats in the Magisterium."
So I guess not entirely correct, but that was what I was going off of.
@Z Sure, she was more moderate. They both were, before the idol showed up.
I don't think she had any higher ground in the end. And she's an adult, remember? One person pushed to do the RoA after she went mad and she just went with it? That's what a child does, or someone that's gone mad. Yes, she was being childish by calling the RoA, and in the wrong too.
I'm sorry, but that sounds like something my pre-school nephews would have as an excuse, "But Mom, he made me do it!"
Also, Anders had mentioned in earlier acts that Meredith wasn't that bad. Neither was he, remember? He was healing the sick for free, running a mage underground and trying to spread the word about some of the treatment of mages in the Gallows. It was confirmed by at least one member of the Gallows Circle that physical and sexual abuse had been going on.
You say that Meredith's deteriorating condition was due to the idol. Anders was due to Justice. Both of them were having their sanity slip due to magical influence. You're trying to tell me there is a difference between the two. There really isn't, not by the end of the game.
I hope I've made it clear that I think both of them had a point and both of them did a very bad job of conveying that point. That's why I'm in the middle. To me, the decline of both Meredith and Anders is comparable, and shows why such extreme examples of Templars and Mages have hurt the narrative.
2. Where is that? Most of all the world is Andrastian. Until recently before the split there was one dominant andrastian faith. Even in Tevinter until recently the mages were kept under templar control and couldn't hold offices, that has obviously changed. With the world as it was when the original inquisition came into being that became the templars, I figure most countries just wanted someone to get the "mage problem" under control. I don't think they had to be forced.
1.
No, the black divine ruled from the start( after Andrastes first exalted march).
2.
Of course, everybody would agree to foreign soldiers being stationed in his country, enslaving thousands of gifted citizens who are actually able to contribute to society. Especially the Rivaini(Seers), Dalish(Keepers), Ferelden(Chasind mages), oh wait. The Elves are now slaves as well, because they had a different religion, the Rivaini where forced to accept the chantry twice (after the Qun and because of their Seers), and Ferelden used to be conquered by Orlais and will hate Orlais forever. You see, there are a lot of people, who are forced to accept the chantry and her infamous templars. The fourth example would be Tevinter, but like I said, I don´t like slavers.
@Z Sure, she was more moderate. They both were, before the idol showed up.
I don't think she had any higher ground in the end. And she's an adult, remember? One person pushed to do the RoA after she went mad and she just went with it? That's what a child does, or someone that's gone mad. Yes, she was being childish by calling the RoA, and in the wrong too.
I'm sorry, but that sounds like something my pre-school nephews would have as an excuse, "But Mom, he made me do it!"
Also, Anders had mentioned in earlier acts that Meredith wasn't that bad. Neither was he, remember? He was healing the sick for free, running a mage underground and trying to spread the word about some of the treatment of mages in the Gallows. It was confirmed by at least one member of the Gallows Circle that physical and sexual abuse had been going on.
You say that Meredith's deteriorating condition was due to the idol. Anders was due to Justice. Both of them were having their sanity slip due to magical influence. You're trying to tell me there is a difference between the two. There really isn't, not by the end of the game.
I hope I've made it clear that I think both of them had a point and both of them did a very bad job of conveying that point. That's why I'm in the middle. To me, the decline of both Meredith and Anders is comparable, and shows why such extreme examples of Templars and Mages have hurt the narrative.
Mmm I disagree but then i am of the mind it should have been annulled about six years or so before it was. The Rampant corruption, forbidden magic and other hyperbole i could bother to quote required that circle to die many times over before it finally does. Was the decision a bit rash? I can agree with that but the reasoning isn't wrong either, People would call for vengeance against the murderer of a beloved religious figure. My point is, Why not two birds one stone? Meredith's justification wasn't great.
But the Circle from top to bottom was corrupt, Thus i don't mind it overly. She wasn't in the wrong to Anull the circle, She had legitimate justification to do it given the bad history and behavior from that circle recently, Top it off with the looming PR nightmare of the aftermath of the destruction of the Chantry and well...I can see why Meredith did it.
And confirmed? Second Hand Rumors are confirmation now? Ander's is completely unbiased right? 
I don't buy into the Mage line of kirkwall sorry.
And My point was this, Meredith succumbed to the Lyrium, Anders fell pray to a Demon that convinced him of a lovely idea to plant a bomb and kill people, Meredith ordered a circle Annul, A circle full of corrupt, trained mages...Your honestly not seeing anything different then say, an indirect bloody death via explosion for unarmed priests then annulling a corrupt circle?
I do see a difference, it may not be large to you but it is enough for me.
@ Z
Point to one single instance of Kirkwall's whole circle being corrupt an irredeemable before the madness of Act 3. Just one. If you say Orsino covering Quentin, I can just as easily use Alrik to point out Templars corruption and abuse of power just as well. Give me more than an individual, give me evidence that the whole circle was corrupt and beyond redemption, if you feel it should've been annulled before Hawke even arrived in Kirkwall...which is pretty much the time frame you say it should've been annulled.
I kept Anders so that he could help to save some of the lives that he had condemned through provoking Meredith into an Annulment.
@ Z
Point to one single instance of Kirkwall's whole circle being corrupt an irredeemable before the madness of Act 3. Just one. If you say Orsino covering Quentin, I can just as easily use Alrik to point out Templars corruption and abuse of power just as well. Give me more than an individual, give me evidence that the whole circle was corrupt and beyond redemption, if you feel it should've been annulled before Hawke even arrived in Kirkwall...which is pretty much the time frame you say it should've been annulled.
Seconded. For ever act of abuse of power by a mage, there is one just as heinous by a Templar.
@Z: Anders is as unbiased as Meredith was. You can spin it until you're blue in the face: By the end, magic had taken what was once two compassionate and reasonable people and turned them into fanatics that were both worthy of death. I've read your posts, but how you can say with a straight face that Meredith was better than Anders in anyway escapes me.
I feel the same about those that blindly defend all of Anders' actions while condemning Meredith's. Both of them were being murderous monstrous children at the end, in the name of what they thought was right. Of course I couldn't stand Meredith by Act 3, not too many players could, but Anders doesn't get a pass either for the same reasons. Being a crazed fanatic is ultimately self serving and tends to get innocent people killed.
Meredith was a pretty good Knight Commander until after she got the idol. I thought Anders was a pretty good guy until Justice's influence grew. And by the end, they both rather sucked and had to be put down. It wasn't a happy task for my Templar Hawke to kill Meredith, nor for my Mage Hawke to kill Anders.
I'll be the first to say that maybe if the game had had us talk to Meredith before the end of Act 2, get to know her, that I might feel differently. Same with Orisno: I don't have that many strong feelings about him because I barely knew him before Act 3.
The only times I keep Anders alive is when I allow him to help Annul the Circle.
Damn, that's pretty cold.
I thought we all agreed Da2 was a trash heap for both sides and shouldn't be used in discussions. Or did I imagine that?
I thought we all agreed Da2 was a trash heap for both sides and shouldn't be used in discussions. Or did I imagine that?
I've been saying that
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