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[renfrees]

I remember someone trying to justify that, because Anders hated Fenris, it was ok.

And Meredith invoked RoA because she hated Orsino. It's ok too.

[EmissaryofLies]

 

Edit: I don't recall the random tranquil you mentioned in DA 2's second act, but again given his track record with this, it would be fair say the matter would be debatable considering Karl his ONE confirmed case did do something to warrant it. Also The tranquil solution is a debatable subject but ultimately has no basis given it was denied and not implemented.

 

Besides It would give me an excuse to wear my "Fine Ol Solution" Squidbillies shirt i got off the Adultswim store.

 

I am more than happy to help, Warder.

 

[Lulupab]

First of all, Anders was involved with demons once he chose to merge with Justice. Secondly, for all his self-righteousness about freedom, he supports Hawke selling out Fenris into literal slavery. He is way more hypocritical, than you want him to be.

 

Justice a demon? Wrong. In the fade he is recognized as a spirit by a demon whom its opinion I value far above yours as its an in game event and yours is just an opinion. You'd think a demon would know his kind when he sees it. 

 

One hypocrisy does not make you a hypocrite although he simply hates Fenris for approving of circles and admiring them (when you take him to the gallows for the 1st time) would you prefer Anders killed Fenris?. He speaks of Justice yet does not exclude himself from it as people who he killed in Chantry deserve Justice as well therefore he is ready to face Justice, however Hakwe sees it fit. Backstabd, help to save mages, kill mages.

 

Next?

 

Edit: I'm not justifying Anders's approval of fenris's slavery, just mentioning why he approved.

[Master Warder Z_]

Considering the Grey Wardens' predate the Chantry and so do the agreements, and the templars in DAO do nothing to grey warden apostates nor does the chantry at ostagar go after them and that the circle has an agreement that the grey wardens can conscript one mage from the tower at a time, yeah I think the Chantry/Templars by and large respect it.

 

Not within Fereldan, those powers were stripped away and the Order is a minority of a minority within the Realm, The Crown was the one who reinstated those powers after all, Regional presence or lack there of aside.

 

It also could be that during the events of said Blight they were also reeling with their own issues.

 

It could have simply been a matter to put off for another day, but given if the Hero of Fereldan lives after the Blight they become an important personage within the Nation, it becomes a more difficult thing to accomplish, Also in some circumstances the Warden could leave the Wardens willingly and not out of desperation due to events there it could be amicable split.

 

Point being the Warden as usual was a special snowflake and isn't comparable to a fella who has escaped the circle multiple times and may or may not have murdered his templar watchers.

[The Baconer]

I remember someone trying to justify that, because Anders hated Fenris, it was ok.

 

What's-his-name... Raijin?

[Grieving Natashina]

I am more than happy to help, Warder.

 

Thanks for that Emissary.  I remember her and those conversations.  I was left nicely disturbed when I headed back out to quest in Act 2 my first time through the game.

[wcholcombe]

Justice a demon? Wrong. In the fade he is recognized as a spirit by a demon whom its opinion I value far above yours as its an in game event and yours is just an opinion. You'd think a demon would know his kind when he sees it. 

 

One hypocrisy does not make you a hypocrite although he simply hates Fenris for approving of circles and admiring them (when you take him to the gallows for the 1st time) would you prefer Anders killed Fenris?. He speaks of Justice yet does not exclude himself from it as people who he killed in Chantry deserve Justice as well therefore he is ready to face Justice, however Hakwe sees it fit. Backstabd, help to save mages, kill mages.

 

Next?

 

Edit: I'm not justifying Anders's approval of fenris's slavery, just mentioning why he approved.

While that makes sense, a lot of stuff in DA2 doesn't make sense.  I can far more easily justify Anders going the its worth whatever the cost is to achieve mage freedom and going demons/blood magic route than I can Orsino Harvester on me.

[Master Warder Z_]

I am more than happy to help, Warder.

 

 

Random quotes i didn't recall for a reason apparently, i didn't like the Gallows always slowed down my PC immensely due to all the resolution of having to pretty up those slave statues...anyway. Alright coolio he ordered one unknown mage for unknown reasons to become tranquil after passing a harrowing, i always thought that was a stupid law if i am being honest.

