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[EmissaryofLies]

I know the rest of it was important and i will get it to as soon as possible but this first.

 

._. She was in Kirkwall's circle possible for six to seven years.

 

Hardly a lifetime.

 

Also if you side with the Templars, She can acknowledge that the flag the templars fight with may be correct given that the city was brought low by a Mage.

 

Just saying.

 

I was speaking of Adrian.

 

She also notes that she didn't believe the circle to be so bad, it wasn't until she lived there herself that she understood why her parents had sacrificed everything to keep her away from it, if one sides with the mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

Relationships? That seems like a rather futile thing to try and enforce, assuming it's actually forbidden.

 

 

Maintaining free will doesn't mean they can't be coerced.

 

I actually meant demonolgy and such.

 

The same could be said for those with full faculties, my point is this.

 

We don't know the details and Tranquils aren't merely walking, obeying automatons despite what folks like anders would say.

[renfrees]

 
Also this:
 

So Anders is stripped of all responsibility because it isn't him doing the actual act? You justify him going against his fundamental belief, as someone pointed out, by his hatred for single person? Well, that's nice to know he isn't the only one being hypocrite.

[wcholcombe]

What?

In Asunder a Tranquil tells Evangeline that all tranquil have free will. 

[Master Warder Z_]

She also notes that she didn't believe the circle to be so bad, it wasn't until she lived there herself that she understood why her parents had sacrificed everything to keep her away from it, if one sides with the mages.

 

Huh...So i guess PC perspective makes the Sibling Mirror it, Who knew.

 

Still i thought it was sort endearing having a Mage fight for the Templars.

[LobselVith8]

Uh oh... The dalish and the mages are arguing, this can't be good. Lob you better straighten this out

 

It's an issue of cultural and religious differences. Merrill doesn't see a distinction because all spirits are dangerous, so despite their inherently different natures (as when she points out that Torpor is a creature of Sloth), she doesn't think any spirits are beneficial. This is further noted in WoT, in addressing the Dalish avoid any schools of magic that involve spirits because they view them all as dangerous.

 

Anders, in contrast, is religiously and culturally Andrastian, so he does think there are beneficial spirits, and believes in the teachings of the Chantry that they are the First Children of the Maker.

[wcholcombe]

It's an issue of cultural and religious differences. Merrill doesn't see a distinction because all spirits are dangerous, so despite their inherently different natures (as when she points out that Torpor is a creature of Sloth), she doesn't think any spirits are beneficial. This is further noted in WoT, in addressing the Dalish avoid any schools of magic that involve spirits because they view them all as dangerous.

 

Anders, in contrast, is religiously and culturally Andrastian, so he does think there are beneficial spirits, and believes in the teachings of the Chantry that they are the First Children of the Maker.

I am quite aware of your stance on that Lob, I was just making a joke about a rift in the Mage Dalish Coalition

[Grieving Natashina]

Er, Lob, I have to correct you there.

 

Merrill thinks that all spirits can be beneficial, hence her dealings with the demons.  She does not think any of the spirits are safe, and she does believe they are all dangerous.

[Master Warder Z_]

I am quite aware of your stance on that Lob, I was just making a joke about a rift in the Mage Dalish Coalition

 

Trouble in Paradise?

 

[Master Warder Z_]

Er, Lob, I have to correct you there.

 

Merrill thinks that all spirits can be beneficial, hence her dealings with the demons.  She does not think any of the spirits are safe, and she does believe they are all dangerous.

 

Dang it!

 

You beat me to it!

 

I was looking forward to pointing out how she repeatedly dealt with Demons while at the same time harping on about how Demons were dangerous.

[The Baconer]

I actually meant demonolgy and such.

 

Oh... well the second Tranquil in the video was subjected to the Rite for being involved in a romantic relationship with another mage. While you're right that we don't know what the first mage could have done to be sentenced... We do know that she happens to be female, and Alrik was one who placed the order.

 

The same could be said for those with full faculties(...)

 

Right, and most people would call that rape.

[EmissaryofLies]

In Asunder a Tranquil tells Evangeline that all tranquil have free will. 

 

I know exactly what he said, I just cannot believe that he actually said it. The ones who we've seen come back from tranquility beg for death rather than be tranquil. Alrik illegally tranquilled mages. Metaphorically speaking he drugged that woman to a point where she would only do what she was told by Alrik and that makes it "consentual".

 

It's like saying the Sharon Tate murder was copasetic because Manson had brainwashed those people so severely.

 

 

The entire "point" is repugnant and monstrous.

[Lulupab]

So Anders is stripped of all responsibility because it isn't him doing the actual act? You justify him going against his fundamental belief, as someone pointed out, by his hatred for single person? Well, that's nice to know he isn't the only one being hypocrite.

 

Not all responsibility but from most of it, 90% of it seems about fine. He chooses to thrive on suffering of someone he hates and he is not the one inflicting the suffering. The fundamental belief becomes irrelevant here, he just wants to see him suffer, the way he suffers does not matter to him in tiniest ways.

[Master Warder Z_]

Right, and most people would call that rape.

 

I would be among them, I'm just pointing out that if the Tranquil gave consent, it wouldn't be.

[LobselVith8]

 
Merril's word is irrelevant in that context. Demons always call other "evil spirits" demons. And they always call the "good spirits" spirits. If it was the Dalish camp then yes spirits can called both demon and spirit. In the fade there is a clear definition and difference between the two. Justice calls Torpor a demonic monster while Torpor calls Justice tiresome spirit. Its obvious really.
 
