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[renfrees]

They can have Seheron. If they can take it.

And repel the attacks of the Qunari, Tevinter and Fog Warriors altogether? *chuckle*

How do they survive there, what would they produce to not starve etc.? Considering the wast majority of them are Circle mages, poorly accustomed to autonomous life. Magic is good for destruction, not that good for raising a wheat.

 

Well, assuming they'd find a fleet large enough to cross the sea to reach Seheron for starters.

Modifié par renfrees, 12 mars 2014 - 04:52 .

[dzs Angel]

1. Emigration and possible submission for majority, as i mentioned.

 

2. And if not? The number of Keepers and their Firsts, that is required, is limited. They even send magical children to other clans, if their own does not require another mage.

 

3.

a) And who would give them the land to create a state, or would they attempt to take it by force and if then - from which country? There will have to be common border with at least one mage-friendly country in case things get tricky. Unless they want to be surrounded, of course.

b ) And if not? Even if the next king will be a pro-mage, on what terms their integration into common Andrastian society would be possible?

c) How do you envision the destruction of a primary religious institute of the hemi-sphere by a minor, if powerful group?

1. Emigration yes, submission no

 

2.

 

That is because their clans are scattered. In the reestablished Dales their would be no need to send anyone anywhere, because they are a country, thus able to integrate a few mages. Elven mages don´t fight for power, except some excaptions from the circle(Orsinus,Fiona).

 

3.

 

a ) They are already at war, so I assume they are going to take it by force. A common border with Tevinter would be a wise course of action, but a possible alliance with ferelden could prove to be even better in the long run. As well as an allience with the Dales. The Elves don´t hate mages per se, they hate the magisters for their enslavement, and the Dalish hate all shemlen, because Orlais did the same. All 3 nations will have a common enemy for the rest of their life, Orlais. So an independent mage nation might be possible in northern or southern Orlais.

b ) The Andrastians religion is forced on a lot of people by Orlais and the chantry. Most of the people in Thedas would give a flying f... if the chantry would be destroyed, because in their eyes a powerful instrument of orlaisian oppression would have been destroyed, and in no way their connection to the maker. If they even believe in the maker. Don´t forget Kolgrim considers himself to be Andrastian as well, but in his case she is a dragon.

[The Baconer]

And repel the attacks of the Qunari, Tevinter and Fog Warriors altogether? *chuckle*

How do they survive there, what would they produce to not starve etc.? Considering the wast majority of them are Circle mages, poorly accustomed to autonomous life. Magic is good for destruction, not that good for raising a wheat.

 

Well, assuming they'd find a fleet large enough to cross the sea to reach Seheron for starters.

 

Yeah, that was kind of the point.

[renfrees]

1. Emigration yes, submission no

 

2.

 

That is because their clans are scattered. In the reestablished Dales their would be no need to send anyone anywhere, because they are a country, thus able to integrate a few mages. Elven mages don´t fight for power, except some excaptions from the circle(Orsinus,Fiona).

 

3.

 

a ) They are already at war, so I assume they are going to take it by force. A common border with Tevinter would be a wise course of action, but a possible alliance with ferelden could prove to be even better in the long run. As well as an allience with the Dales. The Elves don´t hate mages per se, they hate the magisters for their enslavement, and the Dalish hate all shemlen, because Orlais did the same. All 3 nations will have a common enemy for the rest of their life, Orlais. So an independent mage nation might be possible in northern or southern Orlais.

b ) The Andrastians religion is forced on a lot of people by Orlais and the chantry. Most of the people in Thedas would give a flying f... if the chantry would be destroyed, because in their eyes a powerful instrument of orlaisian oppression would have been destroyed, and in no way their connection to the maker. If they even believe in the maker. Don´t forget Kolgrim considers himself to be Andrastian as well, but in his case she is a dragon.

1. Don't forget, that the magisters are totally ok with enslaving and exploiting the weaker mages, especially the ones not of Tevinter origin. And we can safely assume, that the majority of the newly freed mages are fairly weak.

