8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

I only take a Fiona that is tempered by Aequitarians as well as Libertarians. Her aggressiveness has not really endeared her character to me.

[EmissaryofLies]

I hope she looks like Athenril, I likes Athenril.

[flchans]

For me the conflict presentation was even, if not to say pro-templar. See, for the whole game we have to deal with lots of blood mages, lots of demons and shades, they inhabit every cellar, every mansion, everyone seems using them (maybe something about the game design, but still).

 

The more we play, the more we understand the magic is the power that corrupts people and makes them use it to ill ends. Merrill used blood magic to uncover the history of her clan, leading to her slaughtering it; and if it wasn't for Marethari Merrill would become one of the most powerful abominations known to the game. Anders embraced the spirit of justice leading only to chaos and injustice. Quentin used magic to return one he loves, murdering and desecrating lots of women in the process. Etc, etc.

 

I totally agree with the Right of Annulment invoked by Meredith, although I'm not sure, whether she could do so on her own (in DA:O Gregoire had to ask Denerim for the Right).

 

1) A Circle was totally corrupt way from the top. Orsino knew of Quentin's necromancy and not only didn't turn him in to the templars, but in the end used his knowledge himself; a disgrace to the very idea of the Circle. Moreover, every Circle mage seems to be like "Why do I have to answer for what others did?" and when we choose to kill them - they become abominations and let the demons to the world; Therefore you can assume all of them dealt with the demons to get blood magic, so they are just hiding behind the idea of bad templars being much worse themselves.

 

2) Right of Annulment was rather not a "One mage blew up the Chantry, let's destroy the Circle" decision. It was based upon:

 

- Meredith's (as de-facto city ruler) responsibility for the death of Grand Cleric and Chantry's destruction; someone had to be made responsible. A rather political move to keep peace.

 

- Growing tensions between mages and templars, with more and more blood mages it was obvious that something went wrong with the Circle; As Orsino turned a bling eye towards Quentin, we can easily suggest there were much more similar cases.

 

- Unrest in the Order, with templars massively joining the rebel mages, helping them escape, participating in their ill schemes; Meredith had to contain the situation and keep control of the Order.

 

However although I find that Annulment necessary, I do not approve of too harsh decisions in general, like killing every apostate, or introducing a "Tranquil Solution". The Order has to stick to its idea - to oversee and guide magic users and protect them from themselves.

 

If in DA:O we were more inclined to help Fereldan Circle, full of dedicated and righteous mages (Wynne, Irwing), in DA 2 we see totally another Circle, totally deserving to be destroyed. IMO, such difference is very good to the series as we're allowed to see various points of view on the conflict.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I hope she looks like Athenril, I likes Athenril.

We have two images of her from Heroes of Dragon Age:

 

 

[Divine Justinia V]

We have two images of her from Heroes of Dragon Age:

 

 

 

I've had a crush on her since The Calling.

[AresKeith]

I rather liked Fiona, and her effort to help her people: “I came to the Circle from the Grey Wardens because I saw something had to be done. In the Wardens, we learn to watch for our moment and seize it - and that moment is now.” Interestingly, Fiona is doing precisely what Wynne encourages the mage protagonist to do: return to the Circle after serving as a Warden, to help change the Circle for the better.

 

Ummm Wynne didn't want war to happen

[Jedi Master of Orion]

When my Warden-Commander brought that up in the City of Amaranthine, Wynne said she was arguing against the vote in Cumberland because the Chantry would kill all the mages rather than see them free.

 

And back then even a Chantry hating apostate mage said that rebelling was a recipe for disaster.

[Grieving Natashina]

And back then even a Chantry hating apostate mage said that rebelling was a recipe for disaster.

Yeah, then merged with a spirit and completely forgot he ever said that.   Weird guy, that one.

[dzs Angel]

Doesn´t change the fact that mages did rebell and Gaspard seized this opportunity to claim the throne.

[Master Warder Z_]

Doesn´t change the fact that mages did rebell and Gaspard seized this opportunity to claim the throne.

 

...Gaspard was rebelling before the events of Asunder...

