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[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

More like the Energizer bunny.

I was not aware he got tail.  Now the sunglasses make sense.

He is rather electrifying.

[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

I always considered the Circle to have more-or-less the same logic behind it as the “war on drugs” in the USA. By identifying a threat and making the general populous terrified of it with propaganda, you can wield almost unlimited power at their expense as long as they believe that you’re keeping them safe from the bogey-man.

The Templars round up anyone with the potential for magic and put them into a concentration camp. Each is made to undergo a test and if they fail, they’re lobotomized and made into a docile slave. Those who refuse, or run away, are killed. It’s a pogrom, plain and simple, and it exists to make people believe that they need the Chantry to protect them so that the Chantry can expand its power.

The Chantry’s power grows on two fronts through the Circle pogrom. First, the populous and the secular authorities are made to fear that there might be an abomination hiding under the bed, so the Templars are allowed to do whatever they want to provided they claim that it is necessary to round up the abominable. This also provides the justification for the Chantry to keep the Templar Order as a standing army wherever it pleases, often with the result that the populous turns to the Templars for help with purely mundane matters, leading to their assumption of secular authority (like in Kirkwall, or Lothering.)

The second way in which the Chantry’s power grows is that the Circle is a powerful weapon in its own right. If the only sanctioned use of magic is within the Circle, and the Circle is controlled by the Chantry, then the Chantry is holding the biggest gun on the battlefield. You don’t suppose that might be one of the reasons that non-sanctioned magic users are so vigorously hunted down, do you? It’s not safety, it’s arms control.

The Chantry permits the Circle to train mages in approved (useful for Chantry purposes) schools of magic, and forbids all others. Blood magic is strictly taboo because it would allow a mage to bypass the need for lyrium, the flow of which the Chantry strictly controls. Other schools of magic, like shape shifting, are prohibited because they do not serve the Chantry’s objectives. Also, a shape shifter is harder to hunt down by the Templars.

Of course, for the pogrom to remain effective for almost 1,000 years requires the occasional display to keep the ignorant masses (you should know who you are, but almost certainly don’t) fearful and compliant. That part’s easy. Treat someone like a plague carrier, cage them like an animal, strip them of any and all freedoms, and inevitably someone will resist. Send the Templars to hunt them, preferably driving them into a populated area (witnesses are useful.) Make a big show of cornering the runner, and one of two things will happen: either the Templars capture the mage to be drug away in chains, making the “sheeple” feel safe, or the mage turns in desperation to blood magic to try to escape or, as a last alternative, to take out as many Templar as possible before death’s last caress. This is pure money for the Chantry, because seeing a maleficar fight for survival is exactly the sort of thing that will keep the unwashed masses terrified—not of the Templars that caused the problem, but of the mages they believe are to blame. As these stories are spread by word of mouth and become more horrible with each retelling, the demand for even more Templars will rise in a chorus most pleasing to the Chantry’s ear.

Do you actually believe what is within that overstuffed tangent?

Defense of Blood Magic, Comparing Tranqulity to Having bits of your brain drilled out, Claiming the circles in essence are a slave army...Pfft.

I'd be the first to acknowledge the current and previous (all the way to the begining) Way the Chantry has been operated and run, and its Numerous failings that fall squarely at its past and previous leadership; But to place this into the scope of Feudalistic Thedosian Society.

I'd Given the Scarcity of Exalted Marches (By the present date in DA there have been less then ten called) And while you have rogue mages and even circles leading assistance in regional conflicts this is done often with out Chantry oversight in cases that can be examined such as the Fifth Blight, Fereldan Civil War, Etc. Does negate the entire "Arms Agrument" Considering that while certainly the circles are useful tools in the time of war you wouldn't get much use out of them with out draining considerable talent and then they would be relucant to send more if said resources were killed.

Point being, While Yes Mages are wonderful to have on a battlefield, The Rarity of said assets (at least those schooled in the art of war magics to the degree they would be useful on a field of battle) works against them in most cases, literally the only time the Chantry has unleashed the circles full blast in even vaguely recent times was against the Qunari and before that well...It was centuries and it was against the Imperium, The Imperium and the Imperium.

Truely if you look at the history of the realm the entire notion of the Chantry controlling the largest gun and using it as a method of obtaining favors and wealth, While certainly true enough in the scope of enchantment and other magical services it fall shorts when you compare them to a direct weapon considering that by the time the Chantry has rallied the circles together you tend to have alliances of Nations combating said threat as well regardless.

