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[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
...
But that said How exactly is that the truth when in fact every Tranquil is capable of acting on their own free will, Having cohrerent thought, And operating cognitive centers of the brain. A Feat most lobodamites cannot boast of. Like i said its comparing using power tools to rip out chunks of graymatter to losing talent, emotion and dreams.

So far the two that have been stripped from it have hardly been better for their expreince, espeically the tranquil given the emotional instability. Fatal Weakeness in a mage i'd agrue.

So disgusting and in my opinion utterly incorrect comparsion aside; To me? Your supporting an extreme view of the position which is far more unsustainable then my own in which you have people capable of thinking, acting and doing for themselves, rather then being a cognitively depraved vegtable.

The Tranquil have no free will. They are given tasks, and they perform them without argument. They don't care about anything, even whether they live or die.

The one person we see recieve a temporary reprieve begs for death rather than a return to life as a zombie.

You claim disgust at my comparison of Tranquility to a lobotomy. I can only hope that you are being ironic intentionally as you pair that assertion with a defense bordering upon advocacy for the disgusting practice of the Rite itself.

Erm no Asunder proved quite point blank that the Tranquil serve by choice, Because its familar and because they can glean enjoy.ment from it.

He was a whiny crybaby who got his wish a scant moment later. Also the Later Tranquil confirms why he was such a whiny crybaby, the return of emotion is like a floodgate, it overwhelms them in sporadic fits. Had he survived he would have likely realized as much, had he not returned to the state of tranquility.

The Rite it self is a perfect method of punishment and salavation, it can prevent the weak from falling pray to Demons, A punishment to Criminals and a method of obtaining valuable enchanters. And i do Advocate for the continue usage of the rite.

Apologies for not clearing that up! 

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
And people wonder why some folks just want to toss them into prison camps and throw out the key.

As if that wouldn't cause even more mages to go nuts.
<_<

Bunch of cry babies honestly.

Hence why i'd agrue just forcing them off places so far from civilization they just forget what that sort of life was like.

And you honestly don't see why that would fail miserably? <_<

The big problem with some of these "solutions:" These are people, not animals, no matter how much you wish to dehumanize them.

You may now go back to your blanket statements and ugly prejudice.

Yeah, if there is one thing that will stop mages from going insane, it will be locking them all up in towers in the middle of nowhere. Because you know, it's not like we have evidence that people being put in solitary conditions end up doing things like talking to the voices in their head and developing hatred for those that put them there.

...That was actually sort of the plan really.

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes ferelden circle , baroness and every other 1000000 disasters caused by mages were meredith fault crap even first tevinter empire was her fault damn mages are so pure and perfect the embodiment of innocence they just need love it is everything templars fault!

Okay, I was fine with you not listing disasters by mages but pulling out the number one million makes me call you out on it. List me one million disasters that was caused by mages. Also, each disaster only counts as one, so no "Blight kills tens of thousands of people".

We have blight pretty much colosal disaster on world scale and we have 7 blight...
Uldred rebelion
Avernus demons
First tevinter empire add to that every veil they weaken or torn and damage they caused
Second tevinter empire and ^
Zathrian curse
Connor destruction
Baroness "experiments"
Army of harvesters
Many sealed demons in some places in thedas...
Mage-templar war
Quentin sick experiments
Tarohne and her group creating abomnations for the hell of it...
Willhelm demons experiments
Grace boyfriend army of undead and second grace insanity and kidnaping one of hawke companions...
Jowan incompetence
Blood mages in denerim
Tevinter slavers in alienage
velanna killing peoples.
Qunari mage trying summon demon army
Blood mages trying control dragons and taking over the world...
and count every other abomnation , blood mage trough history most of that examples are only in 10 year timeline

So that's 25 confirmed(would be 27 but 6th and 7th Blight haven't happened yet so don't count) and an unknown value of abomination events, though simple an abomination killing someone I don't count as a disaster but I'll let it slide. That means we need 999,975 abomination cases, not counting the ones you already used, to make one million. But wait, mages are extremely rare, like 1% of the population according to you. That means for that many events to occur, Thedas would have needed a population of 99,997,500 nonmages. In that era, those numbers didn't even exist. 