 

[eyezonlyii]

For me the conflict presentation was even, if not to say pro-templar. See, for the whole game we have to deal with lots of blood mages, lots of demons and shades, they inhabit every cellar, every mansion, everyone seems using them (maybe something about the game design, but still).

 

The more we play, the more we understand the magic is the power that corrupts people and makes them use it to ill ends. Merrill used blood magic to uncover the history of her clan, leading to her slaughtering it; and if it wasn't for Marethari Merrill would become one of the most powerful abominations known to the game. Anders embraced the spirit of justice leading only to chaos and injustice. Quentin used magic to return one he loves, murdering and desecrating lots of women in the process. Etc, etc.

 

I totally agree with the Right of Annulment invoked by Meredith, although I'm not sure, whether she could do so on her own (in DA:O Gregoire had to ask Denerim for the Right).

 

1) A Circle was totally corrupt way from the top. Orsino knew of Quentin's necromancy and not only didn't turn him in to the templars, but in the end used his knowledge himself; a disgrace to the very idea of the Circle. Moreover, every Circle mage seems to be like "Why do I have to answer for what others did?" and when we choose to kill them - they become abominations and let the demons to the world; Therefore you can assume all of them dealt with the demons to get blood magic, so they are just hiding behind the idea of bad templars being much worse themselves.

 

2) Right of Annulment was rather not a "One mage blew up the Chantry, let's destroy the Circle" decision. It was based upon:

 

- Meredith's (as de-facto city ruler) responsibility for the death of Grand Cleric and Chantry's destruction; someone had to be made responsible. A rather political move to keep peace.

 

- Growing tensions between mages and templars, with more and more blood mages it was obvious that something went wrong with the Circle; As Orsino turned a bling eye towards Quentin, we can easily suggest there were much more similar cases.

 

- Unrest in the Order, with templars massively joining the rebel mages, helping them escape, participating in their ill schemes; Meredith had to contain the situation and keep control of the Order.

 

However although I find that Annulment necessary, I do not approve of too harsh decisions in general, like killing every apostate, or introducing a "Tranquil Solution". The Order has to stick to its idea - to oversee and guide magic users and protect them from themselves.

 

If in DA:O we were more inclined to help Fereldan Circle, full of dedicated and righteous mages (Wynne, Irwing), in DA 2 we see totally another Circle, totally deserving to be destroyed. IMO, such difference is very good to the series as we're allowed to see various points of view on the conflict.

 

The bolded is the most problematic; she had Anders right there. I know he was "left to the Champion" for gameplay reasons, but plot wise...he should have been enough. Like Orsino said "The Circle isn't responsible for this."

 

The second point about the mage/templar rebellion: That's when she should have checked herself (but conveniently had a crazy button). Because, if your people are willing to risk their jobs, name and more than likely their lives to go against your direct orders, or the way your administration is run, then you have a problem that is more than just a few disgruntled employees.

 

Lastly, for your first point, I agree that Orsino was stupid for hiding the evidence, but at the same time, we know that if he had come forward, the repercussions would have been astronomical. In fact, I'm willing to believe that the RoA would have come right then and there. 

[dzs Angel]

 

 

 

...Gaspard was rebelling before the events of Asunder...

 

Once " The masked Empire " is released, we will at least have a clue what to exspect from DA:I.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I honestly don't really understand Orisino's supposed reason for hiding Quentin. What would exposing him to Meredith reveal? That there are crazy blood mages loose, which can have horrifying results? She already knows that. Meredith did eventually learn about him anyway. It seemed like he was mostly hiding him to cover up his own involvement.

[Master Warder Z_]

I honestly don't really understand Orisino's supposed reason for hiding Quentin. What would exposing him to Meredith reveal? That there are crazy blood mages loose with which can have horrifying results? She already knows that. Meredith did eventually learn about him anyway. It seemed like he was mostly hiding him to cover up his own involvement.

 

He did provide a madman with research materials...He aided a blood mage into research that is best left rotting in a forgotten Thaig at the end of the Deeproads.