 

2. I understand that would be the likely outcome in the case of a Dalish kingdom, but my first sentence was - what if not? What if the Dalish wouldn't be able to achieve it, if they still would be in scattered state? What then?

 

3. If they'll take it from Orlais, it'd be a new Exalted March the moment their civil war is ended. And mind you, templars would help it. In case of the Dalish you again assuming they would have their kingdom, which isn't given. And i don't really consider Dalish a nation anyway, they are nomads.

[dragonflight288]

 

b ) The Andrastians religion is forced on a lot of people by Orlais and the chantry. Most of the people in Thedas would give a flying f... if the chantry would be destroyed, because in their eyes a powerful instrument of orlaisian oppression would have been destroyed, and in no way their connection to the maker. If they even believe in the maker. Don´t forget Kolgrim considers himself to be Andrastian as well, but in his case she is a dragon.

 

Actually, most people seem to believe strongly in the Chantry as devout Andrastians. I'm sure most people aren't aware of the politicking that happened between Justinia and Lambert, only that the seekers and the templars have gone rogue. 

 

I'm sure most people wouldn't have cared at the time it was being forced upon them, but most people have been living with family members as believers for generations. The Avaars, Chasind, Dalish and the Qunari are the only groups that don't outright follow the Chant of Light. The Rivaini seemed to follow it as well as their own traditions before they were annulled, and the common man didn't resist the Chantry so much as they resisted the Chantry trying to force their views on how mages should be treated on a country where mages have an honored place in society. Most Rivaini's probably wouldn't care if the Chantry kicked the bucket after the annulment however (and that is just speculation based on the lore we already have and how much they revere their seers.)

 

I'm actually kind of interested in what role the Chantry will play in Inquisition. They have no Circles under their control, the templars and seekers for the most part have gone rogue, and the Chantry seems to be going through a great deal of infighting since we know that many Grand Clerics don't like Justinia V, and I'm probably remembering this wrong from Asunder since it's been awhile since I read it, but didn't Lambert want to have her assassinated and replaced with a Divine more malleable to his way of thinking?

 

I'm pretty sure I remember someone, somewhere in the book said something like that. If I'm wrong, then I'll just have to say "woops" but the Chantry no longer has the political clout or the military arm to enforce anything. At this point, the threat of an Exalted March is almost laughable with how little power the Chantry now has. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the Chantry develops when all they have are likely to be a handful of templars and seekers, maybe a few loyalists, and their sugar daddy country Orlais too busy fighting itself to help them out. 

[Lulupab]

Orlais had civil wars since its very existence because all of Orlais is conquered lands from other nations and its a nation without history before introduction of chantry.

[renfrees]

Orlais had civil wars since its very existence because all of Orlais is conquered lands from other nations and its a nation without history before introduction of chantry.

I meant civil war between Celene and Gaspard.

[dragonflight288]

 

 

2. I understand that would be the likely outcome in the case of a Dalish kingdom, but my first sentence was - what if not? What if the Dalish wouldn't be able to achieve it, if they still would be in scattered state? What then?

 

I suppose that would depend on how the situation develops, how elven rebellion goes down, how much of a mess the demons make because of the giant veil tear, and if the Dales ever end up repopulated by the humans who are fleeing the Dales because of the Orlesian civil war. 

[renfrees]

Thank you for the good debate. Please, do continue, imho this topic has much room for exploration and i would like to hear different thoughts on the matter. Unfortunately, i am off to sleep 

[dzs Angel]

1. Don't forget, that the magisters are totally ok with enslaving and exploiting the weaker mages, especially the ones not of Tevinter origin. And we can safely assume, that the majority of the newly freed mages are fairly weak.

 

2. I understand that would be the likely outcome in the case of a Dalish kingdom, but my first sentence was - what if not? What if the Dalish wouldn't be able to achieve it, if they still would be in scattered state? What then?

