8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Master Warder Z_]

What about Meredith's personality or her modus operandi gives you the impression that this is the kind of person who can take shades of grey seriously when it comes to mages?

 

Oh wait.

 

We were debating whether or not he would be punished?

 

He should be punished! Meredith would be completely justified in punishing him for his connection to the suspect in question given their relationship.

 

I feel confused now.

 

Edit: Or was this if Meredith would some how pull a scheme out of nowhere to blame the entire circle for the corruption of the first enchanter?

 

Meredith doesn't forge evidence to hangs mages for crimes, She lets their own wickedness do it for them.

[dzs Angel]

Because Meredith is perfectly fair and willing to listen to reason. She has never acted brashly or flagrantly ignored/neglected or permitted misconduct as it pertains to mages. She definitely hadn't already sent for the right of annulment and was for certain not dying to pin something on Orsino for the entirety of Act III.

 

 

Nah, if I were Orsino I would come running to Meredith with evidence of a blood mage.

Seems like a reasoneable choice(sarcasm) to me

 

This presupposes that Alistair thinks the Circle life in a sane circle is a terrible fate. Where does Alistair reflect this?

 

 

 

'Not in their best interests' is not the same as 'couldn't', you know.

 

Moreover, you are assuming the Grey Warden will view the mages the way you do. I see no reason why they should: the Wardens are a small elite force, not a mass-recruitment draftee army always claiming more. You could credibly claim that the Wardens would want to recruit more strong mages, but what about weak mages? Those they don't think could make the cut, or are succeptible? There would still be a reason to keep the Circle then, to train up new mages and keep the undesirable ones... even if we didn't consider the other costs of trying to abandon the Circle system.

1.

 

You might act as if you don´t know the fact, that Alistair grew up in Arl Eamons castle. As a former templer, he is well aware of the fact, that at some point Connor might be killed or made tranquill. He just wouldn´t take that chance. If Connor would have been at Fereldens circle, like he should have been as a mage(by chantry doctrine), he would have died in the purge. His mother realized him to be a mage befor the purge happened.

 

2.

 

I never said I´m assuming anything regarding the Wardens. Duncan( as the Warden later on in Denerim) clearly states, the Grey Wardens do and use anything to stop a blight and kill all darkspawn, even bloodmagic. That is why they would train every mage to be as powerful as possible, and kill those who are possessed.

 

Edit:

 

BTW: The Grey Wardens consider themselves to be an army, they just don´t have enough recruits

[Master Warder Z_]

I would probably mind Fiona less if she were five different characters. As it stands, she's almost a parody, and probably an authors pet. She's an elf, a slave that killed her master and allowed to flee, a super mage, a Grey Warden, then joined the Circle just because and became the Mage head of the entire Circle System.

Got a king to fall in love with her through the power of being passive-aggressive because he was totally hot nobility and nobles totally suck, then had his son who may have been a fan favorite character and king himself. Killed a brood mother, and was hailed by Kings and Grey Wardens as the most awesome person who ever awesomed and they could never have accomplished anything without her. Beat the Architect before it was cool. Got cured of the The Taint. Was good friends with Alistair's/the Hero of Ferelden's wise mentor before he was a wise mentor. Got away with calling for a vote to abolish the circles not once but twice, and has pretty much suffered zero negative consequences for any of it outside a tragic origin story.

Frankly, there's enough crap there for two or three full-blown PCs, forget regular characters. If the City Elf Hero of Ferelden got double credit for everything AND a New Game+ they still wouldn't be as awesome and loved by everyone as Fiona.

So, in conclusion, I think she's a pretty godawful character.

 

Good sir that was legendary!

[Dean_the_Young]

Seems like a reasoneable choice(sarcasm) to me

 

1.

 

You might act as if you don´t know the fact, that Alistair grew up in Arl Eamons castle. As a former templer, he is well aware of the fact, that at some point Connor might be killed or made tranquill. He just wouldn´t take that chance. If Connor would have been at Fereldens circle, like he should have been as a mage(by chantry doctrine), he would have died in the purge. His mother realized him to be a mage befor the purge happened.