 

 There is no justification for that, He committed a crime in the eyes of the circle and templars both.

[Steelcan]

I honestly don't really understand Orisino's supposed reason for hiding Quentin. What would exposing him to Meredith reveal? That there are crazy blood mages loose with which can have horrifying results? She already knows that. Meredith did eventually learn about him anyway. It seemed like he was mostly hiding him to cover up his own involvement.

 

That's because he was

[EmissaryofLies]

Because Meredith is perfectly fair and willing to listen to reason. She has never acted brashly or flagrantly ignored/neglected or permitted misconduct as it pertains to mages. She definitely hadn't already sent for the right of annulment and was for certain not dying to pin something on Orsino for the entirety of Act III.

 

 

Nah, if I were Orsino I would come running to Meredith with evidence of a blood mage.

[Dean_the_Young]

I think the one who needs to provide specifics here is you.

 

Gladly, if you'll return the courtesy.

 

 

What specific threats justify, in your mind, segregating mages away from the general population,

 

 

The mind-controlling potential of blood magic to dominate centers of power and hide crimes, as well as the threat that an abomination can pose in an area without rapid military response. Even without the point that magic is a significant competitive advantage to gradually raise and consolidate power into a mage-class, the first is a radically unbalanced difficulty to dealing with mages as equals politically or bringing criminals to justice, while the second represents a reoccurring but avoidable loss of life at relatively unpredictable times for unavoidable reasons of stress.

 

Mundane society is ill equipped to act evenly with factors that can easily overcome and dominate the checks and balances that would normally restrain malefactors, while unnecessary (and even unintentional and non-malevolent) local disasters are a basis for removing the potential cause of such disasters.

 

Mundane society also has a well established history that these fears are real and can and do happen. The fact that these fears are based in reality (mages do have disproportionate power, often rise into the upper stratas of society, and can fall into involuntary but highly destructive insanity) gives them credence, and the fact that they are avoidable is a legitimate (if not unlimited) basis for rejecting integration and accepting these costs.

 

 

locked away on penalty of death in a Templar tower of internment?

I'm ambivalent on the penalty of death for the same reason I am ambivalent about it in any other context in Thedas, so that's a concession I'd actually be willing to give mages as part of reforms/compromises. With caveats, of course (abominations, insurrectionists), but there are alternative systems that could be used.

 

 

I do believe that separation needs to be uniformly enforced to be effective, however, and a voluntary compliance system is doomed to fail almost from the start. To this I point to just about any participative system ever, from taxation and the draft to even seemingly purely benevolent and minimal-cost efforts like vaccination drives, organ donors, blood drives, and so on. Voluntary participation is sporatic participation, especially when restrictive.

 

When compliance needs to be as widespread and uniform as possible, especially for a proactive system that seeks to prevent/contain outbreaks rather than react to them after the costs arise where they will, voluntary participation or 'weekly checkups' won't suffice.

 

 

I am even open to mages earning a privelage to settle outside the tower... though I doubt my criteria for 'earn' would match yours to any close degree.

 

 

 

Please also indicate for each threat whether it is the magnitude of the threat or the nature of the specific harm threatened which provides this justification.

 

 

I'll break this into three points: mind control, a mage class of elites, and abominations.

 

Mind control, which has no effective countermeasures, is a enormous threat to political freedoms and stability of actors. Being both virtually unblockable and undetectable, the threat of a blood mage controlling elites is a plausible and real concern. It is also a stategy with extremely high appeal in terms of benefit for the perpetrator, and potentially massive costs for the organizations and people being controlled. This is a justification for restricting the presence and opportunities of mages to move in elite circles and gain control: in effect, the political disenfranchisement and separation of most mages from the halls of power.

 

The only mages that should be trusted by strangers would be the few that are vetted and have earned trust, are openly identified, and carefully watched. IE, the court wizard, rather than allowing mages to be servants or staff and move freely amongst the ministries. Restricting the ability of mages to participate in politics is a reasonable (from a security perspective) reflection of the ability of mages to dictate and literally control politics and politicians.

