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[Master Warder Z_]

durasteel wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

LDS is right. There is Tranquil during the Broken Tower that mention that they did not wish to die.

Fixed it for you.

Owain doesn't want to die, but he doesn't really care much. He just goes back to work.

Benifit of being able to use Logic instead of instinct.

honestly Tranqulity gets a bad rap when in fact even if they outraged and furious when it done to them they will be content for the rest of their existance.

As Marvin the Martian would say "Isn't that lovely?"

.-. To me its giving them a gift, making them safe, Stable and giving them a role and choice of their choosing for the first time in a mage's life.

They can serve the Circle still or find their own way, its up to them and i think there is something symbolic about that personally.

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Yes ferelden circle , baroness and every other 1000000 disasters caused by mages were meredith fault crap even first tevinter empire was her fault damn mages are so pure and perfect the embodiment of innocence they just need love it is everything templars fault!

Okay, I was fine with you not listing disasters by mages but pulling out the number one million makes me call you out on it. List me one million disasters that was caused by mages. Also, each disaster only counts as one, so no "Blight kills tens of thousands of people".

We have blight pretty much colosal disaster on world scale and we have 7 blight...
Uldred rebelion
Avernus demons
First tevinter empire add to that every veil they weaken or torn and damage they caused
Second tevinter empire and ^
Zathrian curse
Connor destruction
Baroness "experiments"
Army of harvesters
Many sealed demons in some places in thedas...
Mage-templar war
Quentin sick experiments
Tarohne and her group creating abomnations for the hell of it...
Willhelm demons experiments
Grace boyfriend army of undead and second grace insanity and kidnaping one of hawke companions...
Jowan incompetence
Blood mages in denerim
Tevinter slavers in alienage
velanna killing peoples.
Qunari mage trying summon demon army
Blood mages trying control dragons and taking over the world...
and count every other abomnation , blood mage trough history most of that examples are only in 10 year timeline

The army of harvister were made by the dwarves.
Connor destruction  and Jowan incompetence are the same thing.

And that not 1000000 events.

[cjones91]

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

Who's going to build a tower in the middle of the sea?

Some one who can use Chibaku Tensei to rearrange the sea floor and form a land mass?

Sadly there aren't any mages who are powerful enough to do such a thing aside from Tevinter.

[Master Warder Z_]

cjones91 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

What threat can they do from a tower in the middle of the Glass sea? So far beyond the Antivian Trade Routes it isn't even Thedas anymore.

If they destory each other all the better, Regretful for the Lives lost don't get me wrong its just ultimately for the best if they cannot sustain themselves from civilization in the end. Ugly reminders and all.

Who's going to build a tower in the middle of the sea?

Some one who can use Chibaku Tensei to rearrange the sea floor and form a land mass?

Sadly there aren't any mages who are powerful enough to do such a thing aside from Tevinter.

It probably took them half their senate just to sink a single city

I doubt we would find Nagato levels of OP'ness/Epic'ness there either.

It was merely a jest anyway.

[Banxey]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Wouldn't be the first time Gaider and I disagreed on something i'd say in fact its probably about the fifth or sixth when it comes to DA.

But that said How exactly is that the truth when in fact every Tranquil is capable of acting on their own free will, Having cohrerent thought, And operating cognitive centers of the brain. A Feat most lobodamites cannot boast of. Like i said its comparing using power tools to rip out chunks of graymatter to losing talent, emotion and dreams.

So far the two that have been stripped from it have hardly been better for their expreince, espeically the tranquil given the emotional instability. Fatal Weakeness in a mage i'd agrue.

So disgusting and in my opinion utterly incorrect comparsion aside; To me? Your supporting an extreme view of the position which is far more unsustainable then my own in which you have people capable of thinking, acting and doing for themselves, rather then being a cognitively depraved vegtable.

Lobotomy was practiced for quite a number of years as a medical cure for psychosis, depression, anxiety, etc. They even went so far as to use it on unruly children (Howard Dully being the most famous). The process was intended to calm a person's emotions without damaging their intelligence or motor skills. It cured suicidal people, in a way. It could also damage a person's memory. But the majority of people who had lobotomies were still able to live and function. So I'd say Gaider's view that tranquility is a type of lobotomy is fairly apt, as the frontal lobe controls emotions and is the centre of personality.