 

A Harrowing maintains you can resist demonic influence and possession, it doesn't prevent you from "dabbling" in stuff best left forbidden.

 

Anyway to another point.

 

Hrm given that Tranquil only serve by choice and maintain free will wouldn't any relationship be consequential at least to a degree? Point being, given you maintain free will, if agreeing to intercourse still requires consent, it would therefore not be rape no?

[Veruin]

What's-his-name... Raijin?

I can't remember if it was Raijin or Rassler.

 

Definitely one of those two though.

 

And Meredith invoked RoA because she hated Orsino. It's ok too.

I don't remember Meredith hating Orsino.  Not trusting him? For sure.  Straight up hating him? I don't think so.

[wcholcombe]

Not within Fereldan, those powers were stripped away and the Order is a minority of a minority within the Realm, The Crown was the one who reinstated those powers after all, Regional presence or lack there of aside.

 

It also could be that during the events of said Blight they were also reeling with their own issues.

 

It could have simply been a matter to put off for another day, but given if the Hero of Fereldan lives after the Blight they become an important personage within the Nation, it becomes a more difficult thing to accomplish, Also in some circumstances the Warden could leave the Wardens willingly and not out of desperation due to events there it could be amicable split.

 

Point being the Warden as usual was a special snowflake and isn't comparable to a fella who has escaped the circle multiple times and may or may not have murdered his templar watchers.

Ferelden's stance on the Wardens has no bearing on the Chantry's. I am certain the Chantry has their own treaty signed with the Wardens.  And considering your whole coalition of Dalish/Dwarf/Ferelden/Mage forces is based on treaties that are who knows how old, your argument doesn't really work.

 

The templars who pursued Anders as a GW were wrong and I would argue rogue anyway.  Yes the Templars that captured him as an apostate and took him to the keep were correct, but any templar that pursued him after the joining was wrong.

[Master Warder Z_]

Ferelden's stance on the Wardens has no bearing on the Chantry's. I am certain the Chantry has their own treaty signed with the Wardens.  And considering your whole coalition of Dalish/Dwarf/Ferelden/Mage forces is based on treaties that are who knows how old, your argument doesn't really work.

 

The templars who pursued Anders as a GW were wrong and I would argue rogue anyway.  Yes the Templars that captured him as an apostate and took him to the keep were correct, but any templar that pursued him after the joining was wrong.

 

So because you have your own speculation, my own speculation goes out the window?

 

Fair enough.

[dzs Angel]

So his belief in something being comparable to Slavery despite it not fitting the criteria automatically makes it so?

 

 

 

 

Because i really have a standing in a fictional universe and my livelihood directly depends upon certain factions remaining in poewr, oh how you see through me to my corrupt little core 

 

I'm being entirely sarcastic you realize, I make an argument that some folks disagree with and then forgo any merit that argument has to make an attack on character.

 

._.

 

Not very good debating ethic.

1.

 

But it fits the description of slavery.

 

2.

 

Because i really have a standing in a fictional universe and my livelihood directly depends

upon certain factions remaining in poewr

 

That´s excactly what I am talking about. You don´t value the goals you claim to value. You want this system to continue in order to stay in power and to earn money. Thus the mages have to stay enslaved because you want to live the dream

 

 

But like you said, everyone of us is playing a role in a game provided by a company called Bioware.

[renfrees]

Justice a demon? Wrong. In the fade he is recognized as a spirit by a demon whom its opinion I value far above yours as its an in game event and yours is just an opinion. You'd think a demon would know his kind when he sees it. 

 

One hypocrisy does not make you a hypocrite although he simply hates Fenris for approving of circles and admiring them (when you take him to the gallows for the 1st time) would you prefer Anders killed Fenris?. He speaks of Justice yet does not exclude himself from it as people who he killed in Chantry deserve Justice as well therefore he is ready to face Justice, however Hakwe sees it fit. Backstabd, help to save mages, kill mages.

 

Next?

 

Edit: I'm not justifying Anders's approval of fenris's slavery, just mentioning why he approved.

Justice IS a spirit, as is any demon, as Merril generously point out. Whatever you call them doesn't change the facts, that they seek out basically the same thing.