 

 

A mage elite is a less catastrophic concern even if they weren't the governors, but a real one. Even without mind-control, magic is a powerful competitive advantage, and systemically over time would see mages rise in power above others. Not all mages would be a part of this class (a lack of interest, for example), but an elite class is always hard to bring to heel once entrenched. The mages would have more power than most to resist such challenges to their interests and promote their own, as well as a general basis to sympathize and support each other's shared interests against mundanes, even without touching on the mind control. If, once, the mage class gets too powerful to be restrained against its own consent, then everyone else will only be as safe as the mage collective is inclined- a reliance on the benevolence of a minority that already has an extremely mixed history, one that often depends on either a perceived greater threat (Humans to the Dalish), or implicit acceptance of costs (Rivian).

 

The issue here is that if mages are integrated into a society in which advancement is based on competitive advantage, they will almost inevitably rise. Integration must be prevented to prevent such a rise... but integration will only be prevented by three ways. You could kill them, you could force them in a social position no amount of ability could escape from (the Qunari caste system), or your could isolate the societies and allow the Mages autonomy within their own, separate, society.

 

Of these, I find separation the best solution short of integration. And, honestly, with research and a security state to protect the elite I could even accept the existence of a mage elite and tolerate those costs of integration, except-

 

 

 

Abominations are real, they are dangerous, and they are triggered by the unavoidable issue of stress. And, to make matters worse, they are semi-regular: how much so is unclear for a lack of data, but it is almost certainly multiple incidents a decade, if not multiple times a year. Abominations are reliably unstable and almost uniformly hostile- the nature of the Rivian witches is worth studying, but they are not the norm. Abominations are also reliably deadly: maybe not to the special snowflake of a player character, but the lore well establishes that abominations can require squads of Templars, and cause damage comparable to chemical or biological weapons.

 

Abominations require a military response, which takes time and proximity to limit damage. They can kill dozens or even hundreds before they are overwhelmed, can linger for centuries or even millennium unless removed, and can even force the creation of more. That's not an existential threat to a civilization (though the highest tiers might be), but it is a catastrophic threat to a settlements, tribes, and what have you. And there's nothing in the lore to suggest it's preventable short of tranquility: some civilizations might not care about the occasional costs, but none are described as immune. Even the Dalish accept some tribes disappearing.

 

Getting rid of the cause of the hour doesn't resolve this threat, because the cause of the hour isn't the root source of abominations: stressed people are, and stress will occur regardless of how much or how little social integration there is. Extremely sane and moral people can fall prey to very bad days, weeks, and life events, and there is no reliable way to prevent it. Strong emotions, strong desires, and strong fears are all that are needed- even malevolent intent isn't a necessity for a malevolent entity to come into being.  Abominations aren't an existential threat on a grand scale (probably- we don't know about the strongest), but they are very much a risk on a local scale.

 

It's a risk, not a guarantee. But it's not a necessity risk either- it is a preventable risk factor (by removing the local mage from an area), and it is not a risk I feel local societies should be forced to endure or accept if they don't want to. Maybe some will- I have my doubts that the Rivian rural people have much say in the manner about the status of Seers, but whatever. Cost tolerance can be conditioned through acceptance, such as popular legitimacy (Seers or Shaman), or it can be forced upon people (Tevinter, where the mageocracy puts its own interests above the concerns of the mundanes). But I do not feel it should be required or forced onto societies, and Andrastian society has very much chosen not to accept that level of risk. Shifting and minimizing the costs, away from unprepared areas populated by unprepared people and to centers where the people most able to stop an abomination as soon as possible, strikes me as a morally sound premise in its own right. A greater good premise that places collective wellbeing over individual rights, but a morally sound premise all the same. It's a different sort of morality than hyperindividualism, but no less real.

 

Considering that an abomination can wipe out a settlement, I think it is fair that a area reject having potential abominations in their area. I'd no more expect them to tolerate a potential abomination than I would them tolerate a chemical weapon with an armed trigger mechanism. Until someone figures out how to make mages incapable of going abomination, that includes rejecting mages from being in a locality.

