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[EmissaryofLies]

Asunder made it very clear the circle was in revolt when it was annulled, it wasn't annulled offhandedly. That's basically where i end the story there, there wasn't much detail given and i don't make gross assumptions about it.

Fine, believe what you will about what happened there. All I know is that they were not the monsters the Chantry/Templars claimed that they would be. This is accounted for, from their very own citizens.
 

Uh no i can actually disagree with you, and given Mages rightfully fear tranquility their bargaining didn't strike me as odd. Although i grant you Alrik was possibly going to take advantage of her, but he never actually did, its about like saying "Terrorist A said he was going to blow up a chantry but we caught him before hand"

Because the tranquil mage popping up in Act II gallows talking about how she 'belongs to Alrik now' did not happen? Ella was the FIRST girl he was going to violate? Or did you forget? He proposed a final solution, he's got illegally tranquiled mages popping up in the gallows. Saint Bethany even calls him out on his creepy stares. Does the man need to wear a sign on his forehead?
 

Not their place? Policing Mages and Magic is their Place, and given Chantry Law supersedes Grey Warden Agreements with the  various Thedosian Monarchies they didn't even do anything wrong.

Not their place as in Anders was doing the right thing, he was fighting the darkspawn, making Thedas a safer place. But of course it is never enough for the Chantry. Just like when they tossed the mages back into their prisons after they helped fight the Qunari to a standstill. And you want me to look at this institution's involvement with mages as something that should be appreciated? I'd sooner trust a junkie with a million dollars.
 

And Wynee magically knows about every case beyond her own? It was a broad sweeping sympathy statement, much as "are these children going to be killed by your hand as well if you decide to help the templars?"  And in her own case she admits that all she got was a few nights locked in a barn before she was taken by the Templars, so it can't be personal experience. Excuse me for not taking her blanket statements as fact.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with your last point. Pity it was done in sarcasm but its about the truth of it.

If Jowan's testitmony about his very own parents is any indication of just how much some Andrastians fear and hate mages...Well I'm inclined to believe her.

[Xilizhra]

Seriously, which would have gone worse, Orsino turning Quentin in or Meredith finding out Orsino was sheltering Quentin?

Both about the same, probably.

[wcholcombe]

Yet she does it to oppress but Anders does it to free. Its a tyrant versus a freedom fighter (who usually murder to reach their goals in history)

 

From a neutral point of view its quite clear who gets more negativity. Also Meredith is not ready to face punishment for her actions, she is not trying to redeem herself at all and resists till the end to the point of madness. Anders can be killed and is willing to die or help save mage's lives he endangered which are redeeming qualities.

 

I agree Orsino was kinda "forced" to be the end boss but Anders would have been as bad. Act 3 is just rushed as the game was not going to make it to the deadline EA wanted. Everyone knows that. Act 1 is brilliant, act 2 is quite ok and act 3 is just terrible.

Your just arguing semantics now.  The fact is they both did horrible/terrible things because they believed what they did was necessary and didn't believe in compromise with the other side.

 

I have no issue if you liked or respected Anders view point, others have the same feelings for Meredith. Yes, it is not even, but that is because of the poor presentation.  If they had taken the next step of giving Anders the stuff that ultimately condemns Orsino, it would be perfect symmetry to the sides and the conflict.

 

As it is, Meredith is easy to hate if you disagree with her and Orsino is kind of the blah choice you get if you support the templars as opposed to funneling all that hate for what anders did and combining it with the whole Quentin storyline would have made far more sense.

[Master Warder Z_]

He was bouncing between other things in precisely that manner. With everything involving the reclamation of his emotions being sheer joy, funnily enough.

 

He acted in a manner consistent with manic depression, which i as i said before would have led to overshadowing positives with negatives in the very fashion it occurred within. There wasn't a context for said negativity or at least it wasn't voiced, it was just blanket emotion. Which to me gives the conclusion there may or may not be a validity to said emotion.

[LobselVith8]

When you stop touting the Dalish Master race line perhaps you won't be so... I don't know ludicrous when you make such assumptions.