Modifié par Banxey2, 18 février 2014 - 12:55 .

[Master Warder Z_]

Banxey2 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Wouldn't be the first time Gaider and I disagreed on something i'd say in fact its probably about the fifth or sixth when it comes to DA.

But that said How exactly is that the truth when in fact every Tranquil is capable of acting on their own free will, Having cohrerent thought, And operating cognitive centers of the brain. A Feat most lobodamites cannot boast of. Like i said its comparing using power tools to rip out chunks of graymatter to losing talent, emotion and dreams.

So far the two that have been stripped from it have hardly been better for their expreince, espeically the tranquil given the emotional instability. Fatal Weakeness in a mage i'd agrue.

So disgusting and in my opinion utterly incorrect comparsion aside; To me? Your supporting an extreme view of the position which is far more unsustainable then my own in which you have people capable of thinking, acting and doing for themselves, rather then being a cognitively depraved vegtable.

Lobotomy was practiced for quite a number of years as a medical cure for psychosis, depression, anxiety, etc. They even went so far as to use it on unruly children (Howard Dully being the most famous). The process was intended to calm a person's emotions without damaging their intelligence or motor skills. It cured suicidal people, in a way. It could also damage a person's memory. But the majority of people who had lobotomies were still able to live and function. So I'd say Gaider's view that tranquility is a type of lobotomy is fairly apt, as the frontal lobe controls emotions and is the centre of personality.

I know a bit of its storied history, and the internet has taught me more in the short while this comparision has been floating around as well. Might as well learn if you plan to dispute something right?

Fair point, But you are still comparing splitting a skull and cutting out, drilling out, or otherwise removing portions of the Brain to removing Emotions and Dreams.

Furthermore no one has died following a botched tranqulity either.

._.  Ironically enough?

I have a handful of Sigrid Hjerten paintings and etchings.

Poor Lass was a paragon of the Modernest movement who died of the very practice we debate now.

To me? That's the end of the debate, Your comparing Junk Science to a magical rite that in essence? I view as a positive.

[Adanu]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Navasha wrote...
The onus and responsibility for everything that happens ultimately falls upon the Templars, since that is the way they setup the system.

No it does not.
Mages are not children and templars don't have total control over them.

That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

[The Baconer]

Adanu wrote...
That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

Dairsmund? Maybe not the best example...

[Master Warder Z_]

The Baconer wrote...

Adanu wrote...
That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

Dairsmund? Maybe not the best example...

Wynne?

.-. Short list though i do admit and rightfully so.

Mages belong in the circle after all.

[durasteel]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Wynne?

.-. Short list though i do admit and rightfully so.

Mages belong in the circle after all.

Wynne was allowed to leave with the Warden by Knight-Commander Greagoir after the Warden had proven capable of handling abominations. She was not the only one, either--a contingent of mages follows the Warden pursuant to the terms of the treaty.

One assumes that Greagoir was aware that the Warden could technically have conscripted Wynne to join the Grey Wardens anyway. Since she was a strong candidate to become First Enchanter, letting her go would provide a much better chance of her coming back after the blight was dealt with.

Mages, like any other person, belong almost anywhere on the surface of Thedas. They're born normally and occur naturally. Even if enough stupid people banded together to round up all mages and lock them away, brain-rape them into Tranquility, or just kill them outright, there would be mages everywhere again within a generation.

Mages belong where people live, because no matter what the Cult of Andraste and it sycophants say or do that's where mages will always be.

Modifié par durasteel, 18 février 2014 - 02:18 .

[Banxey]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...

Master Warder Z wrote...

Wouldn't be the first time Gaider and I disagreed on something i'd say in fact its probably about the fifth or sixth when it comes to DA.

But that said How exactly is that the truth when in fact every Tranquil is capable of acting on their own free will, Having cohrerent thought, And operating cognitive centers of the brain. A Feat most lobodamites cannot boast of. Like i said its comparing using power tools to rip out chunks of graymatter to losing talent, emotion and dreams.