I'd are the defense of blood magic comes it magically not being a corruptive and destructive form of magic with its basis and source being from hardly beign fade constructs right? Except that in DA it is exactly that, its the creature of Demons and can scarcly be taught with out them, even in the cases that it can it hardly presents a worthy field of study considering its history.

It's taboo because it has likely consumed more lives then all other schools (including primal) together. Also you know the Darkspawn, Also...Considering the Chantry supplies the circle (presumbly for discounted prices if not free considering the Chantry also takes in portions of the circles profits) i doubt they would be hurting for Lyrium regardless so that reasoning just does not appeal to me.

...I have nothing to say to the comparsion of labotamizing and tranqulity considering one is using power tools to remove pieces of brain matter and there is a sealing of mind and talent which still allows cognition and reasoning of the mind with out emotion or dreams.

I honestly think thats an utterly abhorrent way to view it and not to mention imprecise, incorrect and utterly negative way to view the ritual.

If nothing else this post reminded me that Pro Mage stancers have...Implusible notions occasionally.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes ferelden circle , baroness and every other 1000000 disasters caused by mages were meredith fault crap even first tevinter empire was her fault damn mages are so pure and perfect the embodiment of innocence they just need love it is everything templars fault!

Okay, I was fine with you not listing disasters by mages but pulling out the number one million makes me call you out on it. List me one million disasters that was caused by mages. Also, each disaster only counts as one, so no "Blight kills tens of thousands of people".

We have blight pretty much colosal disaster on world scale and we have 7 blight...
Uldred rebelion
Avernus demons
First tevinter empire add to that every veil they weaken or torn and damage they caused
Second tevinter empire and ^
Zathrian curse
Connor destruction
Baroness "experiments"
Army of harvesters
Many sealed demons in some places in thedas...
Mage-templar war
Quentin sick experiments
Tarohne and her group creating abomnations for the hell of it...
Willhelm demons experiments
Grace boyfriend army of undead and second grace insanity and kidnaping one of hawke companions...
Jowan incompetence
Blood mages in denerim
Tevinter slavers in alienage
velanna killing peoples.
Qunari mage trying summon demon army
Blood mages trying control dragons and taking over the world...
and count every other abomnation , blood mage trough history most of that examples are only in 10 year timeline

[Grieving Natashina]

Huh, I wasn't expecting to wake up and see this thread still active.

At this point, well...

[TheKomandorShepard]

TheLittleBird wrote...


Yeah, because he was only talking about Kirkwall. *Sigh*
Dude, it's magic. A power like magic has big advantages, but can also bring disaster. The templars need to apprehend and contain these disasters as much as they can. Not kill every last mage out there. 

Haha. Like firemen flooding the entire world to make fire absent.

Mages can't be contained templar never achived that as we saw neither qunari despite extreme security measures mages are like storm it can't be controled because every mage can become abomnation and even if not it can be corrupted as every human what makes it even worse because cost of that are huge.As far from what i saw damage caused by mages>>>>good thing they done outside healing and perhaps qunari wars they didn't do anything.... so they aren't worth that what they cost... 

[durasteel]

The problems in the Ferelden circle were caused by the fact that Logain, who was not an ignorant man, understood that the Circle was a potent weapon that he wanted to have in his own arsenal. He motivated Uldred to attempt to take over the Circle in Kinloch Hold with the promise of freedom from the Chantry and the Templars. It is another example of possession as a direct result of Chantry oppression.

I imagine the Rite of Annulment is more of a tool to prevent a mage circle from becoming independent of Chantry control than to prevent anything to do with demons.

[Master Warder Z_]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes ferelden circle , baroness and every other 1000000 disasters caused by mages were meredith fault crap even first tevinter empire was her fault damn mages are so pure and perfect the embodiment of innocence they just need love it is everything templars fault!

Okay, I was fine with you not listing disasters by mages but pulling out the number one million makes me call you out on it. List me one million disasters that was caused by mages. Also, each disaster only counts as one, so no "Blight kills tens of thousands of people".

We have blight pretty much colosal disaster on world scale and we have 7 blight...
Uldred rebelion
Avernus demons
First tevinter empire add to that every veil they weaken or torn and damage they caused
Second tevinter empire and ^
Zathrian curse
Connor destruction
Baroness "experiments"
Army of harvesters
Many sealed demons in some places in thedas...
Mage-templar war
Quentin sick experiments
Tarohne and her group creating abomnations for the hell of it...
Willhelm demons experiments
Grace boyfriend army of undead and second grace insanity and kidnaping one of hawke companions...
Jowan incompetence
Blood mages in denerim
Tevinter slavers in alienage
velanna killing peoples.
Qunari mage trying summon demon army
Blood mages trying control dragons and taking over the world...
and count every other abomnation , blood mage trough history most of that examples are only in 10 year timeline

And people wonder why some folks just want to toss them into prison camps and throw out the key.