You repeat this claim, but you haven't supported it. I'm asking you to support it. Where does Alistair claim the beliefs or conviction you're claiming he would follow, or reflect the conclusion you claim he would reach?

 

 

 

2.

 

I never said I´m assuming anything regarding the Wardens. Duncan( as the Warden later on in Denerim) clearly states, the Grey Wardens do and use anything to stop a blight and kill all darkspawn, even bloodmagic. That is why they would train every mage to be as powerful as possible, and kill those who are possessed.

 

 

You could just as well say 'mundane' instead of 'mage' and have the same logic. There are reasons that the Wardens don't go around conscripting every mage around, and one of them is a lack of desire- the Wardens haven't expressed an interest in conscripting all mages any more than they have in conscripting every able-bodied person and training them to march into the deep roads.

[EmissaryofLies]

Oh wait.

 

We were debating whether or not he would be punished?

 

He should be punished! Meredith would be completely justified in punishing him for his connection to the suspect in question given their relationship.

 

I feel confused now.

 

Edit: Or was this if Meredith would some how pull a scheme out of nowhere to blame the entire circle for the corruption of the first enchanter?

 

Meredith doesn't forge evidence to hangs mages for crimes, She lets their own wickedness do it for them.

 

Right, because Meredith is known for her mercy and lenience towards mages. Hell she's known for it to the mundanes of kirkwall who are scared of her and spread rumors behind her back.

 

I disagree that he should have been punished if what he was saying was the truth. Not a thing about Orsino until the entire Quinten fiasco led me to believe that he was corrupted or duplicitous. Especially considering he offered to let Meredith search the tower and even help her in the end. But let's disregard that. Orsino's possible involvement with Quinten's amoral experiments condemns him while Meredith's tangible, fully evidenced evil vindicates her.

 

I agree to completely and utterly disagree when it comes to the good Knight Commander of Kirkwall.

[AresKeith]

I can understand your contempt but I still don't get why anyone blames her for what happened.

 

I never really saw anyone blame Fiona, but she probably wanted war the most without doing extreme things like Anders or Adrian

[TK514]

I can understand your contempt but I still don't get why anyone blames her for what happened.

Without her, Adrian is just a murderer who's actions don't matter in the long run. There would have undoubtably have been localized bloodshed, but Fiona's vote is what caused the separation and subsequent war.

And I would say 'contempt' is too strong a word. I just think she's a poorly designed and written character.

[The Elder King]

Without her, Adrian is just a murderer who's actions don't matter in the long run. There would have undoubtably have been localized bloodshed, but Fiona's vote is what caused the separation and subsequent war.
And I would say 'contempt' is too strong a word. I just think she's a poorly designed and written character.

I have the opposite opinion. I don't think that the mage would've separated without Adrian's actions. Wynne would've convinced them to vote against it. Regardless of Fiona's vote, the mages would've fought against the templars that came for Rhys.

[dzs Angel]

You repeat this claim, but you haven't supported it. I'm asking you to support it. Where does Alistair claim the beliefs or conviction you're claiming he would follow, or reflect the conclusion you claim he would reach?

 

 

You could just as well say 'mundane' instead of 'mage' and have the same logic. There are reasons that the Wardens don't go around conscripting every mage around, and one of them is a lack of desire- the Wardens haven't expressed an interest in conscripting all mages any more than they have in conscripting every able-bodied person and training them to march into the deep roads.

1.

 

Alistair talks about his feelings regarding Eamons family, once you enter redcliffe, after you met Teagon and after you freed the castle. He is used to depend on his uncle and he is quite fond of him and his family.

 

2. 

 

No, I can´t because both Wardens state the fact, that the Wardens have no prejudices of any kind. Also the First Warden is clearly interested in what happens if a Grey Warden rules a country(Awakening Add-On). It is no coincidence, that after the events of Awakening(Warden leadership prooves to be successful) they are slowly but surely taking over the Anderfels. Once they rule an entire country they are free to create a Grey Warden they deem neccessary. They don´t enlist as many mages as they could or should because they don´t want to offend Orlais and the chantry. Once they have their own country, they can do whatever they want.