So far the two that have been stripped from it have hardly been better for their expreince, espeically the tranquil given the emotional instability. Fatal Weakeness in a mage i'd agrue.

So disgusting and in my opinion utterly incorrect comparsion aside; To me? Your supporting an extreme view of the position which is far more unsustainable then my own in which you have people capable of thinking, acting and doing for themselves, rather then being a cognitively depraved vegtable.

Lobotomy was practiced for quite a number of years as a medical cure for psychosis, depression, anxiety, etc. They even went so far as to use it on unruly children (Howard Dully being the most famous). The process was intended to calm a person's emotions without damaging their intelligence or motor skills. It cured suicidal people, in a way. It could also damage a person's memory. But the majority of people who had lobotomies were still able to live and function. So I'd say Gaider's view that tranquility is a type of lobotomy is fairly apt, as the frontal lobe controls emotions and is the centre of personality.

I know a bit of its storied history, and the internet has taught me more in the short while this comparision has been floating around as well. Might as well learn if you plan to dispute something right?

Fair point, But you are still comparing splitting a skull and cutting out, drilling out, or otherwise removing portions of the Brain to removing Emotions and Dreams.

Furthermore no one has died following a botched tranqulity either.

._.  Ironically enough?

I have a handful of Sigrid Hjerten paintings and etchings.

Poor Lass was a paragon of the Modernest movement who died of the very practice we debate now.

To me? That's the end of the debate, Your comparing Junk Science to a magical rite that in essence? I view as a positive.

I'm sorry I gave the impression I was being argumentitive, I wasn't actually trying to debate tranquility one way or the other. I was just pointing out what I believed Gaider was referring to, since you had said you disagreed with his assessment. Functionally, an "ice pick" lobotomy isn't invasive and only involves severing the brain's connection to the frontal lobe. I wouldn't be surprised if the rite of tranquility was born from the idea of it. I'm not going to debate whether or not I think tranquility is right, however. I just have an interest in dodgy medicine is all. 

[Banxey]

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Adanu wrote...
That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

Dairsmund? Maybe not the best example...

Wynne?

.-. Short list though i do admit and rightfully so.

Mages belong in the circle after all.

Finn had permission to leave the circle in Witch Hunt for research(?) I believe. It probably depends on the Circle. The Ferelden one seems more easy going than most. 

[durasteel]

Banxey2 wrote...
I'm sorry I gave the impression I was being argumentitive, I wasn't actually trying to debate tranquility one way or the other. ...

You didn't, it wasn't you. Z is trying to find something to argue about, probably because we don't actually have any new game info to talk about.

[dragonflight288]

The Baconer wrote...

Adanu wrote...
That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

Dairsmund? Maybe not the best example...

Well, there's Wilhelm who was given special exhemption by the Ferelden crown due to his service in the war against Orlais. 

[Anvos]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Adanu wrote...
That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

Dairsmund? Maybe not the best example...

Well, there's Wilhelm who was given special exhemption by the Ferelden crown due to his service in the war against Orlais. 

Well that was also since his demon research wouldn't so much be allowed in the tower.

[dragonflight288]

Anvos wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Adanu wrote...
That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

Dairsmund? Maybe not the best example...

Well, there's Wilhelm who was given special exhemption by the Ferelden crown due to his service in the war against Orlais. 

Well that was also since his demon research wouldn't so much be allowed in the tower.

Ah, but he wasn't constrained by templars to return there, and used the opportunity to study demons and shale. He was given his freedom from the Circle by Maric before he started that research. From my understanding of his journal, he started it after he married and had a son. 

Kind of irresponsible of him, but he is an example, an exceptional case, where a single mage doesn't have to be ordered around by the templars. 

[Banxey]

durasteel wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...
I'm sorry I gave the impression I was being argumentitive, I wasn't actually trying to debate tranquility one way or the other. ...

You didn't, it wasn't you. Z is trying to find something to argue about, probably because we don't actually have any new game info to talk about.

Ah. That's OK. I know how fired up people get over this topic so it's no big deal. 