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes ferelden circle , baroness and every other 1000000 disasters caused by mages were meredith fault crap even first tevinter empire was her fault damn mages are so pure and perfect the embodiment of innocence they just need love it is everything templars fault!

Okay, I was fine with you not listing disasters by mages but pulling out the number one million makes me call you out on it. List me one million disasters that was caused by mages. Also, each disaster only counts as one, so no "Blight kills tens of thousands of people".

We have blight pretty much colosal disaster on world scale and we have 7 blight...
Uldred rebelion
Avernus demons
First tevinter empire add to that every veil they weaken or torn and damage they caused
Second tevinter empire and ^
Zathrian curse
Connor destruction
Baroness "experiments"
Army of harvesters
Many sealed demons in some places in thedas...
Mage-templar war
Quentin sick experiments
Tarohne and her group creating abomnations for the hell of it...
Willhelm demons experiments
Grace boyfriend army of undead and second grace insanity and kidnaping one of hawke companions...
Jowan incompetence
Blood mages in denerim
Tevinter slavers in alienage
velanna killing peoples.
Qunari mage trying summon demon army
Blood mages trying control dragons and taking over the world...
and count every other abomnation , blood mage trough history most of that examples are only in 10 year timeline

So that's 25 confirmed(would be 27 but 6th and 7th Blight haven't happened yet so don't count) and an unknown value of abomination events, though simple an abomination killing someone I don't count as a disaster but I'll let it slide. That means we need 999,975 abomination cases, not counting the ones you already used, to make one million. But wait, mages are extremely rare, like 1% of the population according to you. That means for that many events to occur, Thedas would have needed a population of 99,997,500 nonmages. In that era, those numbers didn't even exist. 

You want a literal million cases?

I missed the prior statements but i find it amusing.

[Grieving Natashina]

I don't think I've addressed the OP yet, so I'll take the time to do so here.

You bet I think there is uneven representation among both mages and templars. Kirkwall really brought out the absolute worst in both factions. In Origins, while I feel it was a little more balanced, we didn't spend enough time with the Templars to really to get know them.

I'm hoping we'll see more of the middle ground between the two groups. Not all mages are "blood mages within inches of being possessed" and not all templars are "crazed zealots that think all mages need to die." I'm really hoping we'll see more of a grey area in Inquisition.

My signature sums it up. I don't hate mages or templars, but I really am sick of so many assuming that their way is the only right way. By giving us, the player, some more information, it might be easier to really learn about both sides.

Personally, I also think that Templars in many ways are like the mages. Many Templars are unwanted children that get ditched at the Chantry and forced to either become brothers or Templars. They can't have families or homes of their own. Other than fellow Templars, the only company they are allowed to have are people that the Templars have been trained their whole lives to fear. Templars have more freedom of movement, but to assume that they have a lot of freedom in their actions is rather silly. I'm sure there has been Templars throughout the time of the Chantry that did not want things to be the way the were. To kill or Tranquil possible friends because they failed their Harrowing.

I'm not crying about the plight of the Templars, but both sides haven't had much choice in their lives. Now that the Circles have been largely disbanded, maybe there is a chance for Mages and Templars to work together. We'll see, but I do know we can't go forward with assumptions until we see the next game.

Modifié par Starsyn, 18 février 2014 - 12:28 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
...
But that said How exactly is that the truth when in fact every Tranquil is capable of acting on their own free will, Having cohrerent thought, And operating cognitive centers of the brain. A Feat most lobodamites cannot boast of. Like i said its comparing using power tools to rip out chunks of graymatter to losing talent, emotion and dreams.

So far the two that have been stripped from it have hardly been better for their expreince, espeically the tranquil given the emotional instability. Fatal Weakeness in a mage i'd agrue.

So disgusting and in my opinion utterly incorrect comparsion aside; To me? Your supporting an extreme view of the position which is far more unsustainable then my own in which you have people capable of thinking, acting and doing for themselves, rather then being a cognitively depraved vegtable.

