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[Jedi Master of Orion]

According to WoT, the rural society is lead by the Seer's, the nobility and aristocracy who rule and control Rivani are strict adherents to the Chantry and are the ones who support the circle and Chantry in Rivani.  Also, wasn't it stated that the followers of the Qun that were killed in Rivani were killed by the Rivaini traditionalists because they wouldn't convert back to Chantry?  That sounds pretty pious to me.

 

Rivain is a country that seems to be divided into different communities and different regions have more influence in different regions of Rivain. The Chantry only has major influence in Dairsmuid. The Rivaini Qunari live mostly in the north. The rest seems to be mostly traditional Rivaini religion. The slaughter of the Qunari converts occurred right after the Qunari Wars and was perpetrated by Rivaini nationalists and Rivaini Chantry forces, I think it was mostly a backlash against the Qunari themselves than being religiously motivated.

[wcholcombe]

Seems like a small leap to me.

 

You already have them killing Qunari, Why not abominations? Or Apostates?

I am making the statement that they follow the Chantry, I don't think the powers that be who run Rivain are going to be that upset about what happened at the circle when they are considered extremely pious and while Rivain has a progressive attitude towards mages, the seers don't hold any power in the capital itself.

[Master Warder Z_]

Where in World of Thedas does it mention invasions of Par Vollen? The timeline only mentions the Raiders taking the island of Estwatch from the Qunari. The DA II codex only mentions invasions of "the Qunari coastline," which could mean anywhere considering they still owned a sizable chunk of Thedas at the time.

 

*goes back to reread WOT*

 

Mmm well i suppose that interpretation could be valid, if Thedosians considered occupied territories to lands of the Qunari, i'm of the mind its Par Vollen though.

[wcholcombe]

Rivain is a country that seems to be divided into different communities and different regions have more influence in different regions of Rivain. The Chantry only has major influence in Dairsmuid. The Rivaini Qunari live mostly in the north. The rest seems to be mostly traditional Rivaini religion. The slaughter of the Qunari converts occurred right after the Qunari Wars and was perpetrated by Rivaini nationalists and Rivaini Chantry forces, I think it was mostly a backlash against the Qunari themselves than being religiously motivated.

Yes, and the people who live in Dairsmund are the Royalty and the Aristocracy who control Rivain as a nation.  WoT just says they were slaughtered because they wouldn't convert back from the Qun.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yes, and the people who live in Dairsmund are the Royalty and the Aristocracy who control Rivain as a nation.  WoT just says they were slaughtered because they wouldn't convert back from the Qun.

 

Yet most of the people aren't Andrastian, either then or now. And Rivain is said to be as favored home of pirates of Raiders specifically because the Andarstian nobility don't have much influence outside the capital. There were political implications to having large Qunari populations in Rivain at the time. There are still Qunari (or people who consider themselves Qunari) in Rivain today, and they don't seem to be continually massacred.

[wcholcombe]

I think it would depend on the local Chantry leadership. I can see some supporting Lambert's defection, while others may oppose it.

I could see a hard liner Grand Cleric--say a character like Petrice-- breaking ranks and supporting Lambert's group, but the rank and file revered mothers and Chantry's I would expect to stay loyal to the Divine.  I also would expect from our interactions with them in game that more than a few Templars that don't serve in the circles would remain with the Chantry.

 

I fully allow that the majority of Templars in a Circle would follow Lambert, the atmosphere currently in most circles we have seen among templars would reinforce that.

[wcholcombe]

Yet most of the people aren't Andrastian, either then or now. And Rivain is said to be as favored home of pirates of Raiders specifically because the Andarstian nobility don't have much influence outside the capital. There were political implications to having large Qunari populations in Rivain at the time. There are still Qunari (or people who consider themselves Qunari) in Rivain today, and they don't seem to be continually massacred.

You may be correct, however I see the followers of Pantheism to be in the more rural areas and that is where the seers power would lie.  Much as a wise woman or an elder in midevil times would have power in their small village, but on a larger scale, Dairsmund nationally still holds the power.  Again I admit a fair bit of this is my interpretation from WoT, but barring more details, so would be the opposite.

[Master Warder Z_]

There are still Qunari (or people who consider themselves Qunari) in Rivain today, and they don't seem to be continually massacred.

 

Where is such mentioned?

 

Given that in the aftermath of the Qunari wars the Local Chantry did lead purges against followers of the Qun, i'd be surprised that the belief system still festers there today.

[wcholcombe]

Where is such mentioned?

 

Given that in the aftermath of the Qunari wars the Local Chantry did lead purges against followers of the Qun, i'd be surprised that the belief system still festers there today.

WoT says that Qun is still a faith in Rivain.

[Grieving Natashina]

I just checked the wiki, as well as the source.  It's from WoT:
 

Kont-aar - a Qunari settlement located on the northern coast. It's the last holding of the Qunari on the main land of Thedas and is supposed to be well fortified. It is also the sole peaceful Qunari settlement on the continent.

 

Unlike the majority of peoples in Thedas, the Rivaini are not Andrastians and don't believe in the Maker. Rather, they are pantheists who believe in the Natural Order. As such, many hold to the belief that their god and the universe are the same.[1] Many, especially in Kont-aar, have also converted to the Qun, as their religion and the Qun are not very contradictory. According to Ferdinand Genitivi, a well-known Chantry scholar, "The Chant of Light never truly reached the ears of these people. Resistance to the Chant goes deeper than the Qunari Wars. The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to be possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition."

 

[Master Warder Z_]

WoT says that Qun is still a faith in Rivain.

 

Page please.

 

Rereading it at the present time anyway.

[Grieving Natashina]

Page please.

 

Rereading it at the present time anyway.