 

3. If they'll take it from Orlais, it'd be a new Exalted March the moment their civil war is ended. And mind you, templars would help it. In case of the Dalish you again assuming they would have their kingdom, which isn't given. And i don't really consider Dalish a nation anyway, they are nomads.

1.

 

Absolutely. But like I said, I don´t care for slavers or people who are willing to join an empire based on and created by slavery.

 

2.

 

a ) The Dalish are willing to accept almost every fellow elf( example: Dalish Origin, DAO´s Elves in the wood, Wynne´s former pupil, etc.).

b ) There already is an elven uprising( book: The masked Empire), even if it fails the dalish will have a lot of new citizens from the alienages. So they might as well incorparate a few mages as well.

 

3.

 

Orlais is weakend on several fronts:

 

a ) Civil war

b ) Mage-templar war

c ) the templars split from the chantry, so they are not taking orlaisian commands anymore

d ) elven uprising in the alienages

e) possible Qunari invasion. Like I said, the Qunari are not stupid. They realize an opportunity, and a weakend Orlais is an opportunity to attack.

[dzs Angel]

Actually, most people seem to believe strongly in the Chantry as devout Andrastians. I'm sure most people aren't aware of the politicking that happened between Justinia and Lambert, only that the seekers and the templars have gone rogue. 

 

I'm sure most people wouldn't have cared at the time it was being forced upon them, but most people have been living with family members as believers for generations. The Avaars, Chasind, Dalish and the Qunari are the only groups that don't outright follow the Chant of Light. The Rivaini seemed to follow it as well as their own traditions before they were annulled, and the common man didn't resist the Chantry so much as they resisted the Chantry trying to force their views on how mages should be treated on a country where mages have an honored place in society. Most Rivaini's probably wouldn't care if the Chantry kicked the bucket after the annulment however (and that is just speculation based on the lore we already have and how much they revere their seers.)

 

I'm actually kind of interested in what role the Chantry will play in Inquisition. They have no Circles under their control, the templars and seekers for the most part have gone rogue, and the Chantry seems to be going through a great deal of infighting since we know that many Grand Clerics don't like Justinia V, and I'm probably remembering this wrong from Asunder since it's been awhile since I read it, but didn't Lambert want to have her assassinated and replaced with a Divine more malleable to his way of thinking?

 

I'm pretty sure I remember someone, somewhere in the book said something like that. If I'm wrong, then I'll just have to say "woops" but the Chantry no longer has the political clout or the military arm to enforce anything. At this point, the threat of an Exalted March is almost laughable with how little power the Chantry now has. 

 

It'll be interesting to see how the Chantry develops when all they have are likely to be a handful of templars and seekers, maybe a few loyalists, and their sugar daddy country Orlais too busy fighting itself to help them out. 

1.

 

I disagree, the Rivaini don´t take kindly to their Seer´s being slaughtered.

 

2.

 

Excactly, Dignity and an empty sack is worse the sack. And that is the current state of the chantry, an opportunity for everyone who has been oppressed by chantry doctrine for far too long.

 

Orlais had civil wars since its very existence because all of Orlais is conquered lands from other nations and its a nation without history before introduction of chantry.

Yes sir, Orlais is all about power, and once they loose their power, there won´t be much of Orlais left to deal with. This might be the best chance ever to get rid of its oppression once and for all.

 

Thank you for the good debate. Please, do continue, imho this topic has much room for exploration and i would like to hear different thoughts on the matter. Unfortunately, i am off to sleep 

You´re welcome

[AresKeith]

I'm wondering to myself how seriously 'evil' players can be taken when conversations like these are the norm rather than the exception.

 

Hi David

[dragonflight288]

1.

 

I disagree, the Rivaini don´t take kindly to their Seer´s being slaughtered.

 

2.

 

Excactly, Dignity and an empty sack is worse the sack. And that is the current state of the chantry, an opportunity for everyone who has been oppressed by chantry doctrine for far too long.