The Tranquil have no free will. They are given tasks, and they perform them without argument. They don't care about anything, even whether they live or die.

The one person we see recieve a temporary reprieve begs for death rather than a return to life as a zombie.

You claim disgust at my comparison of Tranquility to a lobotomy. I can only hope that you are being ironic intentionally as you pair that assertion with a defense bordering upon advocacy for the disgusting practice of the Rite itself.

Tranquil have free will. They just have no emotions anymore. 

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 18 février 2014 - 12:27 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

You want a literal million cases?

I missed the prior statements but i find it amusing.

Well, TKS keeps bringing it up as evidence, so yes I do.

[durasteel]

Master Warder Z wrote...
...That was actually sort of the plan really.

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

I see now what you're doing, and I will try not to make the mistake of taking you seriously again.

[Grieving Natashina]

LSD is right. There is Tranquil during the Broken Tower that mention that they did not wish to die.

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

You want a literal million cases?

I missed the prior statements but i find it amusing.

Well, TKS keeps bringing it up as evidence, so yes I do.

What evidence?

Every situation he mentioned has occured or likely will occur in the future.

All he stated was everything was Meredith's fault in sacrasm.

.-. I wouldn't call taking some one literal at their word "evidence" personally. Just me though.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
And people wonder why some folks just want to toss them into prison camps and throw out the key.

As if that wouldn't cause even more mages to go nuts.
<_<

Bunch of cry babies honestly.

Hence why i'd agrue just forcing them off places so far from civilization they just forget what that sort of life was like.

And you honestly don't see why that would fail miserably? <_<

The big problem with some of these "solutions:" These are people, not animals, no matter how much you wish to dehumanize them.

You may now go back to your blanket statements and ugly prejudice.

Yeah, if there is one thing that will stop mages from going insane, it will be locking them all up in towers in the middle of nowhere. Because you know, it's not like we have evidence that people being put in solitary conditions end up doing things like talking to the voices in their head and developing hatred for those that put them there.

...That was actually sort of the plan really.

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

Oops, meant to have  at the end to show I was finding the situation humerous. Yes, I can see the Templar side in that and it makes sense, but at the same time mages are people and deserve to be treated as such. Locking them in the middle of nowhere with no contact with the outside world would only make them more likely to turn to those offering to help them escape.

[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
...That was actually sort of the plan really.

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

I see now what you're doing, and I will try not to make the mistake of taking you seriously again.

Stopped taking you serious the moment you compared the Circle to Slavery Chum 

[The Baconer]

Master Warder Z wrote...

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

Who's going to build a tower in the middle of the sea?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

You want a literal million cases?

I missed the prior statements but i find it amusing.

Well, TKS keeps bringing it up as evidence, so yes I do.

What evidence?

Every situation he mentioned has occured or likely will occur in the future.

All he stated was everything was Meredith's fault in sacrasm.

.-. I wouldn't call taking some one literal at their word "evidence" personally. Just me though.

In various topics, he keeps bringing up how mages have caused innumeral disasters or tragedies, and being completely serious about it. So I figured now was the time to call him out on it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Starsyn wrote...

LDS is right. There is Tranquil during the Broken Tower that mention that they did not wish to die.

Fixed it for you.

[durasteel]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Tranquil have free will. They just have no emotions anymore. 

If the Tranquil had free will, you would see some of them leading lives of their own choice. One might make a logical determination that building a road, farming, etc. was something that needed to be done, and go do it. Instead, the Tranquil are all given jobs by the Chantry that they do until they die. They do not choose any part of their lives. They're zombie slaves, and the fact that they retain logical cognitive ability makes them useful slaves, not free people.

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...
And people wonder why some folks just want to toss them into prison camps and throw out the key.

As if that wouldn't cause even more mages to go nuts.
<_<

Bunch of cry babies honestly.

Hence why i'd agrue just forcing them off places so far from civilization they just forget what that sort of life was like.

And you honestly don't see why that would fail miserably? <_<

The big problem with some of these "solutions:" These are people, not animals, no matter how much you wish to dehumanize them.