 

 

 

 

So, in round up-

 

I believe the extreme utility and effectiveness of blood magic mind control justifies keeping all but the most trusted and watched mages from the actors of power. Even though this politically marginalizes disenfranchises mages by strictly limiting their participating in politics.

I believe the plausibility of a class of mage elites rising above the influence of the rest justifies opposing integration that would permit such a rise. Even though this socially segregates mages from broader society.

I believe the risk of an abomination justifies a people objecting to allow mages in a populated area. Even though this would physically isolate mages and restrict their freedom of movement.

 

 

Disenfranchisement. Segregation. No freedom of movement. These are not conclusions friendly to western liberalism... but then western liberalism doesn't have to deal with the factors leading to these conclusions. If it did, there probably wouldn't be a western liberalism as we know it. It certainly doesn't express itself when similar conditions are present: just consider how we handle quarantines and WMDs and other risks that can present three-digit casualties on short notice.

 

Individually, these factors wouldn't alone justify the Circle system. Together, however, the Circle System's effects allow these goals to be met, while also allowing mages freedoms in the areas left outside of these.

 

 

Of course, there's also the fact that changing these underlying premise would justify significant changes to Mage roles in relation to society, including an eventual resolution of the Circle system..

 

Find a way to prevent, or at least identify, mind control at play? That would justify allowing significantly more involvement in politics.

 

Find a way to prevent abominations in the first place? Then expecting populated areas to tolerate the mage is far more reasonable.

 

Find a way to mitigate/divide a mage class from rising above the rest? The hardest... but also the individually weakest in justifying the Circle system. Plus, the rise of ideologies and the destruction of a pan-mage identity culture can help here.

 

 

If the disproportionate risk and danger of mages can be brought down, then things would be quite justified in changing because the threats have changed.

 

 

 

 

What's important to realize is that I am not an advocate of the Circle system staying as it is, now and forever. I'm not even an advocate of keeping them the same now. I am open to reforms: not to discarding the premise that lead to the Circle system in the first place, but in the way and manner that the Circle system is handled.

 

What does that mean in practice?

 

Well, I'm fine with ending the totality of Annullment- scanning for demons is an unproven but promising avenue, and there are good old-fashioned police state ways to watch and contain suspected maleficars and instigators.

 

I can be convinced to give up tranquility- in reality, I think it favors the mages more than than most of their supporters believe. But if mages were willing to live with people who aren't trusted to pass the Harrowing, I'd be willing to let them accept that cost. There are other punishments that can work for extreme/repeat criminals.

 

I think bringing families into the Circles would be a beneficial change, a way to help encourage and stabilize mental health amongst the mages. Mind you, when I say 'bringing families into the Circles' I mean just that- there are real security concerns for allowing sustained outside contacts and ties in a cloister environment- but I do think family and marriage between mages and just about anyone but the Templars should be respected (and even then, decomission the Templar and work it).

 

I completely agree that the Circles should be moved to deliberately designed facilities rather than re-purposed prisons. Courtyards, open-air and natural lighting, running water- designed to put the mind at ease and reverse claustrophobia.

 

Increased oversight for the Templars, and avenues for mages to pursue complaints. The Chantry (and Seekers) should be less hands off and defferential to the Templars, especially when accusations of abuse come up.

 

A defined (if difficult) retirement outside the Circle option. Not a guarantee or a promise, but a pre-known way to retire outside of the Circles if you follow certain mage career paths and earn merits/trust with extensive good behavior. A productive career in magical or mundane research, as opposed to saving the day as is currently the case, being enough to allow settlement into a (willing) community with a suitably long-distance supervision.

 

I do think Mages should have a right to request a change of Circles, in case they end up in a bad one/one they don't fit well in, providing a sense of mobility.

 

I would also be tentatively willing to allow a Mage to leave the Andrastian sphere entirely for another system, if sufficient safeguards and assurances could be given, and an understanding that the mage can never return: phylacteries would be maintained to track and watch for if such mages crossed the borders again. Tribal societies probably wouldn't be able to guarantee them, but I could see allowing a mage to leave the Circle for the Wardens, Dwarves, certain Dalish tribes, the Qunari, and possibly even Tevinter (if the other group would accept them). I doubt many Circle mages would want to, mind you, considering compromises expected by the other parties, but depending on the partner I could be convinced to allow such a escape from the system.