[Adanu]

Master Warder Z wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

Adanu wrote...
That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

Dairsmund? Maybe not the best example...

Wynne?

.-. Short list though i do admit and rightfully so.

Mages belong in the circle after all.

She has the permission of the Templars., try again.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


So that's 25 confirmed(would be 27 but 6th and 7th Blight haven't happened yet so don't count) and an unknown value of abomination events, though simple an abomination killing someone I don't count as a disaster but I'll let it slide. That means we need 999,975 abomination cases, not counting the ones you already used, to make one million. But wait, mages are extremely rare, like 1% of the population according to you. That means for that many events to occur, Thedas would have needed a population of 99,997,500 nonmages. In that era, those numbers didn't even exist. 

To be honest i had more i just went lazy and ended to not crush too much naive pro-mages and i think that you took that number a little to literally it meant that we have colosal numbers of disasters caused by mages... another matter that you claim that abomnation killing 72 peoples isn't disaster when it is small but still is...

1% ? perhaps for me it is like perhaps 2-5 % or 3-6 % more likely first scenario and take that disasters caused by mage are rather hefty so killing them with my list that isn't even complete is removing **** they will cause in future and considering they did through 10 years time line i can only think when we have few thousands years of history with mages...  

Simple templars were in posistion to RoA in kirkwall they know they can't make a mistake because when dealing with mages mistakes are expensive but they can't see that they never controled mages and never will be so here is my solution and with my examples im right about mages...

leaguer of one wrote...

The army of harvister were made by the dwarves.
Connor destruction  and Jowan incompetence are the same thing.

And that not 1000000 events.

Just lovin when last line of defence pro mages is pretend idiots and take everything literally if i was travel through history in thedas and gathering informations

1.Not rly tevinter magister created that by summoning spirits dwarves tried only recreate caridin work so all props go to tevinter magister not dwarves...
2.Not rly connor destruction is one thing jowan destroying everything around like poisoning arl is another...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 18 février 2014 - 08:42 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...


So that's 25 confirmed(would be 27 but 6th and 7th Blight haven't happened yet so don't count) and an unknown value of abomination events, though simple an abomination killing someone I don't count as a disaster but I'll let it slide. That means we need 999,975 abomination cases, not counting the ones you already used, to make one million. But wait, mages are extremely rare, like 1% of the population according to you. That means for that many events to occur, Thedas would have needed a population of 99,997,500 nonmages. In that era, those numbers didn't even exist. 

To be honest i had more i just went lazy and ended to not crush too much naive pro-mages and i think that you took that number a little to literally it meant that we have colosal numbers of disasters caused by mages... another matter that you claim that abomnation killing 72 peoples isn't disaster when it is small but still is...

1% ? perhaps for me it is like perhaps 2-5 % or 3-6 % more likely first scenario and take that disasters caused by mage are rather hefty so killing them with my list that isn't even complete is removing **** they will cause in future and considering they did through 10 years time line i can only think when we have few thousands years of history with mages...  

Simple templars were in posistion to RoA in kirkwall they know they can't make a mistake because when dealing with mages mistakes are expensive but they can't see that they never controled mages and never will be so here is my solution and with my examples im right about mages...

When giving an argument, it best not to make rediculous thuings up for "well, you get my point there are a lot".

Also I feel it needs clarifying that I am not Pro-Mage. I am Pro-Compromise, as in finding a solution that works well for both sides. And stop with the insults.

Finally, just because someone disagrees with you does not make them naive or stupid. Calling them such hurts your side more than it does there since it shows you have nothing else to back you so you resort to petty insults.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

When giving an argument, it best not to make rediculous thuings up for "well, you get my point there are a lot".

Also I feel it needs clarifying that I am not Pro-Mage. I am Pro-Compromise, as in finding a solution that works well for both sides. And stop with the insults.

Finally, just because someone disagrees with you does not make them naive or stupid. Calling them such hurts your side more than it does there since it shows you have nothing else to back you so you resort to petty insults.

Ridiculus no i don't think so i can bet that we had many disasters caused by mages when we would sum up entire history maybe not 1000000 but not far enough to make difference...