You may now go back to your blanket statements and ugly prejudice.

Yeah, if there is one thing that will stop mages from going insane, it will be locking them all up in towers in the middle of nowhere. Because you know, it's not like we have evidence that people being put in solitary conditions end up doing things like talking to the voices in their head and developing hatred for those that put them there.

...That was actually sort of the plan really.

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

Oops, meant to have  at the end to show I was finding the situation humerous. Yes, I can see the Templar side in that and it makes sense, but at the same time mages are people and deserve to be treated as such. Locking them in the middle of nowhere with no contact with the outside world would only make them more likely to turn to those offering to help them escape.

I suppose there is truth in that, And note that was pretty much written in jest given i have stated repeatedly i want a return of the Circle System after the Apporiate people have their date with the Executioners block. (Note there would be more templars on the list had Hawke not made a habit of killing ones that needed to be removed already)

But that said even when i wrote it in Jest, I took the thought seriously for a moment but eventually abandoned it considering you likely would need to hire or employ military escorts on the entire convoy and this likely would only work if you were moving most of the confirmed mages in existance at a singular time.

The entire process would be an immense drain on resources, personal and time and ultimately it would be ineffective given how mages are born into the world from non mages as well.

[Grieving Natashina]

The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

Who's going to build a tower in the middle of the sea?

The Qunari, if it fit their precious Qun.  Otherwise, the only other one would be Tevinter and it wouldn't exactly be a Circle.  

Also, Bacon, I am pro-Mage, pro-Templar and a moderate.  I believe in trying having Templars and the Mages work together.  I don't agree with the Chantry did with the Circles.  It just sounds like a solution that was supposed to be temporary, but the Chantry no longer felt like trying to work with the mages towards an equal solution.  It was Chantry laziness in this regard that led to the events of Kirkwall.  

I still stand by that thanks to the very nature of the Circle solution, it would have blown up sooner or later.  It just happened to be sooner, thanks to one angry abomination that was fed up that started the War.

I just wanted to clear that up. 

[Master Warder Z_]

The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

Who's going to build a tower in the middle of the sea?

Some one who can use Chibaku Tensei to rearrange the sea floor and form a land mass?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

durasteel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Tranquil have free will. They just have no emotions anymore. 

If the Tranquil had free will, you would see some of them leading lives of their own choice. One might make a logical determination that building a road, farming, etc. was something that needed to be done, and go do it. Instead, the Tranquil are all given jobs by the Chantry that they do until they die. They do not choose any part of their lives. They're zombie slaves, and the fact that they retain logical cognitive ability makes them useful slaves, not free people.

Some do. You don't see it ingame, but once a mage is made Tranquil they are free to leave the Circle since they aren't mages anymore. As for being logical, that's one reason most stay. Other people see them with unease while the Chantry respects them and gives them jobs enchanting, so it is only logical to stay with the people who will most likely help you. It's kind of like an ultimate form of Stockholm Syndrone, where the Tranquil need the Chantry and the Chantry need the Tranquil.

[Master Warder Z_]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

durasteel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Tranquil have free will. They just have no emotions anymore. 

If the Tranquil had free will, you would see some of them leading lives of their own choice. One might make a logical determination that building a road, farming, etc. was something that needed to be done, and go do it. Instead, the Tranquil are all given jobs by the Chantry that they do until they die. They do not choose any part of their lives. They're zombie slaves, and the fact that they retain logical cognitive ability makes them useful slaves, not free people.

Some do. You don't see it ingame, but once a mage is made Tranquil they are free to leave the Circle since they aren't mages anymore. As for being logical, that's one reason most stay. Other people see them with unease while the Chantry respects them and gives them jobs enchanting, so it is only logical to stay with the people who will most likely help you. It's kind of like an ultimate form of Stockholm Syndrone, where the Tranquil need the Chantry and the Chantry need the Tranquil.

Didn't one tranquil live in Redcliffe in the employ of the Arl? 

I recall finding a diary of a tranquil there or something to that effect.

