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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#501
TheLittleBird

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Ah, you keep telling yourself that. *pats TKS on head* 

...

I'm sorry, that was mean of me. :unsure:


Yeah i was keep telling that to myself when mages were walking as abomnations or insane blood mages ups it turned that meredith was right even about orsino "abomnations galore" as hawke that put perfectly :devil:

I take back my apology.


And I, falling in for Orsino, take back Meredith's sword out of the lava, to use it myself. I think I'll need it.

#502
KaiserShep

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That sentence was starting to sound like some of Isabela's kind of slashfic.

#503
MisterJB

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While it is true that Meredith's justification for the Annulment was pretty, it is also a fact that, in the Templar Ending, nearly every mage you fight is either using blood magic or has non-hostile demons assisting them.
And they most certainly did not learn how to successfully summon and control demons in the timespan it took for Hawke to travel from Lowtown to the Gallows.

#504
Jedi Master of Orion

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Well, that's the thing, they DIDN"T know how to control them. But summoned them anyway. That's why there's several out of control demons in both the city and the gallows.

#505
Hellion Rex

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MisterJB wrote...

While it is true that Meredith's justification for the Annulment was pretty, it is also a fact that, in the Templar Ending, nearly every mage you fight is either using blood magic or has non-hostile demons assisting them.
And they most certainly did not learn how to successfully summon and control demons in the timespan it took for Hawke to travel from Lowtown to the Gallows.

Of the one's that had non-hostile demons assisting, how many could have been enthralled by demons that crossed over physically into the Gallows? By that point, I would figure most wouldn't even need to summon the demons cause the Veil was fractured enough by the magic to allow spirits to cross as they pleased.

#506
Hanako Ikezawa

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MisterJB wrote...

While it is true that Meredith's justification for the Annulment was pretty, it is also a fact that, in the Templar Ending, nearly every mage you fight is either using blood magic or has non-hostile demons assisting them.
And they most certainly did not learn how to successfully summon and control demons in the timespan it took for Hawke to travel from Lowtown to the Gallows.

That's the key phrase though, isn't it? Those you fight.
I highly doubt the entire Gallows was a couple dozens mages. The three you can spare for example did not use blood magic or else the option to spare them wouldn't exist. Then there were the ones fighting Templars in the cutscene, where not a single one used blood magic. Finally I think that in times of desperation, the mages fighting with the demons would hold onto the small hope that those wjo summoned them can control them rather than just let themselves die, so some mages standing next to demons ma have had nothing to do with summoning them. The Wardens in Warden's Keep did the same thing.

#507
Master Warder Z_

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The Hierophant wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

It's not sappose to be use as a punishment.

Oh so sorry i don't know what i was thinking? (luls)

It's supposed to be full on executions for violent and non violent offenders.


<_< I know right?

Death to Salad Eaters and what have you.

#508
TheKomandorShepard

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eluvianix wrote...

Of the one's that had non-hostile demons assisting, how many could have been enthralled by demons that crossed over physically into the Gallows? By that point, I would figure most wouldn't even need to summon the demons cause the Veil was fractured enough by the magic to allow spirits to cross as they pleased.


Doesn't matter many were summoned by mages and we had plenty abomnations and veil wasn't torned and it is not that demon one after another just jump out... so mages caused that in all scenarios...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

That's the key phrase though, isn't it? Those you fight.
I
highly doubt the entire Gallows was a couple dozens mages. The three
you can spare for example did not use blood magic or else the option to
spare them wouldn't exist. Then there were the ones fighting Templars in
the cutscene, where not a single one used blood magic. Finally I think
that in times of desperation, the mages fighting with the demons would
hold onto the small hope that those wjo summoned them can control them
rather than just let themselves die, so some mages standing next to
demons ma have had nothing to do with summoning them. The Wardens in
Warden's Keep did the same thing.


Naive that you didn't saw and they told they aren't blood mages doesn't mean they weren't and possibility of sparing them have nothing to do with it you can still spare alain and some blood mages from grace group or ilduna... abomnations galore thats all... yes throw everything on desperation like always many try last lewer for pro-mages...

#509
MisterJB

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Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well, that's the thing, they DIDN"T know how to control them. But summoned them anyway. That's why there's several out of control demons in both the city and the gallows.

The fact that some demons were non-hostile to Circle Mages imply they were summoned and controlled which also implies there was a faction within the Circle that had studied demonology for some time.


eluvianix wrote...
Of the one's that had non-hostile demons assisting, how many could have been enthralled by demons that crossed over physically into the Gallows? By that point, I would figure most wouldn't even need to summon the demons cause the Veil was fractured enough by the magic to allow spirits to cross as they pleased.