 

 

 

I'd even suggest making Templars share some of the costs and difficulties of the mages, on a symbolic level to encourage empathy (if not sympathy) between the groups. Templars having phylacteries made of them, serving for life and never being able to leave the order, and so on.

 

I'm not, let's be clear, suggesting addicting the mages to Lyrium.

 

 

 

 

Mind you, I'd also propose changes and reforms the mages not appreciate nearly as much. The Templars run a rather amatuerish security state.

[Dean_the_Young]

Keep up the good work

 

1.

 

Alistair is the embodiement of a true Paragorn. Of course he would do everything to spare Conner of his fate. Even if he couldn´t, he would at least try.

 

This presupposes that Alistair thinks the Circle life in a sane circle is a terrible fate. Where does Alistair reflect this?

 

 

 

 

2.

 

I never said I can´t think of any examples where it happened. I said the Grey Wardens couldn´t do it. They do anything to stop the blight. They would enlist every magister of Tevinter, if they had to. They need mages, warriors and rogues as strong as possible. They already use boodmagic. Once they have taken over Anderfels, they will do anything to increase their military strength in order to fight the darkspawn. A circle system, where the chantry controls their most powerful (possible) recruits, wouldn´t be in their best interests. And they don´t have any prejudices against mages and bloodmagic.

 

 

 

'Not in their best interests' is not the same as 'couldn't', you know.

 

Moreover, you are assuming the Grey Warden will view the mages the way you do. I see no reason why they should: the Wardens are a small elite force, not a mass-recruitment draftee army always claiming more. You could credibly claim that the Wardens would want to recruit more strong mages, but what about weak mages? Those they don't think could make the cut, or are succeptible? There would still be a reason to keep the Circle then, to train up new mages and keep the undesirable ones... even if we didn't consider the other costs of trying to abandon the Circle system.

[Master Warder Z_]

Because Meredith is perfectly fair and willing to listen to reason. She has never acted brashly or flagrantly ignored/neglected or permitted misconduct as it pertains to mages. She definitely hadn't already sent for the right of annulment and was for certain not dying to pin something on Orsino for the entirety of Act III.

 

 

Nah, if I were Orsino I would come running to Meredith with evidence of a blood mage.

 

This was before she had the Idol you know.

 

And given how the mage in question was traipsing about murdering folk you figure Orsino would at least have the conscience to own up.

 

His Cowardice killed those women as much as Quentin.

[TK514]

Also, I'm very curious as to why everyone hates Fiona and blames her when it was Adrian whom literally forced the entire thing and is was more into radicalism than her?

I would probably mind Fiona less if she were five different characters. As it stands, she's almost a parody, and probably an authors pet. She's an elf, a slave that killed her master and allowed to flee, a super mage, a Grey Warden, then joined the Circle just because and became the Mage head of the entire Circle System.

Got a king to fall in love with her through the power of being passive-aggressive because he was totally hot nobility and nobles totally suck, then had his son who may have been a fan favorite character and king himself. Killed a brood mother, and was hailed by Kings and Grey Wardens as the most awesome person who ever awesomed and they could never have accomplished anything without her. Beat the Architect before it was cool. Got cured of the The Taint. Was good friends with Alistair's/the Hero of Ferelden's wise mentor before he was a wise mentor. Got away with calling for a vote to abolish the circles not once but twice, and has pretty much suffered zero negative consequences for any of it outside a tragic origin story.

Frankly, there's enough crap there for two or three full-blown PCs, forget regular characters. If the City Elf Hero of Ferelden got double credit for everything AND a New Game+ they still wouldn't be as awesome and loved by everyone as Fiona.

So, in conclusion, I think she's a pretty godawful character.

[EmissaryofLies]

This was before she had the Idol you know.