 

Your Godwin statements don't actually have anything to do with the Dalish or my preferences to play a non-Andrastian main character, aside from your clear disdain for the Dalish refusing to submit to human rule, since you continually argue they should bend knee to humanity.

[wcholcombe]

Both about the same, probably.

Really....One shows cooperation the other shows hiding and treachery from your 1st enchanter.  Meredith was hardcore and wrong, but she wasn't totally crazy until act 3.

[Master Warder Z_]

Fine, believe what you will about what happened there. All I know is that they were not the monsters the Chantry/Templars claimed that they would be. This is accounted for, from their very own citizens.
 

Because the tranquil mage popping up in Act II gallows talking about how she 'belongs to Alrik now' did not happen? Ella was the FIRST girl he was going to violate? Or did you forget? He proposed a final solution, he's got illegally tranquiled mages popping up in the gallows. Saint Bethany even calls him out on his creepy stares. Does the man need to wear a sign on his forehead?
 

Not their place as in Anders was doing the right thing, he was fighting the darkspawn, making Thedas a safer place. But of course it is never enough for the Chantry. Just like when they tossed the mages back into their prisons after they helped fight the Qunari to a standstill. And you want me to look at this institution's involvement with mages as something that should be appreciated? I'd sooner trust a junkie with a million dollars.
 

If Jowan's testitmony about his very own parents is any indication of just how much some Andrastians fear and hate mages...Well I'm inclined to believe her.

 

I do believe i just said my position on this, Given the lack of detail i'l take their word for the circle revolting before it was annulled.

 

See that's your perspective, again i'd point out that they had legal authority to seize a criminal of the circle given that again chantry law supersedes the agreements made with Grey Wardens to conscript Mages.

 

So...One possible case and her assumption is enough to sway you? Good enough for you perhaps but not enough for me.

 

Edit: I don't recall the random tranquil you mentioned in DA 2's second act, but again given his track record with this, it would be fair say the matter would be debatable considering Karl his ONE confirmed case did do something to warrant it. Also The tranquil solution is a debatable subject but ultimately has no basis given it was denied and not implemented.

 

Besides It would give me an excuse to wear my "Fine Ol Solution" Squidbillies shirt i got off the Adultswim store.

[Master Warder Z_]

since you continually argue they should bend knee to humanity.

 

They really should, it would make their lives considerably easier.

[EmissaryofLies]

Orsino was gambling with their lives by not cooperating with Meredith to root out blood mages. If he had reported Quentin when he first knew about him it would have helped relations, he for dang sure should have reported him when he knew what Quentin was doing.

Interesting; I'd agree if I knew exactly when he first knew about Quentin. I can see that it might have helped, but I can also see how his good intentions could have spurred on the inevitable.

A big part of Meredith's issue with Orsino was that she felt he was hiding something and she didn't trust him.  Guess what, he validated that belief.

Fair enough. He was hiding something. While meredith turned a blind eye to Alrik's tranquils and Karras' rapes and even blood mages that practically littered the streets in Act III, where was she then? Probably trying to take more control away from the city she claims to protect.

Yes, it is a gamble, but it is also a gamble and endangerment to the other mages to help Quentin with the risk of if Meredith found out.  Seriously, which would have gone worse, Orsino turning Quentin in or Meredith finding out Orsino was sheltering Quentin?

The latter would have gone worse, no doubt. Though I see no reason to believe that both would not have led to the same or similar conclusion.

It was stupid to help Quentin in the first place despite the knowledge he would eventually reap. But that ship sailed, why rock the boat even further when you notice the KC is squeezing even harder?

[wcholcombe]

Interesting; I'd agree if I knew exactly when he first knew about Quentin. I can see that it might have helped, but I can also see how his good intentions could have spurred on the inevitable.


Fair enough. He was hiding something. While meredith turned a blind eye to Alrik's tranquils and Karras' rapes and even blood mages that practically littered the streets in Act III, where was she then? Probably trying to take more control away from the city she claims to protect.