Whenever mages or Templars are being enthralled, it is noticeable. They are lying on their knees in adoration of Desire Demons and the such. Those non-hostile demons are mostly shades and Rage which are not know for seducing mortals.

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
That's the key phrase though, isn't it? Those you fight.
I highly doubt the entire Gallows was a couple dozens mages.

That is true, of course and I am not saying every mage in the Circle was using blood magic; I am just saying that Meredith is not wrong when she says there is much corruption within the Circle.

The three you can spare for example did not use blood magic or else the option to spare them wouldn't exist.

Quentin's apprentice; whose name I really can't recall right now; can be spared early in the game and he was a blood mage who was lying to Hawke's face.
Those three mages could be lying although, for the record, I do spare them.

Finally I think that in times of desperation, the mages fighting with the demons would hold onto the small hope that those wjo summoned them can control them rather than just let themselves die, so some mages standing next to demons ma have had nothing to do with summoning them. The Wardens in Warden's Keep did the same thing.

Sympathizers are really not much of an upgrade. Those three who surrendered had the right idea.

#510
Master Warder Z_

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The Hierophant wrote...

Yeah Lambert was acting on paranoia but the cure for tranquility hinges on possession and abominations are dangerous. Controlled environment or not. Remember the massacre at the fortress? But despite confidentiality Wynne told everyone and their mother about it regardless of it's viability, and now that knowledge is out there for anyone good or bad to take advantage of.

The positive of the research is that illegally or wrongly tranquiled mages can be cured but on the flipside that now applies to violent criminals too, wether it's by accident or is intentional.

Another positive is that tranquility can't be used by abusive Templars to control their victims, but on the flipside it can't be used as a deterrent against potential criminals or blood mages since the consequence reversible.

I have a feeling that everything won't be sunshine and rainbows, but anything can happen in regards to the writers' intentions. Like there being all peace on Thedas with no violence or magical abuse, evah.


Hence why i believe a return to the Circle system is the only sustainable system to put into place save mass executions being repeated every few years, Purges and Ghetto's or simply relocating the majority of mages to settlements/Bastions/Prison Camps to the far ends of Thedas if not beyond it.

o-o Tis an amusing notion however to think of a post war scenario in which Mages assume some semblence of life in society, Though given the DAO Epilogues and occasionally unpredictable situations emerging from seemingly benign choices i have a feeling that quite a few choices possibly done during the course of the war, espeically the end game may drastically impact how Thedosian life goes on.

And if it starts resembling Tveinter 2.0 in a few years or not.

#511
Hanako Ikezawa

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

That's the key phrase though, isn't it? Those you fight.
I
highly doubt the entire Gallows was a couple dozens mages. The three
you can spare for example did not use blood magic or else the option to
spare them wouldn't exist. Then there were the ones fighting Templars in
the cutscene, where not a single one used blood magic. Finally I think
that in times of desperation, the mages fighting with the demons would
hold onto the small hope that those wjo summoned them can control them
rather than just let themselves die, so some mages standing next to
demons ma have had nothing to do with summoning them. The Wardens in
Warden's Keep did the same thing.


Naive that you didn't saw and they told they aren't blood mages doesn't mean they weren't and possibility of sparing them have nothing to do with it you can still spare alain and some blood mages from grace group or ilduna... abomnations galore thats all... yes throw everything on desperation like always many try last lewer for pro-mages...

Naive would be doing something like blanket statements, not actually looking at details for insight.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 17 février 2014 - 11:14 .


#512
TheKomandorShepard

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...


Naive would be doing something like blanket statements, not actually looking at details for insight.


Yeah when you will look at "details" abomnations will burning world and gather army of undead...
simple roa assumes killing every mage innocent or not because we can't say difference who is who and mistake would be too expensive and that was in kirkwall you automatically think that they said they are not blood mages so they aren't thats naive...

#513
Hanako Ikezawa

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MisterJB wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
That's the key phrase though, isn't it? Those you fight.
I highly doubt the entire Gallows was a couple dozens mages.

That is true, of course and I am not saying every mage in the Circle was using blood magic; I am just saying that Meredith is not wrong when she says there is much corruption within the Circle.

The three you can spare for example did not use blood magic or else the option to spare them wouldn't exist.

Quentin's apprentice; whose name I really can't recall right now; can be spared early in the game and he was a blood mage who was lying to Hawke's face.
Those three mages could be lying although, for the record, I do spare them.

Finally I think that in times of desperation, the mages fighting with the demons would hold onto the small hope that those wjo summoned them can control them rather than just let themselves die, so some mages standing next to demons ma have had nothing to do with summoning them. The Wardens in Warden's Keep did the same thing.