[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

The problems in the Ferelden circle were caused by the fact that Logain, who was not an ignorant man, understood that the Circle was a potent weapon that he wanted to have in his own arsenal. He motivated Uldred to attempt to take over the Circle in Kinloch Hold with the promise of freedom from the Chantry and the Templars. It is another example of possession as a direct result of Chantry oppression.

I imagine the Rite of Annulment is more of a tool to prevent a mage circle from becoming independent of Chantry control than to prevent anything to do with demons.

Unless if Loghain was holding a blade to Ulred's neck and forcing him to learn Demonology i doubt the General had much to do with him getting possesed.

[Hellion Rex]

Master Warder Z wrote...
And people wonder why some folks just want to toss them into prison camps and throw out the key.

As if that wouldn't cause even more mages to go nuts.
<_<

[Master Warder Z_]

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
And people wonder why some folks just want to toss them into prison camps and throw out the key.

As if that wouldn't cause even more mages to go nuts.
<_<

Bunch of cry babies honestly.

Hence why i'd agrue just forcing them off places so far from civilization they just forget what that sort of life was like.

[SgtSteel91]

In the Mage ending Orsino talks about evacuating the Gallows to spread the news to the other Circles about the Incident. It works in the Mage ending at least because Varric talks about how mages lived to tell the tale and Asunder deals with the Kirkwall Incident.

What if the Blood Mages and demon summoning Mages fighting the Templars are those who stayed to buy time for other, possibly non-blood, Mages to flee? You only saw so many Circle Mages using Blood Magic and Demon Summoning because those were the ones who stayed to fight the Templars.

[Grieving Natashina]

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
And people wonder why some folks just want to toss them into prison camps and throw out the key.

As if that wouldn't cause even more mages to go nuts.
<_<

Bunch of cry babies honestly.

Hence why i'd agrue just forcing them off places so far from civilization they just forget what that sort of life was like.

And you honestly don't see why that would fail miserably? <_<

The big problem with some of these "solutions:" These are people, not animals, no matter how much you wish to dehumanize them.

You may now go back to your blanket statements and ugly prejudice.

[durasteel]

Master Warder Z wrote...
...
...I have nothing to say to the comparsion of labotamizing and tranqulity considering one is using power tools to remove pieces of brain matter and there is a sealing of mind and talent which still allows cognition and reasoning of the mind with out emotion or dreams.

I honestly think thats an utterly abhorrent way to view it and not to mention imprecise, incorrect and utterly negative way to view the ritual.
...

The comparison between the Rite of Tranquility and a lobotomy is not one that I thought up myself, if I remember correctly that's how David Gaider described it in a post a few years ago.

The Rite doesn't remove bits of brain tissue, but then not all lobotomies do, either. The Rite, like certain lobotomy procedures, simple scrambles parts of the brain and renders those bits inoperative. 

Every portrayal of the Tranquil in Origins and DA2 is intended to seem like a magical lobotomy. The fact that you are resisting the comparison suggests that you are the one trying to support an unreasonable position on this topic.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Starsyn wrote...


And you honestly don't see why that would fail miserably? <_<

The big problem with some of these "solutions:" These are people, not animals, no matter how much you wish to dehumanize them.

You may now go back to your blanket statements and ugly prejudice.

To be honest mages got much much more than they deserved/deserve for trobules they caused/causing in thedas and little did for it damn they live like nobles doing nothing for most of their life...

i wonder why simple peoples not choped them on piecies for making this disasters and i can't find reason...

[Master Warder Z_]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

In the Mage ending Orsino talks about evacuating the Gallows to spread the news to the other Circles about the Incident. It works in the Mage ending at least because Varric talks about how mages lived to tell the tale and Asunder deals with the Kirkwall Incident.

What if the Blood Mages and demon summoning Mages fighting the Templars are those who stayed to buy time for other, possibly non-blood, Mages to flee? You only saw so many Circle Mages using Blood Magic and Demon Summoning because those were the ones who stayed to fight the Templars.

Is this a blatant defense of summoning demons, Blood Magic and rebellion i see?

._. Apparently.

Its also pure conjecture based on the ravings on a Madman! Wonderful!