[Divine Justinia V]

I never really saw anyone blame Fiona, but she probably wanted war the most without doing extreme things like Anders or Adrian

 

Go back about 20 or pages and you'll find it.

 

Without her, Adrian is just a murderer who's actions don't matter in the long run. There would have undoubtably have been localized bloodshed, but Fiona's vote is what caused the separation and subsequent war.

And I would say 'contempt' is too strong a word. I just think she's a poorly designed and written character.

 

Idk, I feel like she gets too much blame and not nearly enough goes to Adrian.

[The Elder King]

Are we taking about the same Alistair that, in DC, without the Warden, Annulled the Circle?
Granted, DC isn't canon, and he's shown to open to mage freedom/more rights, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't approve some hard choices in regards of magic and mages.

[Dean_the_Young]

1.

 

Alistair talks about his feelings regarding Eamons family, once you enter redcliffe, after you met Teagon and after you freed the castle. He is used to depend on his uncle and he is quite fond of him and his family.

 

And where does that enter into viewing the Circle as unacceptable?

 

Ignoring, mind you, that he accepts Connor being taken to a Circle.

 

 

2. 

 

No, I can´t because both Wardens state the fact, that the Wardens have no prejudices of any kind. Also the First Warden is clearly interested in what happens if a Grey Warden rules a country(Awakening Add-On). It is no coincidence, that after the events of Awakening(Warden leadership prooves to be successful) they are slowly but surely taking over the Anderfels. Once they rule an entire country they are free to create a Grey Warden they deem neccessary.

 

 

Meh. I'm writing you off at this point- you're buying far more into your own perspective of how the Wardens should see things than considering that there might be other ways to view things. A general lack of supporting arguments or reflections to demonstrate accuracy in how the Wardens have actually expressed perceiving things doesn't help either.

[MisterJB]

. Not a thing about Orsino until the entire Quinten fiasco led me to believe that he was corrupted or duplicitous. Especially considering he offered to let Meredith search the tower and even help her in the end.

Actually, let us focus on that for a second. If what you say is true and Orsino's willingness to allow Meredith to search the Circle after the Annulment was called is evidence of him having nothing to hide, why didn't he do it beforehand?

 

I am not referring to his previous refusal to allow Meredith to search the Circle; one could rationalize he is protecting the right of privacy of his charges; I am talking about the moment where Meredith and Orsino stood in Lowtown with an equal number of forces. Why didn't he offer to allow her to search the Circle in return for the calling off of the Annulment right then and there?

It seems awfully suspicious that he would only allow her to search the Circle after he had been there himself without Templar supervision.

[dzs Angel]

And where does that enter into viewing the Circle as unacceptable?

 

Ignoring, mind you, that he accepts Connor being taken to a Circle.

 

 

Meh. I'm writing you off at this point- you're buying far more into your own perspective of how the Wardens should see things than supporting or reflecting things the Wardens actually have expressed perceiving.

1.

 

The only chance to spare Connor of his fate is to hide him forever, which is impossible, because the circle already knows about Connor, or to get rid of the circle(at least in ferelden). BTW: Connor is Eamons only child, so who is going to be his successor( I know Teagon takes over Redcliffe, but he is still primeminister in a monarchy).

 

2.

 

Now you are confusing your own opinion with the facts at hand.

[Dean_the_Young]

Actually, let us focus on that for a second. If what you say is true and Orsino's willingness to allow Meredith to search the Circle after the Annulment was called is evidence of him having nothing to hide, why didn't he do it beforehand?

 

I am not referring to his previous refusal to allow Meredith to search the Circle; one could rationalize he is protecting the right of privacy of his charges; I am talking about the moment where Meredith and Orsino stood in Lowtown with an equal number of forces. Why didn't he offer to allow her to search the Circle in return for the calling off of the Annulment right then and there?

It seems awfully suspicious that he would only allow her to search the Circle after he had been there himself without Templar supervision.

 

Probably, and I'll be blunt and meta here, because the writers didn't want to distract from their intent of the emotionally charged catalyst on an irrational actor.