 

And given how the mage in question was traipsing about murdering folk you figure Orsino would at least have the conscience to own up.

 

His Cowardice killed those women as much as Quentin.

I am not certain of that, but for the purposes of this discourse I will grant it.

 

The PC hears about Meredith's harsh ways within a minute of stepping off of the boat in Act I. You hear people screaming from the gallows. You have mages in Act II scared to even talk to the PC for fear of receiving beatings. You have illegally tranquiled mages popping up in the gallows where Meredith dwells. You have Meredith threaten a mage PC during the Qunari invasion if he or she dares defy her commands upon first meeting her. Meredith is by all means completely unreasonable when it comes to mages. You can argue that had Orsino brought forth the evidence of Quinten that she would have been reasonable, I completely disagree, but I ask you.

 

What about Meredith's personality or her modus operandi gives you the impression that this is the kind of person who can take shades of grey seriously when it comes to mages?

[Divine Justinia V]

I would probably mind Fiona less if she were five different characters. As it stands, she's almost a parody, and probably an authors pet. She's an elf, a slave that killed her master and allowed to flee, a super mage, a Grey Warden, then joined the Circle just because and became the Mage head of the entire Circle System.

Got a king to fall in love with her through the power of being passive-aggressive because he was totally hot nobility and nobles totally suck, then had his son who may have been a fan favorite character and king himself. Killed a brood mother, and was hailed by Kings and Grey Wardens as the most awesome person who ever awesomed and they could never have accomplished anything without her. Beat the Architect before it was cool. Got cured of the The Taint. Was good friends with Alistair's/the Hero of Ferelden's wise mentor before he was a wise mentor. Got away with calling for a vote to abolish the circles not once but twice, and has pretty much suffered zero negative consequences for any of it outside a tragic origin story.

Frankly, there's enough crap there for two or three full-blown PCs, forget regular characters. If the City Elf Hero of Ferelden got double credit for everything AND a New Game+ they still wouldn't be as awesome and loved by everyone as Fiona.

So, in conclusion, I think she's a pretty godawful character.

 

I can understand your contempt but I still don't get why anyone blames her for what happened.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

But how is knowing about Quentin revealing any fundamentally new information to her? When she learned about Quentin from the Champion she didn't decide to annul mages there and then. All Orsino ended up doing was shirking his duty, negligently allowing innocents to be gruesomely killed and making Meredith's paranoia partially right.

[Dean_the_Young]

I would probably mind Fiona less if she were five different characters. As it stands, she's almost a parody, and probably an authors pet. She's an elf, a slave that killed her master and allowed to flee, a super mage, a Grey Warden, then joined the Circle just because and became the Mage head of the entire Circle System.

Got a king to fall in love with her through the power of being passive-aggressive because he was totally hot nobility and nobles totally suck, then had his son who may have been a fan favorite character and king himself. Killed a brood mother, and was hailed by Kings and Grey Wardens as the most awesome person who ever awesomed and they could never have accomplished anything without her. Beat the Architect before it was cool. Got cured of the The Taint. Was good friends with Alistair's/the Hero of Ferelden's wise mentor before he was a wise mentor. Got away with calling for a vote to abolish the circles not once but twice, and has pretty much suffered zero negative consequences for any of it outside a tragic origin story.

Frankly, there's enough crap there for two or three full-blown PCs, forget regular characters. If the City Elf Hero of Ferelden got double credit for everything AND a New Game+ they still wouldn't be as awesome and loved by everyone as Fiona.

So, in conclusion, I think she's a pretty godawful character.

 

 

I don't know how much of that could be called objective, but it was damn well said. I laughed.

[renfrees]

If you're gonna suggest that the thing speaks for itself, then I have to say it's a really, really bad analogy. A troop of heroic warriors from a fantasy setting, like Grey Wardens, Ash Warriors, the Legion of the Dead, or the Templars are more than a match for any single mage in most circumstances, and no single mage has ever come near the destructive potential of a nuclear weapon.

 

Fail analogy is fail.

Nope, you didn't get it at all.

 

And holy ****, this thread moves too fast.