 

1. Which is why I said after the annulment they would be fine if the Chantry kicked the bucket. 

 

2. There are a lot of ways this can go. Justinia may say (however unlikely) "to the Fade with this," and publicly declare that elves no longer need to live in alienages and declare them equal to humans. That'd be fun to watch. Potentially devastating, but fun to watch. 

[AresKeith]

 

e) possible Qunari invasion. Like I said, the Qunari are not stupid. They realize an opportunity, and a weakend Orlais is an opportunity to attack.

 

The Qunari are busy fighting Tevinter

[Lulupab]

The Qunari are busy fighting Tevinter

 

Yes rest of Thedas is destroying itself while Tevinter is fighting the true enemy of Thedas.

 

Edit: Hmm so Tevinter is based on Byzantine empire right? And they fought Ottomans who happened to have very advanced gun power. I'm not implying anything but the evidence is all over it.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Qunari are busy fighting Tevinter

 

Are they? Fenris implies that the Qunari are not even trying to overcome Tevinter. By all accounts, the Qunari are holding a defensive and keeping the Tevinter from retaking the islands, but no more.

[dragonflight288]

Yes rest of Thedas is destroying itself while Tevinter is fighting the true enemy of Thedas.

 

Edit: Hmm so Tevinter is based on Byzantine empire right? And they fought Ottomans who happened to have very advanced gun power. I'm not implying anything but the evidence is all over it.

 

The Darkspawn? lol. Darkspawn don't differentiate between countries or factions. 

[Lulupab]

Are they? Fenris implies that the Qunari are not even trying to overcome Tevinter. By all accounts, the Qunari are holding a defensive and keeping the Tevinter from retaking the islands, but no more.

 

The wiki says the Island has changed hands a lot of times after the truce between rest of Thedas and Qunari. This time the Qunari have hold it for longest time in history of their war with Tevinter.

[AresKeith]

Are they? Fenris implies that the Qunari are not even trying to overcome Tevinter. By all accounts, the Qunari are holding a defensive and keeping the Tevinter from retaking the islands, but no more.

 

Well I never said the Qunari was trying to take their land just that they're fighting Tevinter

[Lulupab]

The Darkspawn? lol. Darkspawn don't differentiate between countries or factions. 

 

Qunari are more dangerous than Darkspawn who are predictable and never have any strategies, they just pour over the land. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Well I never said the Qunari was trying to take their land just that they're fighting Tevinter

 

But, and here's the important part- are the Qunari having much of their resources tied down by it? Enough to be considered 'busy' in a strategic sense?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Qunari are more dangerous than Darkspawn who are predictable and never have any strategies, they just pour over the land. 

 

Eee not rly? during the blight they are controled by archdemon who is intelligent thats why blights are so dangerous because archdemon gives darkspawn motivation and strategy beyond that darkspawn are physically superior than member of the race they were born and outnumber humans thats why killing archdemon is so important and blight ends with it...

[Lulupab]

Eee not rly? during the blight they are controled by archdemon who is intelligent thats why blights are so dangerous because archdemon gives darkspawn motivation and strategy beyond that darkspawn are physically superior than member of the race they were born and outnumber humans thats why killing archdemon is so important and blight ends with it...

 

So practically Darkspawn are fooled by an army while a handful of grey wardens kill the archdemon. Oooh so intelligent and brilliant strategy. The Qunari are much more dangerous.

[AresKeith]

Qunari are more dangerous than Darkspawn who are predictable and never have any strategies, they just pour over the land. 

 

Not really

[dragonflight288]

Qunari are more dangerous than Darkspawn who are predictable and never have any strategies, they just pour over the land. 

 

And reproduce endlessly, corrupt everything they come in contact with, even the land so it no longer is fertile, have near unlimited access to almost anywhere on the surface because they control the Deep Roads (although without an archdemon, they lack the brains to go up in an invasion save for a few raiding parties to probably gather females to turn into broodmothers,) have no fear, constantly advance, have no need of supply lines as I think Gaider said the taint sustains them even though they do eat, and taking one woman can result in thousands of soldiers.