 

I doubt 'he wants time to hide his dirty deeds' was part of their writing thoughts at the time. Besides which, if Orisino was competent he would have long since already hidden the incriminating evidence, rather than leave it out in the open.

[EmissaryofLies]

Actually, let us focus on that for a second. If what you say is true and Orsino's willingness to allow Meredith to search the Circle after the Annulment was called is evidence of him having nothing to hide, why didn't he do it beforehand?

 

I am not referring to his previous refusal to allow Meredith to search the Circle; one could rationalize he is protecting the right of privacy of his charges; I am talking about the moment where Meredith and Orsino stood in Lowtown with an equal number of forces. Why didn't he offer to allow her to search the Circle in return for the calling off of the Annulment right then and there?

It seems awfully suspicious that he would only allow her to search the Circle after he had been there himself without Templar supervision.

 

It probably has something to do with Anders blowing up the Chantry and everyone's tempars running high. The first thing he says is that the Circle was not responsible and then he pleads to the champion to not let her do it. He has always operated under the opinion that Meredith was simply looking for a reason to annul the circle, which she was. Did you see that scene? Meredith was not hearing anything. She was dead set determined to wipe out the circle from day one of Act III if her sending the annulment to Val Royeaux is any indication, offering anything in that particular moment was probably the furthest thing from his mind.  He simply wanted to survive.

 

In their encounter in the gallows it seemed that Meredith had regained her composure and he was trying to leverage in that fashion.

 

 

Or of course you can believe that he was hiding evidence.

[AresKeith]

Go back about 20 or pages and you'll find it.

 

 

I saw that, I was more talking in general

[Divine Justinia V]

I saw that, I was more talking in general

 

Oh, well I meant the people in this thread specifically lol.

I don't think anyone outside of here really blames her, at all.

[Grieving Natashina]

I saw that, I was more talking in general

I had some bills come up and I wasn't able to get Asunder last weekend, but there is a lot hate and blame towards Fiona 'round here.   I've only heard it in this thread, though other places do complain about her as a character in general.

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Divine 

[Hellion Rex]

Any progress made in the past 2 hours?

*hopeful*

[Hellion Rex]

I had some bills come up and I wasn't able to get Asunder last weekend, but there is a lot hate and blame towards Fiona 'round here.  

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Divine 

How in the world haven't you been spoiled yet lol

[Grieving Natashina]

Any progress made in the past 2 hours?

*hopeful*

Hun, I have to ask...what do you mean by progress?  What are you expecting to change?

 

They've gone back to talking about Fiona, but the bickering among the actual posters has mellowed some.  

 

 

How in the world haven't you been spoiled yet lol

 

The complaining is all over the place and doesn't leave me room for a lot of context.  I've heard about folks complaining about this or that from Asunder, but the context is poorly explained and there is a ton of emotional bias.  

 

I'm reserving any and all judgement of those characters until I get the book.  My older dog had to go take an emergency trip to the vet a couple of weeks ago (she's fine now, but still in a cone and still on meds for another week) which was sudden and pricey at the end of the month.  I'm grabbing the book this coming weekend though.

[EmissaryofLies]

Any progress made in the past 2 hours?

*hopeful*

 

 

We've reached a common understanding that despite their differences, mages and templars must work together to secure a future for all mankind.

[Hellion Rex]

We've reached a common understanding that despite their differences, mages and templars must work together to secure a future for all mankind.

Hmmm, I'm starting to see why are you called Emissary of Lies.

[Hellion Rex]

The complaining is all over the place and doesn't leave me room for a lot of context.  I've heard about folks complaining about this or that from Asunder, but the context is poorly explained and there is a ton of emotional bias.  

 

I'm reserving any and all judgement of those characters until I get the book.  My older dog had to go take an emergency trip to the vet a couple of weeks ago (she's fine now) which was sudden and pricey at the end of the month.  I'm grabbing the book this coming weekend though.

To be honest, what I have seen is that no matter which "side" you fall under, both agree that the book was pretty well done. You will enjoy it.