The latter would have gone worse, no doubt. Though I see no reason to believe that both would not have led to the same or similar conclusion.

It was stupid to help Quentin in the first place despite the knowledge he would eventually reap. But that ship sailed, why rock the boat even further when you notice the KC is squeezing even harder?

I agree with most of this, as I have previously said Meredith's biggest failing is her failure to protect the mages under her care.  That more than the ROA she declares lands her in the pit with the Qunari Broodmother.  I can on some level make an argument to defend the ROA, there is none for defending the abuses she tolerated by her templars on the mages.  And no, ignorance of them isn't a defense nor is turning a blind eye.

 

I will still maintane though that Orsino failed as much in his duty as 1st Enchanter by not doing what was best for the circle by revealing and rooting out malificarum he was aware of.  It is possible quentin is the only one, it is also possible that some or all of the blood mages you encounter at the end of Act III were blood mages he knew about, or they could have just done it then out of desperation.  I admit it, we don't know.  But we do know he was harboring Quentin and that he could have been more cooperative and the circle would have been better for it.

 

Orsino's failings are no more excused by Meredith's toleration of abominable acts then Meredith's failings are excused by Orsino's.

[Lulupab]

Your just arguing semantics now.  The fact is they both did horrible/terrible things because they believed what they did was necessary and didn't believe in compromise with the other side.

 

I have no issue if you liked or respected Anders view point, others have the same feelings for Meredith. Yes, it is not even, but that is because of the poor presentation.  If they had taken the next step of giving Anders the stuff that ultimately condemns Orsino, it would be perfect symmetry to the sides and the conflict.

 

As it is, Meredith is easy to hate if you disagree with her and Orsino is kind of the blah choice you get if you support the templars as opposed to funneling all that hate for what anders did and combining it with the whole Quentin storyline would have made far more sense.

Putting away semantics and opinions, something you said is just very wrong I had to point it out, the bold part.

 

It would have make NO SENSE at all if Anders was involved with any kind of blood magic or demons. Besides Orsino remains the fool as pro-mages players acknowledge necessity of Anders's actions and pro-templars acknowledge Meredith's actions. Orsino remains the person who almost no one likes, probably participated in Leandra's murder and turns into a monster intentionally, literally.

 

David Gaider himself said he set the role of Anders prior to DA2. He sorted out what he was going to do before the game, Jennifer Hepler wrote him in detail and how he does his role. So it probably means the option to keep him alive, no matter what, to be in the game was intended as there is a possibility he might be included in DA:I if alive or Justice taking the role if he is dead. My point is Meredith along with Orsino were quite expendable so they are dead in canon.

[EmissaryofLies]

I do believe i just said my position on this, Given the lack of detail i'l take their word for the circle revolting before it was annulled.
 
See that's your perspective, again i'd point out that they had legal authority to seize a criminal of the circle given that again chantry law supersedes the agreements made with Grey Wardens to conscript Mages.
 
So...One possible case and her assumption is enough to sway you? Good enough for you perhaps but not enough for me.

So essentially what you're telling me is that mages are damned if they do and damned if they don't. A mage 'criminal' wants to fight darkspawn? Reprehensible behavior, fighting for the greater good is grounds for punishment if you are a mage.

It absolutely boggles my mind how Anders had even kept it together for as long as he did, even with the addition of justice. I think I'm starting to understand why Adrian was willing to do what she did. Even with Justinia, how can you compromise with people who will always see you as the bad guy no matter what you do?

[dzs Angel]

This is kinda long but I promise its worth the read. Anders was never meant to be the big bad.