[durasteel]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

LDS is right. There is Tranquil during the Broken Tower that mention that they did not wish to die.

Fixed it for you.

Owain doesn't want to die, but he doesn't really care much. He just goes back to work.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Master Warder Z wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

durasteel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
Tranquil have free will. They just have no emotions anymore. 

If the Tranquil had free will, you would see some of them leading lives of their own choice. One might make a logical determination that building a road, farming, etc. was something that needed to be done, and go do it. Instead, the Tranquil are all given jobs by the Chantry that they do until they die. They do not choose any part of their lives. They're zombie slaves, and the fact that they retain logical cognitive ability makes them useful slaves, not free people.

Some do. You don't see it ingame, but once a mage is made Tranquil they are free to leave the Circle since they aren't mages anymore. As for being logical, that's one reason most stay. Other people see them with unease while the Chantry respects them and gives them jobs enchanting, so it is only logical to stay with the people who will most likely help you. It's kind of like an ultimate form of Stockholm Syndrone, where the Tranquil need the Chantry and the Chantry need the Tranquil.

Didn't one tranquil live in Redcliffe in the employ of the Arl? 

I recall finding a diary of a tranquil there or something to that effect.

Maybe. I meant more you actually seeing them there in the game. It's from Codexes and stuff like you said that we know they can leave at any time.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

durasteel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

LDS is right. There is Tranquil during the Broken Tower that mention that they did not wish to die.

Fixed it for you.

Owain doesn't want to die, but he doesn't really care much. He just goes back to work.

Because he feels safe where he was. It's only logical to go somewhere you feel is safe during a crisis.

[Grieving Natashina]

@Warden You can find the book in Redcliffe castle (as well as by Elsa in DA2,) but the entry is from a Tranquil in Circle of Magi in Starkhaven.

http://dragonage.wik...of_the_Tranquil

Some laugh at me. I no longer mind.

Once upon a time, I studied as they did. I learned under the tutelage of an enchanter and attempted to master the art of bending magic to my will, and while I did well enough, I know that I struggled. I saw the way the enchanter looked at me, the sidelong glances of worry and disappointment. While other apprentices were conjuring fire, I could barely light a candle.

I was frightened of magic. When I was a boy, my grandmother regaled me with tales of the terrible Flemeth, the Witch of the Wilds. She told me of the magisters and how their evil magic infected the world with the darkspawn. She told me of demons, and how they were drawn to the dreams of those who possessed magic like moths to a flame. She told me all these things because, she said, the talent ran in our family's blood.

And so it ran in mine. All my young life I had dreaded the thought, prayed to the Maker that I was not so cursed, but I knew otherwise. Deep in my heart, I knew. When the templars came to our home, I knew.

The mages' tower was terrifying, full of secrets and danger. The templars glared at me as if I could spring full into an abomination before their very eyes. My enchanter patiently attempted to teach me to marshal my willpower, my only defense should a demon attempt to enslave me, but it was no use. How many nights did I cry myself to sleep in that dark and lonely place?

Then my Harrowing came at last, my final test. Face a demon, they said, or submit to the Rite of Tranquility. They would sever my connection to the Fade, and thus I would never dream and no demon could ever touch me--but I would also be unable to do magic, and I would never feel an emotion ever again. Facing the demon was certain death, so my choice was easy.

It was not so painful.

Now I serve in other ways. We Tranquil manage the archives. We run the tower, purchase the supplies and maintain the accounts. Our condition also allows us to use the magical element lyrium without ill effect, and thus we are the ones who enchant the magical items. We are the merchants who sell these items to those the Circle permits, and the coin from those sales provides the Circle's wealth.

Thus, we Tranquil are vital. The young and old may stare at me, ill at ease, but they would be worse off without me. They may think me a failure, but there is no horror for me now. I feel no fear of what I am. The shadows are merely shadows, and I am content.

--Eddin the Meek, Tranquil of the Circle of Magi of Starkhaven, the Free Marches.

I couldn't find an entry that talks about Redcliffe and serving under the Arl, sadly.