Also probably incorrect considering Meredith also stated the remainder of the Order was crossing the Harbor to the Gallows right when the fighting was kicking off, Perhaps Orsino missed that bit when he was throwing his tantrum despite the woman saying it to his face.

But considering that i doubt there was any holding measure considering well...the moment the Templars have the strength to begin the assault they do. I doubt there was much escape from that anullment.

[durasteel]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Unless if Loghain was holding a blade to Ulred's neck and forcing him to learn Demonology i doubt the General had much to do with him getting possesed.

If you paid attention, you would remember that Uldred's plan to take over the Circle went poorly from the very beginning, and that by the time the demons were summoned Uldred and his minions were fighting to survive. Summoning demons is always a desperate act, like at Soldier's Peak.

[The Hierophant]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Hence why i believe a return to the Circle system is the only sustainable system to put into place save mass executions being repeated every few years, Purges and Ghetto's or simply relocating the majority of mages to settlements/Bastions/Prison Camps to the far ends of Thedas if not beyond it.

o-o Tis an amusing notion however to think of a post war scenario in which Mages assume some semblence of life in society, Though given the DAO Epilogues and occasionally unpredictable situations emerging from seemingly benign choices i have a feeling that quite a few choices possibly done during the course of the war, especially the end game may drastically impact how Thedosian life goes on.

And if it starts resembling Tevinter 2.0 in a few years or not.

It would be interesting to see the guard's plans for demonic outbreaks and their ability to keep the death toll to a minimum, although any tracking of magical crimes like Emmeric's hunt of Quentin seems nearly impossible.

[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
...
...I have nothing to say to the comparsion of labotamizing and tranqulity considering one is using power tools to remove pieces of brain matter and there is a sealing of mind and talent which still allows cognition and reasoning of the mind with out emotion or dreams.

I honestly think thats an utterly abhorrent way to view it and not to mention imprecise, incorrect and utterly negative way to view the ritual.
...

The comparison between the Rite of Tranquility and a lobotomy is not one that I thought up myself, if I remember correctly that's how David Gaider described it in a post a few years ago.

The Rite doesn't remove bits of brain tissue, but then not all lobotomies do, either. The Rite, like certain lobotomy procedures, simple scrambles parts of the brain and renders those bits inoperative. 

Every portrayal of the Tranquil in Origins and DA2 is intended to seem like a magical lobotomy. The fact that you are resisting the comparison suggests that you are the one trying to support an unreasonable position on this topic.

Wouldn't be the first time Gaider and I disagreed on something i'd say in fact its probably about the fifth or sixth when it comes to DA.

But that said How exactly is that the truth when in fact every Tranquil is capable of acting on their own free will, Having cohrerent thought, And operating cognitive centers of the brain. A Feat most lobodamites cannot boast of. Like i said its comparing using power tools to rip out chunks of graymatter to losing talent, emotion and dreams.

So far the two that have been stripped from it have hardly been better for their expreince, espeically the tranquil given the emotional instability. Fatal Weakeness in a mage i'd agrue.

So disgusting and in my opinion utterly incorrect comparsion aside; To me? Your supporting an extreme view of the position which is far more unsustainable then my own in which you have people capable of thinking, acting and doing for themselves, rather then being a cognitively depraved vegtable.

[SgtSteel91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Is this a blatant defense of summoning demons, Blood Magic and rebellion i see?

._. Apparently.

Its also pure conjecture based on the ravings on a Madman! Wonderful!

Also probably incorrect considering Meredith also stated the remainder of the Order was crossing the Harbor to the Gallows right when the fighting was kicking off, Perhaps Orsino missed that bit when he was throwing his tantrum despite the woman saying it to his face.

But considering that i doubt there was any holding measure considering well...the moment the Templars have the strength to begin the assault they do. I doubt there was much escape from that anullment.

IDK, the epilogue for the Mage Ending says that "[Hawke] had defended the mages against a brutal injustice, and many lived to tell the tale."

[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Unless if Loghain was holding a blade to Ulred's neck and forcing him to learn Demonology i doubt the General had much to do with him getting possesed.

If you paid attention, you would remember that Uldred's plan to take over the Circle went poorly from the very beginning, and that by the time the demons were summoned Uldred and his minions were fighting to survive. Summoning demons is always a desperate act, like at Soldier's Peak.

Hardly Loghain's fault that Wynne interupted and shined a diffrent perspective of Ostagar is it?