 

People are going either "OMG HE'S AN EVIL MURDERING BASTARD" or "OMG FINALLY SOMEONE BLEW UP THE CHANTRY" and missing the bloody point: that Anders himself never questioned that what he did was wrong. He fully acknowledges that his actions were murder, and were morally contemptible, and that justice was required of him for what he did. What he understood is that it wasn't about right or wrong, it was about necessity. He believed that the system of imprisoning mages within Circles, under the watch of the Chantry's templars, was wrong, and would accept nothing less than total freedom. And with that, he understood that unless someone was willing to take drastic measures, then nothing ever would change. He knew that the templars would rise against mages everywhere for his action, and that therefore all the mages locked within Circle towers would be forced to rise up against the templars in order to save themselves. By his actions, no mages would be able to take, say, Wynne's position that the templars and Circles are necessary, except for those mages who hated their own magic and wanted to embrace imprisonment or even suicide. They would have to either submit to templar tyranny, or fight to save their own lives. By extension, he also removed middle-of-the-road templars who weren't quite so eager to terrorize the mages under their watch. So he removed any stalemate--"there can be no compromise"--in the name of ending an indisputably broken system that served no one.

That is the best explanation I have ever read.

 

When you stop touting the Dalish Master race line perhaps you won't be so... I don't know ludicrous when you make such assumptions.

Lobselvith is just stating the facts.

 

Your Godwin statements don't actually have anything to do with the Dalish or my preferences to play a non-Andrastian main character, aside from your clear disdain for the Dalish refusing to submit to human rule, since you continually argue they should bend knee to humanity.

Thus Z finally reveals his true goal: Dominance. Just like the Orlaisians and the Chantry. You never cared for stability or safety, you just want to stay in power. It is as simple as that.

[wcholcombe]

Putting away semantics and opinions, something you said is just very wrong I had to point it out, the bold part.

 

It would have make NO SENSE at all if Anders was involved with any kind of blood magic or demons. Besides Orsino remains the fool as pro-mages players acknowledge necessity of Anders's actions and pro-templars acknowledge Meredith's actions. Orsino remains the person who almost no one likes, probably participated in Leandra's murder and turns into a monster intentionally, literally.

 

David Gaider himself said he set the role of Anders prior to DA2. He sorted out what he was going to do before the game, Jennifer Hepler wrote him in detail and how he does his role. So it probably means the option to keep him alive, no matter what, to be in the game was intended as there is a possibility he might be included in DA:I if alive or Justice taking the role if he is dead. My point is Meredith along with Orsino were quite expendable so they are dead in canon.

I am not arguing your final point.  Just that dramatically and from a narrative point of view Anders and Meredith are opposites and the story would have been much better if Ander's was the evil bad mage.

 

You think Pro Mages wouldn't have still defended Anders?  Sure they would have, but it would have been a more balanced debate than Meredith vs. Orsino....

[EmissaryofLies]

@wcholcombe
 

 

That is fair and I am inclined to agree. Both parties are to blame.
 

[Master Warder Z_]

So essentially what you're telling me is that mages are damned if they do and damned if they don't. A mage 'criminal' wants to fight darkspawn? Reprehensible behavior, fighting for the greater good is grounds for punishment if you are a mage.

It absolutely boggles my mind how Anders had even kept it together for as long as he did, even with the addition of justice. I think I'm starting to understand why Adrian was willing to do what she did. Even with Justinia, how can you compromise with people who will always see you as the bad guy no matter what you do?

 

Him possibly murdering Templars doesn't aid you in the least? Even the Warden Commander doesn't exactly know what happened to them considering that he strolled upon the situation after the battle was already over, And him possibly fighting Darkspawn to get away from a circle that will likely execute him for his many escape attempts and crimes sounds like its self sacrafice to you?

 

He has more in common with Daveth then any Warden who joined solely to combat a threat to Thedas.

 

And now you are arguing their can be no compromise really? Both Sides have their stances and both have arguments for them, If there can be no compromise then it falls to the individual to pick a side and determine the best course. Just odd that you would find some sanity to a nutter who brought the world to the brink of war is all.

[wcholcombe]

See that's your perspective, again i'd point out that they had legal authority to seize a criminal of the circle given that again chantry law supersedes the agreements made with Grey Wardens to conscript Mages.

 

 

 

ok MWZ, I am not touching most of this, but that statement is false.  The right of conscription pardons criminals from their past.  Thereby once an apostate, malificar, or whatever becomes a warden, the Chantry no longer has any authority to pursue him. He is just a grey warden mage.