Sympathizers are really not much of an upgrade. Those three who surrendered had the right idea.

1. Yes, I'll agree there was at least some corruption. Orsino being in league with Quentin or at least not reporting him is enough evidence to confirm that.
2. His name was Gascard, and I was unaware you can spare him. I always have Varric with me who always shoots him with Bianca.
3. I agree the three who surrendered were smart since Hawke was on the Templar side so could speak reason. That said, without Hawke I doubt Meredith would allow them to be spared. But perhaps Cullen always stands up for them, we just don't know. I hope he dos since that earns points with me. 

#514
durasteel

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I always considered the Circle to have more-or-less the same logic behind it as the “war on drugs” in the USA. By identifying a threat and making the general populous terrified of it with propaganda, you can wield almost unlimited power at their expense as long as they believe that you’re keeping them safe from the bogey-man.

The Templars round up anyone with the potential for magic and put them into a concentration camp. Each is made to undergo a test and if they fail, they’re lobotomized and made into a docile slave. Those who refuse, or run away, are killed. It’s a pogrom, plain and simple, and it exists to make people believe that they need the Chantry to protect them so that the Chantry can expand its power.

The Chantry’s power grows on two fronts through the Circle pogrom. First, the populous and the secular authorities are made to fear that there might be an abomination hiding under the bed, so the Templars are allowed to do whatever they want to provided they claim that it is necessary to round up the abominable. This also provides the justification for the Chantry to keep the Templar Order as a standing army wherever it pleases, often with the result that the populous turns to the Templars for help with purely mundane matters, leading to their assumption of secular authority (like in Kirkwall, or Lothering.)

The second way in which the Chantry’s power grows is that the Circle is a powerful weapon in its own right. If the only sanctioned use of magic is within the Circle, and the Circle is controlled by the Chantry, then the Chantry is holding the biggest gun on the battlefield. You don’t suppose that might be one of the reasons that non-sanctioned magic users are so vigorously hunted down, do you? It’s not safety, it’s arms control.

The Chantry permits the Circle to train mages in approved (useful for Chantry purposes) schools of magic, and forbids all others. Blood magic is strictly taboo because it would allow a mage to bypass the need for lyrium, the flow of which the Chantry strictly controls. Other schools of magic, like shape shifting, are prohibited because they do not serve the Chantry’s objectives. Also, a shape shifter is harder to hunt down by the Templars.

Of course, for the pogrom to remain effective for almost 1,000 years requires the occasional display to keep the ignorant masses (you should know who you are, but almost certainly don’t) fearful and compliant. That part’s easy. Treat someone like a plague carrier, cage them like an animal, strip them of any and all freedoms, and inevitably someone will resist. Send the Templars to hunt them, preferably driving them into a populated area (witnesses are useful.) Make a big show of cornering the runner, and one of two things will happen: either the Templars capture the mage to be drug away in chains, making the “sheeple” feel safe, or the mage turns in desperation to blood magic to try to escape or, as a last alternative, to take out as many Templar as possible before death’s last caress. This is pure money for the Chantry, because seeing a maleficar fight for survival is exactly the sort of thing that will keep the unwashed masses terrified—not of the Templars that caused the problem, but of the mages they believe are to blame. As these stories are spread by word of mouth and become more horrible with each retelling, the demand for even more Templars will rise in a chorus most pleasing to the Chantry’s ear.

#515
Master Warder Z_

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People are arguing about the Circle in Kirkwall...really?

That entire place is Accursed, But in truth even reports from in game acknowledge that there are more outbreaks and confirmed cases of Blood Magic there then any other circle outside of the Imperium.

Wouldn't be amazed if every one in the circle was a corrupted demon trucking blood mage, But that said there likely are a scant handful that aren't but again i'd safely assume the majority were and simply be rid of them.

Meredith was completely right about the current incarnation being corrupt after all, Corrupt to its highest levels even.

#516
Hellion Rex

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MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Of the one's that had non-hostile demons assisting, how many could have been enthralled by demons that crossed over physically into the Gallows? By that point, I would figure most wouldn't even need to summon the demons cause the Veil was fractured enough by the magic to allow spirits to cross as they pleased.

Whenever mages or Templars are being enthralled, it is noticeable. They are lying on their knees in adoration of Desire Demons and the such. Those non-hostile demons are mostly shades and Rage which are not know for seducing mortals.

Haven't we had this argument before? I feel like we are starting to run in circles now lol
:lol:

#517
Hellion Rex

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Master Warder Z wrote...

People are arguing about the Circle in Kirkwall...really?