I don't care if you are pro-mage you are acting like one in their defense and im not insulting anyone if you take that as insult too bad because you can take everything like insult if you have desire to do so...

And once again i never claimed that if someone disagree with me is naive i claimed that they are naive if they belive in some things and that is here in case... and yes i have to back that big list of examples and my arguments based on that list and human nature and reality that most try avoid in mage templar war topics... 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

When giving an argument, it best not to make rediculous thuings up for "well, you get my point there are a lot".

Also I feel it needs clarifying that I am not Pro-Mage. I am Pro-Compromise, as in finding a solution that works well for both sides. And stop with the insults.

Finally, just because someone disagrees with you does not make them naive or stupid. Calling them such hurts your side more than it does there since it shows you have nothing else to back you so you resort to petty insults.

Ridiculus no i don't think so i can bet that we had many disasters caused by mages when we would sum up entire history maybe not 1000000 but not far enough to make difference...

I don't care if you are pro-mage you are acting like one in their defense and im not insulting anyone if you take that as insult too bad because you can take everything like insult if you have desire to do so...

And once again i never claimed that if someone disagree with me is naive i claimed that they are naive if they belive in some things and that is here in case... and yes i have to back that big list of examples and my arguments based on that list and human nature and reality that most try avoid in mage templar war topics... 

I say claiming there to have been one million tragedies yet only having enough documented cases to make. 0.000025% of that is pretty rediculous.

I think it's not so much I am Pro-Mage, but more you are Anti-Mage. To your position, anything positive said of mages seems like Pro-Mage stuff to you.

You say they are naive to think certain things. And those things you disagree with. Therefore, you are calling people who disagree with you naive.

I'm not trying to argue with you, just trying to clarify a few things and give some advice on how to better deliver your argument.

Modifié par LDS Darth Revan, 18 février 2014 - 09:07 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

When giving an argument, it best not to make rediculous thuings up for "well, you get my point there are a lot".

Also I feel it needs clarifying that I am not Pro-Mage. I am Pro-Compromise, as in finding a solution that works well for both sides. And stop with the insults.

Finally, just because someone disagrees with you does not make them naive or stupid. Calling them such hurts your side more than it does there since it shows you have nothing else to back you so you resort to petty insults.

Ridiculus no i don't think so i can bet that we had many disasters caused by mages when we would sum up entire history maybe not 1000000 but not far enough to make difference...

I don't care if you are pro-mage you are acting like one in their defense and im not insulting anyone if you take that as insult too bad because you can take everything like insult if you have desire to do so...

And once again i never claimed that if someone disagree with me is naive i claimed that they are naive if they belive in some things and that is here in case... and yes i have to back that big list of examples and my arguments based on that list and human nature and reality that most try avoid in mage templar war topics... 

I say claiming there to have been one million tragedies yet only having enough documented cases to make. 0.000025% of that is pretty rediculous.

I think it's not so much I am Pro-Mage, but more you are Anti-Mage. To your position, anything positive said of mages seems like Pro-Mage stuff to you.

You say they are naive to think certain things. And those things you disagree with. Therefore, you are calling people who disagree with you naive.

It is nothing ridiculus when we take mages and as i said you take that number too literally because as i said i never was checking that i took that conclusion on 10 year timline and vast of numbers of disasters caused by mages just in 1 country + 1 city and perspecrive of 2 peoples and now add tousands of years game deson't even try to hide that mages are little more than massive troubles for thedas...

Saying positive thing is fine saying naive that isn't true positive is not and thats what are you doing and many pro-mages well yes im anti-mage i can admit it but not because i hate mages simple they too dangerous , too
troublesome and little usefull to even think about keeping them alive otherwise they are parasites in thedas...

You may have that impresion because perhaps you read my discussion with you or other pro-mages i not always say that someone is naive because someone deson't agree with me mostly i scold pro-mages for that and occasionally some pro-templars but mostly pro-templars aren't naive even if i disagree with them and im not pro-templar...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 18 février 2014 - 09:16 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And you just proved my point.

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

And you just proved my point.

Well what point and why