[wcholcombe]

@wcholcombe
 

 

That is fair and I am inclined to agree.
 

Good, I was rather proud of where I finally arrived in that long running diatribe

[Master Warder Z_]

ok MWZ, I am not touching most of this, but that statement is false.  The right of conscription pardons criminals from their past.  Thereby once an apostate, malificar, or whatever becomes a warden, the Chantry no longer has any authority to pursue him. He is just a grey warden mage.

 

Not according to the Chantry or Templars.

 

And given the Chantry's Omnipresence through out Thedosian Society, i could see that being the case if the Chantry decided to make it an issue, Monarchies overlooking the right of conscription already being applied.

 

It mean its a minor order being compared to the most populas religion in Thedas.

[dzs Angel]

ok MWZ, I am not touching most of this, but that statement is false.  The right of conscription pardons criminals from their past.  Thereby once an apostate, malificar, or whatever becomes a warden, the Chantry no longer has any authority to pursue him. He is just a grey warden mage.

Correct.

[renfrees]

It would have make NO SENSE at all if Anders was involved with any kind of blood magic or demons. 

First of all, Anders was involved with demons once he chose to merge with Justice. Secondly, for all his self-righteousness about freedom, he supports Hawke selling out Fenris into literal slavery. He is way more hypocritical, than you want him to be.

[Master Warder Z_]

Lobselvith is just stating the facts.

 

So his belief in something being comparable to Slavery despite it not fitting the criteria automatically makes it so?

 

 

 

Thus Z finally reveals his true goal: Dominance. Just like the Orlaisians and the Chantry. You never cared for stability or safety, you just want to stay in power. It is as simple as that.

 

Because i really have a standing in a fictional universe and my livelihood directly depends upon certain factions remaining in power, oh how you see through me to my corrupt little core 

 

I'm being entirely sarcastic you realize, I make an argument that some folks disagree with and then forgo any merit that argument has to make an attack on character.

 

._.

 

Not very good debating ethic.

[Veruin]

First of all, Anders was involved with demons once he chose to merge with Justice. Secondly, for all his self-righteousness about freedom, he supports Hawke selling out Fenris into literal slavery. He is way more hypocritical, than you want him to be.

I remember someone trying to justify that, because Anders hated Fenris, it was ok.

[SeekerOfLight]

I agree with most of this, as I have previously said Meredith's biggest failing is her failure to protect the mages under her care.  That more than the ROA she declares lands her in the pit with the Qunari Broodmother.  I can on some level make an argument to defend the ROA, there is none for defending the abuses she tolerated by her templars on the mages.  And no, ignorance of them isn't a defense nor is turning a blind eye.

 

I will still maintane though that Orsino failed as much in his duty as 1st Enchanter by not doing what was best for the circle by revealing and rooting out malificarum he was aware of.  It is possible quentin is the only one, it is also possible that some or all of the blood mages you encounter at the end of Act III were blood mages he knew about, or they could have just done it then out of desperation.  I admit it, we don't know.  But we do know he was harboring Quentin and that he could have been more cooperative and the circle would have been better for it.

 

Orsino's failings are no more excused by Meredith's toleration of abominable acts then Meredith's failings are excused by Orsino's.

I'ld add that one of the main failings of the templar leadership is a focus on punishing mages, while intentionally or unintentionally ignoring the failings of her subordinates.

 

By punishing templars that carry out abuses, it would undercut the arguements of chantry seperatists. Justice must not just be done, it must be seen to be done.

[wcholcombe]

Not according to the Chantry or Templars.

 

And given the Chantry's Omnipresence through out Thedosian Society, i could see that being the case if the Chantry decided to make it an issue, Monarchies overlooking the right of conscription already being applied.

 

It mean its a minor order being compared to the most populas religion in Thedas.

Considering the Grey Wardens' predate the Chantry and so do the agreements, and the templars in DAO do nothing to grey warden apostates nor does the chantry at ostagar go after them and that the circle has an agreement that the grey wardens can conscript one mage from the tower at a time, yeah I think the Chantry/Templars by and large respect it.