That entire place is Accursed, But in truth even reports from in game acknowledge that there are more outbreaks and confirmed cases of Blood Magic there then any other circle outside of the Imperium.

Wouldn't be amazed if every one in the circle was a corrupted demon trucking blood mage, But that said there likely are a scant handful that aren't but again i'd safely assume the majority were and simply be rid of them.

Meredith was completely right about the current incarnation being corrupt after all, Corrupt to its highest levels even.


No doubt in part thanks to her rather conservative regime.
<_<

#518
TheKomandorShepard

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eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

People are arguing about the Circle in Kirkwall...really?

That entire place is Accursed, But in truth even reports from in game acknowledge that there are more outbreaks and confirmed cases of Blood Magic there then any other circle outside of the Imperium.

Wouldn't be amazed if every one in the circle was a corrupted demon trucking blood mage, But that said there likely are a scant handful that aren't but again i'd safely assume the majority were and simply be rid of them.

Meredith was completely right about the current incarnation being corrupt after all, Corrupt to its highest levels even.


No doubt in part thanks to her rather conservative regime.
<_<


Yes ferelden circle , baroness and every other 1000000 disasters caused by mages were meredith fault crap even first tevinter empire was her fault damn mages are so pure and perfect the embodiment of innocence they just need love it is everything templars fault! :lol:

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 17 février 2014 - 11:27 .


#519
Hanako Ikezawa

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes ferelden circle , baroness and every other 1000000 disasters caused by mages were meredith fault crap even first tevinter empire was her fault damn mages are so pure and perfect the embodiment of innocence they just need love it is everything templars fault! :lol:

Okay, I was fine with you not listing disasters by mages but pulling out the number one million makes me call you out on it. List me one million disasters that was caused by mages. Also, each disaster only counts as one, so no "Blight kills tens of thousands of people".

#520
Hanako Ikezawa

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eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Of the one's that had non-hostile demons assisting, how many could have been enthralled by demons that crossed over physically into the Gallows? By that point, I would figure most wouldn't even need to summon the demons cause the Veil was fractured enough by the magic to allow spirits to cross as they pleased.

Whenever mages or Templars are being enthralled, it is noticeable. They are lying on their knees in adoration of Desire Demons and the such. Those non-hostile demons are mostly shades and Rage which are not know for seducing mortals.

Haven't we had this argument before? I feel like we are starting to run in circles now lol
:lol:

I get it.:o

#521
Veruin

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Mages must be breeding like rabbits if they were able to do a million things wrong.

#522
Hellion Rex

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Veruin wrote...

Mages must be breeding like rabbits if they were able to do a million things wrong.


More like the Energizer bunny.

#523
Hellion Rex

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LDS Darth Revan wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...
Of the one's that had non-hostile demons assisting, how many could have been enthralled by demons that crossed over physically into the Gallows? By that point, I would figure most wouldn't even need to summon the demons cause the Veil was fractured enough by the magic to allow spirits to cross as they pleased.

Whenever mages or Templars are being enthralled, it is noticeable. They are lying on their knees in adoration of Desire Demons and the such. Those non-hostile demons are mostly shades and Rage which are not know for seducing mortals.

Haven't we had this argument before? I feel like we are starting to run in circles now lol
:lol:

I get it.:o

Thank you, thank you! Hold the applause.
 :lol:

Modifié par eluvianix, 17 février 2014 - 11:37 .


#524
TheLittleBird

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TheKomandorShepard wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

People are arguing about the Circle in Kirkwall...really?

That entire place is Accursed, But in truth even reports from in game acknowledge that there are more outbreaks and confirmed cases of Blood Magic there then any other circle outside of the Imperium.

Wouldn't be amazed if every one in the circle was a corrupted demon trucking blood mage, But that said there likely are a scant handful that aren't but again i'd safely assume the majority were and simply be rid of them.

Meredith was completely right about the current incarnation being corrupt after all, Corrupt to its highest levels even.


No doubt in part thanks to her rather conservative regime.
<_<


Yes ferelden circle , baroness and every other 1000000 disasters caused by mages were meredith fault crap even first tevinter empire was her fault damn mages are so pure and perfect the embodiment of innocence they just need love it is everything templars fault! :lol:


Yeah, because he was only talking about Kirkwall. *Sigh*
Dude, it's magic. A power like magic has big advantages, but can also bring disaster. The templars need to apprehend and contain these disasters as much as they can. Not kill every last mage out there. 

Haha. Like firemen flooding the entire world to make fire absent.

#525
Veruin

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eluvianix wrote...

More like the Energizer bunny.


I was not aware he got tail.  Now the sunglasses make sense.