Ulred summoned them, was overwhelmed by them and i'd hardly agrue Loghain to be the one at fault for his vanity and stupidity.

So perhaps Loghain motivated to give his agrument and sway the alignment of the circle, But that said? He didn't condone Ulred to lay armed siege and destroy the very asset he sought.

[Master Warder Z_]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Is this a blatant defense of summoning demons, Blood Magic and rebellion i see?

._. Apparently.

Its also pure conjecture based on the ravings on a Madman! Wonderful!

Also probably incorrect considering Meredith also stated the remainder of the Order was crossing the Harbor to the Gallows right when the fighting was kicking off, Perhaps Orsino missed that bit when he was throwing his tantrum despite the woman saying it to his face.

But considering that i doubt there was any holding measure considering well...the moment the Templars have the strength to begin the assault they do. I doubt there was much escape from that anullment.

IDK, the epilogue for the Mage Ending says that "[Hawke] had defended the mages against a brutal injustice, and many lived to tell the tale."

Possibly those already outside the Circle would be my guess.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Hierophant wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Hence why i believe a return to the Circle system is the only sustainable system to put into place save mass executions being repeated every few years, Purges and Ghetto's or simply relocating the majority of mages to settlements/Bastions/Prison Camps to the far ends of Thedas if not beyond it.

o-o Tis an amusing notion however to think of a post war scenario in which Mages assume some semblence of life in society, Though given the DAO Epilogues and occasionally unpredictable situations emerging from seemingly benign choices i have a feeling that quite a few choices possibly done during the course of the war, especially the end game may drastically impact how Thedosian life goes on.

And if it starts resembling Tevinter 2.0 in a few years or not.

It would be interesting to see the guard's plans for demonic outbreaks and their ability to keep the death toll to a minimum, although any tracking of magical crimes like Emmeric's hunt of Quentin seems nearly impossible.

Indeed it would have to be wrote into the very frabic of society after all.

You likely would have far heavier Templar presence across Thedas wherever mages settled and i mean far heavier, as even they likely would never stop recuirting again and i doubt they would lack for volunteers.

But that's my speculation, You cannot erase a thousand plus years of mistrust, disdain and what have you. But you can certainly prepare for the aftermath of it. One of the few decent things White Thedas got from the Chantry was an mistrustful gaze to Magic.

[SgtSteel91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Possibly those already outside the Circle would be my guess.

Different strokes, I guess.

But I have another question: do you believe there is an uneven presentation of the mage-templar conflict? I'd like to believe that this conflcit is a case of "grey vs grey" where both sides have equal merits and cons. But, to me at least, you see the templars in the absolute right and see no merit in why others would side with the mages.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 18 février 2014 - 12:16 .

[durasteel]

Master Warder Z wrote...
...
But that said How exactly is that the truth when in fact every Tranquil is capable of acting on their own free will, Having cohrerent thought, And operating cognitive centers of the brain. A Feat most lobodamites cannot boast of. Like i said its comparing using power tools to rip out chunks of graymatter to losing talent, emotion and dreams.

So far the two that have been stripped from it have hardly been better for their expreince, espeically the tranquil given the emotional instability. Fatal Weakeness in a mage i'd agrue.

So disgusting and in my opinion utterly incorrect comparsion aside; To me? Your supporting an extreme view of the position which is far more unsustainable then my own in which you have people capable of thinking, acting and doing for themselves, rather then being a cognitively depraved vegtable.

The Tranquil have no free will. They are given tasks, and they perform them without argument. They don't care about anything, even whether they live or die.

The one person we see recieve a temporary reprieve begs for death rather than a return to life as a zombie.

You claim disgust at my comparison of Tranquility to a lobotomy. I can only hope that you are being ironic intentionally as you pair that assertion with a defense bordering upon advocacy for the disgusting practice of the Rite itself.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Starsyn wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
And people wonder why some folks just want to toss them into prison camps and throw out the key.

As if that wouldn't cause even more mages to go nuts.
<_<

Bunch of cry babies honestly.

Hence why i'd agrue just forcing them off places so far from civilization they just forget what that sort of life was like.

And you honestly don't see why that would fail miserably? <_<

The big problem with some of these "solutions:" These are people, not animals, no matter how much you wish to dehumanize them.

You may now go back to your blanket statements and ugly prejudice.

Yeah, if there is one thing that will stop mages from going insane, it will be locking them all up in towers in the middle of nowhere. Because you know, it's not like we have evidence that people being put in solitary conditions end up doing things like talking to the voices in their head and developing hatred for those that put them there.