Also this:
 

 

As Justice points out, the denizens of the Fade are influenced by mortals. The distinctions held by Andrastians are shared by some of them, like Justice, who doesn't even recognize what the Dalish elves are, and requires the Warden-Commander to explain it to him in the Wending Woods.

 

That said, Justice always had a fairly rigid view of justice in Amaranthine, so I don't think he really changed as much as Anders thinks. I do think being in a symbiotic relationship with Anders is quite different than possessing Kristoff's corpse, so it does lead to some very awkward situations, like with Ella.

 

I think Anders might benefit from speaking with the seers of Rivain, who have been said to commune (and sometimes merge) with spirits in a tradition that dates back to over a millennia.

[Grieving Natashina]

@Z Demons are dangerous, she was right, but she was also right that they were useful.  She also felt she could handle herself and I'd say she did.  Whether or not you say she did is up to you.  Personally, I think any blood mage that spends years as one without hurting anyone or turning into an abomination is doing something right.  <insert how the demon wanted the Keeper and used Merrill to do it>  

 

I know you'd disagree with me on that Z and I'm not going to start that debate here.  We've got an elf thread open if I feel like digging into that can of worms with you.

 

Anyhow, carry on.  Ah, I see rape has come up again.  Always a toe-tapping topic, that.

 

 I think I need my next round of coffee...

[Master Warder Z_]

I know exactly what he said, I just cannot believe that he actually said it. The ones who we've seen come back from tranquility beg for death rather than be tranquil. Alrik illegally tranquilled mages. Metaphorically speaking he drugged that woman to a point where she would only do what she was told by Alrik and that makes it "consentual".

 

It's like saying the Sharon Tate murder was copasetic because Manson had brainwashed those people so severely.

 

 

The entire "point" is repugnant and monstrous.

 

Because of an emotional imbalance that prevents them from being objective about the experience and technically the one tranquil was murdered, only the murderer claims he begged to die rather then go back to being it. And that's hardly objective to me.

 

I don't understand the comparison given Tranquility is far sight better then death.

 

And that's debatable, i obviously disagree.

[wcholcombe]

Not all responsibility but from most of it, 90% of it seems about fine. He chooses to thrive on suffering of someone he hates and he is not the one inflicting the suffering. The fundamental belief becomes irrelevant here, he just wants to see him suffer, the way he suffers does not matter to him in tiniest ways.

Actually I would argue with this. If he is opposed to what he sees as slavery of mages and the abuses they face when they have no capacity for redress, it may not be hypocritical of him to take pleasure in someone being sold into slavery, but it is hypocritical of him to be ok with someone else being subjected to something he feels is so horrible to do to mages.

 

Not saying the mages are slaves, but Anders certainly views them as.

[Veruin]

Considering tranquil get a sudden influx of emotions when they "return", I want to see the opinion of one that's had time to compose themselves.

[renfrees]

I am quite aware of your stance on that Lob, I was just making a joke about a rift in the Mage Dalish Coalition

That's incorrect. While i'm strongly pro-Elf, i am not particularly pro-Dalish and certainly not pro-Mage.

 

I'd also like to point out, that demons were also Maker's First Children in Andrastian faith, the same as the spirits, just feasting on different emotions.

http://dragonage.wik..._First_Children

[Master Warder Z_]

@Z Demons are dangerous, she was right, but she was also right that they were useful.  She also felt she could handle herself and I'd say she did.  Whether or not you say she did is up to you.  Personally, I think any blood mage that spends years as one without hurting anyone or turning into an abomination is doing something right.  <insert how the demon wanted the Keeper and used Merrill to do it>  

I know you'd disagree with me on that Z and I'm not going to start that debate here.  We've got an elf thread open if I feel like digging into that can of worms with you. 

 

Anyhow, carry on.  Ah, I see rape has come up again.  Always a toe-tapping topic, that.

 

 I think I need my next round of coffee...

 

Fair enough, and i don't see much need to rehash that point, We both disagree i obviously think all blood magic should be discouraged and using it is blatant folly.

 

And i know right? Here i am trying to defend probably the second biggest sleeze ball of a templar since Karras against rape charges    I should look up Koby's lawyer and see if he has any pointers.

 

And i'd like coffee as well but alas its mid afternoon here so i am just sticking with water or tea.

[LobselVith8]

Er, Lob, I have to correct you there.

 

Merrill thinks that all spirits can be beneficial, hence her dealings with the demons.  She does not think any of the spirits are safe, and she does believe they are all dangerous.

 

That's not quite what I'm addressing. I'm talking about the distinction between "good" and "bad" spirits, which is a view an Andrastian like Anders genuinely believes in. While Merrill thinks that you can learn something from a spirit, she cautions that they are dangerous. Learning information from the Profane Abomination and Torpor isn't quite the same thing as thinking there's an ethical divide between 'Spirits' and 'Demons' of the Fade.

[Master Warder Z_]

Considering tranquil get a sudden influx of emotions when they "return", I want to see the opinion of one that's had time to compose themselves.

 

Agreed, if they claim it still to be a horror so be it.

 

But i want an objective assessment.

[The Baconer]

I would be among them, I'm just pointing out that if the Tranquil gave consent, it wouldn't be.

 

Consent under what pretense?

[Lulupab]

Actually I would argue with this. If he is opposed to what he sees as slavery of mages and the abuses they face when they have no capacity for redress, it may not be hypocritical of him to take pleasure in someone being sold into slavery, but it is hypocritical of him to be ok with someone else being subjected to something he feels is so horrible to do to mages.

 

Not saying the mages are slaves, but Anders certainly views them as.

 

Its just an act of hate. If Hawke tortured Fenris personally he would have approved too. I don' think the method was important for Anders so long as fenris suffered in any way possible. That's how I see it anyway.