 

I'd prefer he stand by his beliefs against slavery. Was it justice or petty hate/jealousy? Everyone else in party disapproves this action, even Merril, who had suffered a lot of harsh treatment from Fenris. I'd also point out, that despite his support of the Circles, Fenris doesn't turn in Anders or Merril and even lashes out on Sebastian, when he suggests it.

 

 

When one hypocrisy occurs on fundamental belief, then the other would simply be a matter of time, which he hasn't given.

[Lulupab]

What's-his-name... Raijin?

 

I don't know but perhaps.

 

Its worth to notice however that its Hawke who is doing the act, Anders is just liking it cause he hates Fenris. There are people we'd like to see burn but would never do it ourself. It does not criminalize us in anyway. Hawke is the true evil here not Anders.

 

Just like many other reactions, Anders's approval of selling Fenris is specific to an evil Hawke. There are many events that only one type of personality or choice can see and generally rest of options don't happen in that game as only one can be chosen. It all depends on the player just like romances (playersexual). 

[renfrees]

I can't remember if it was Raijin or Rassler.

 

Definitely one of those two though.

 

I don't remember Meredith hating Orsino.  Not trusting him? For sure.  Straight up hating him? I don't think so.

It was obvious sarcasm   

[wcholcombe]

So because you have your own speculation, my own speculation goes out the window?

 

Fair enough.

??  what did I say was speculation?

 

I speculated that the templars were rogue because it would be a violation the treaty to go after a GW Mage.

Gregoire states they have an agreement to help the wardens

If Ferelden's stance affected the Chantry, they wouldn't refuse the mage independence boon.

The treaties were what were used to request assistance?

[wcholcombe]

Justice IS a spirit, as is any demon, as Merril generously point out. Whatever you call them doesn't change the facts, that they seek out basically the same thing.

 

I'd prefer he stand by his beliefs against slavery. Was it justice or petty hate/jealousy? Everyone else in party disapproves this action, even Merril, who had suffered a lot of harsh treatment from Fenris. I'd also point out, that despite his support of the Circles, Fenris doesn't turn in Anders or Merril and even lashes out on Sebastian, when he suggests it.

 

 

When one hypocrisy occurs on fundamental belief, then the other would simply be a matter of time, which he hasn't given.

 

 

Justice a demon? Wrong. In the fade he is recognized as a spirit by a demon whom its opinion I value far above yours as its an in game event and yours is just an opinion. You'd think a demon would know his kind when he sees it. 

 

One hypocrisy does not make you a hypocrite although he simply hates Fenris for approving of circles and admiring them (when you take him to the gallows for the 1st time) would you prefer Anders killed Fenris?. He speaks of Justice yet does not exclude himself from it as people who he killed in Chantry deserve Justice as well therefore he is ready to face Justice, however Hakwe sees it fit. Backstabd, help to save mages, kill mages.

 

Next?

 

Edit: I'm not justifying Anders's approval of fenris's slavery, just mentioning why he approved.

Uh oh... The dalish and the mages are arguing, this can't be good. Lob you better straighten this out

[EmissaryofLies]

And now you are arguing their can be no compromise really? Both Sides have their stances and both have arguments for them, If there can be no compromise then it falls to the individual to pick a side and determine the best course. Just odd that you would find some sanity to a nutter who brought the world to the brink of war is all.

 

Possibly murdering templars, is just that. Possible. But I understand how such an event would look. Good thing he's possibly throwing his life away to fight the darkspawn, both in the joining ritual and in actually fighting them. There's no half-steppin' to the wardens. The Chantry should have let him be. Their need for control has been their undoing. As a matter of fact, maybe the Qunari should them how it's done and convert them for starters.

 

And no I am not arguing that, though I can understand and empathize with such a position. A position that I will gladly champion if compromise and reformation end up even appearing like the status quo. But yes I can understand why Adrian wanted an all or nothing confrontation. A lifetime in the circle can do that to even the most docile mages, like Bethany in the mage ending of DA II.

[Lulupab]

Justice IS a spirit, as is any demon, as Merril generously point out. Whatever you call them doesn't change the facts, that they seek out basically the same thing.
 
I'd prefer he stand by his beliefs against slavery. Was it justice or petty hate/jealousy? Everyone else in party disapproves this action, even Merril, who had suffered a lot of harsh treatment from Fenris. I'd also point out, that despite his support of the Circles, Fenris doesn't turn in Anders or Merril and even lashes out on Sebastian, when he suggests it.
 
 
When one hypocrisy occurs on fundamental belief, then the other would simply be a matter of time, which he hasn't given.

 
Merril's word is irrelevant in that context. Demons always call other "evil spirits" demons. And they always call the "good spirits" spirits. If it was the Dalish camp then yes spirits can called both demon and spirit. In the fade there is a clear definition and difference between the two. Justice calls Torpor a demonic monster while Torpor calls Justice tiresome spirit. Its obvious really.
 
Also this:
 

 Its worth to notice however that its Hawke who is doing the act, Anders is just liking it cause he hates Fenris. There are people we'd like to see burn but would never do it ourself. It does not criminalize us in anyway. Hawke is the true evil here not Anders.
 
Just like many other reactions, Anders's approval of selling Fenris is specific to an evil Hawke. There are many events that only one type of personality or choice can see and generally rest of options don't happen in that game as only one can be chosen. It all depends on the player just like romances (playersexual).

[Master Warder Z_]

??  what did I say was speculation?

 

I speculated that the templars were rogue because it would be a violation the treaty to go after a GW Mage.

Gregoire states they have an agreement to help the wardens

If Ferelden's stance affected the Chantry, they wouldn't refuse the mage independence boon.

The treaties were what were used to request assistance?

 

A Treaty that may or may not exist.

 

Gregoire stated that he would pledge his templars to aid the Wardens if they resolved the towers difficulties. (Just did a pro templar run through DAO just a few days ago) From his comments there was no prior relationship between the factions given he was acting in his own capacity as Knight Commander to pledge he and his men to the Wardens due to him still not having heard back from the Grand Cleric.

 

According to several Templars and Chantry Officials they question the Monarchies right to do just that ironically enough (Including Meredith)

 

There was no treaty for the Templar as previously mentioned, it was for the Mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

A lifetime in the circle can do that to even the most docile mages, like Bethany in the mage ending of DA II.

 

I know the rest of it was important and i will get it to as soon as possible but this first.

 

._. She was in Kirkwall's circle possible for six to seven years.

 

Hardly a lifetime.

 

Also if you side with the Templars, She can acknowledge that the flag the templars fight with may be correct given that the city was brought low by a Mage.

 

Just saying.

[The Baconer]

A Harrowing maintains you can resist demonic influence and possession, it doesn't prevent you from "dabbling" in stuff best left forbidden.

 

Relationships? That seems like a rather futile thing to try and enforce, assuming it's actually forbidden.

 

Hrm given that Tranquil only serve by choice and maintain free will wouldn't any relationship be consequential at least to a degree? Point being, given you maintain free will, if agreeing to intercourse still requires consent, it would therefore not be rape no?

 

Maintaining free will doesn't mean they can't be coerced.

[EmissaryofLies]

Anyway to another point.

 

Hrm given that Tranquil only serve by choice and maintain free will wouldn't any relationship be consequential at least to a degree? Point being, given you maintain free will, if agreeing to intercourse still requires consent, it would therefore not be rape no?

 

What?

[Lulupab]

Considering the Grey Wardens' predate the Chantry and so do the agreements, and the templars in DAO do nothing to grey warden apostates nor does the chantry at ostagar go after them and that the circle has an agreement that the grey wardens can conscript one mage from the tower at a time, yeah I think the Chantry/Templars by and large respect it.

 

Well as far as we saw Grey Warden mages are openly allowed to use blood magic against darkspawn.

[Master Warder Z_]

1.

 

But it fits the description of slavery.

 

That´s excactly what I am talking about. You don´t value the goals you claim to value. 

 

It really doesn't.

 

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.  

 

Mages are treated as a Danger and forced to be contained and otherwise lives within said containment.

 

And  i don't?

 

I seem to be arguing for them, and whom are you to say what i should feel, how i should feel it and how i should express it?

 

I'm Kami after all, not you.