Vol 1, page 80

[Master Warder Z_]

I just checked the wiki, as well as the source.  It's from WoT:
 

 

Yeah i was aware of that codex entry, in fact it was mentioned a few times just prior.

 

Given we were discussing whether or not the Chantry would condone said seers being illegal mages and abominations and what have you.

 

Wasn't aware it mentioned the Qun still being actively practiced in the dragon age though.

[Master Warder Z_]

Vol 1, page 80

 

Thank you.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah i was aware of that codex entry, in fact it was mentioned a few times just prior.

 

Given we were discussing whether or not the Chantry would condone said seers being illegal mages and abominations and what have you.

 

Wasn't aware it mentioned the Qun still being actively practiced in the dragon age though.

Yep.  I know that even Isabela's mother converted to the Qun.  

 

 

Thank you.

 

No problem.

[Cainhurst Crow]

From another thread.

Gotta love Otto's effect on people.

Would you mind clarifying this statement in the Uneven thread? I am curious about your viewpoint, but I don't want to get into it here.

Well, what I mean by that is that otto alrik has become something of a major polarizing figure within the dragon age community and really, from my point of view, one of the most prominent figures in the mage templar debate, even more so then anders. He is the originator of the "templars are rapist" fallacy that has been often used to denounce templars and templar order supporters. At the same time he also raises a lot of questions on oversight and proper procedure for mages, such as the fact he used the rite of tranqulity on harrowed mages, an originally illegal practice that seemed to become widely adopted in kirkwall later on. This breach of protocol opens a lot of questions on the trustworthiness of templars,and the chantry itself, who while they should have been able to curtail such behavior, were not able to do so. From a pro-templar side of things he is a one off, a bad cop, a rogue who was dealt with and that is the end of that. To the pro-mages he seems to be a rallying cry of how all their opposition thinks and behaves, an understanble if emotionally driven response.

Basically, I think Otto Alrik and his tranquil solution were the catalyst to a lot of the bitterness and now fully open and prominent hatred and loathing some in both sides of the camp have for each other for the rhetoric both sides use, as well as raising a lot of in game questions. So really he's one fo the few minor characters who has a bigger effect in and out of game then some of the main characters do.

[Grieving Natashina]

From another thread.


Well, what I mean by that is that otto alrik has become something of a major polarizing figure within the dragon age community and really, from my point of view, one of the most prominent figures in the mage templar debate, even more so then anders. He is the originator of the "templars are rapist" fallacy that has been often used to denounce templars and templar order supporters. At the same time he also raises a lot of questions on oversight and proper procedure for mages, such as the fact he used the rite of tranqulity on harrowed mages, an originally illegal practice that seemed to become widely adopted in kirkwall later on. This breach of protocol opens a lot of questions on the trustworthiness of templars,and the chantry itself, who while they should have been able to curtail such behavior, were not able to do so. From a pro-templar side of things he is a one off, a bad cop, a rogue who was dealt with and that is the end of that. To the pro-mages he seems to be a rallying cry of how all their opposition thinks and behaves, an understanble if emotionally driven response.

Basically, I think Otto Alrik and his tranquil solution were the catalyst to a lot of the bitterness and now fully open and prominent hatred and loathing some in both sides of the camp have for each other for the rhetoric both sides use, as well as raising a lot of in game questions. So really he's one fo the few minor characters who has a bigger effect in and out of game then some of the main characters do.

Excellent point.  Thanks for bringing that in this thread.  The Elf Inquisitor thread is already getting a little toxic, and I knew that this point would flare all sorts of crap up on there.  It might here too, but at least it'll be more on topic.

[Master Warder Z_]

Yep.  I know that even Isabela's mother converted to the Qun.  

 

Bloody Heathens  I knew the Qunari still had bastions in Thedas mind you, i just didn't know non oxmen followed the faith outside of those walls.

 

Being given leave to establish settlements on a continent they signed off in the accord they wouldn't defile with their presence any further.

 

Least i assume they were given leave to settle in Rivain and the Anderfels.

 

Better have been gonna burn those twig forts down otherwise.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Isabela's got a lot of issues with the qun, that's for sure. Some really deep, emotional, and psychological issues.

Her biggest nightmare is being part of the qun like her mother. If that doesn't speak volumes on her character and such, I don't know what does.

[Grieving Natashina]

Odd, something I knew from the lore that you didn't.  I thought you knew that about Isabela's mother.  That's why Isabela was sold into marriage; she refused to convert to the Qun.  It's in the comic Those Who Speak.

 

Edit: In the comic Until We Sleep, that was Isabela's Fade dream/nightmare.  She was a fierce and devoted solider of the Qun in that dream, even attacking Varric when she saw him.  They snapped her out of it and she seemed rather horrified at what she had done in her dream.

 

Note to self: Keep Isabela out of the Fade at all costs.  It's never good for her.

[Master Warder Z_]

I haven't read those comics in a long while, i didn't care overly for the universe it was set in.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She still would have been a Rivaini version of Qunari though. They don't count as "real" Qunari in the eyes of the Ariqun.

 

And as a side note, that whole reveal about Isebella's mother never really made a lot of sense to me.

[TK514]

Note to self: Keep Isabela out of the Fade at all costs.  It's never good for her.

She likes big boats, and she can not lie.

[Grieving Natashina]

<shrug> Don't mind me, I'm just the messenger.  It still counts towards BioWare's cannon, but it's like a lot of the EU for me: I don't need it for the story and I can ignore it if I so choose.  I did that with Anders' short story: I thought it was stupid, abrupt and made no sense.  Since it doesn't affect my game either way, I choose to disregard it.

 

The only point for certain that can be taken from that is that there is (or was, a lot has changed in a short amount of time) a peaceful and active Qun community in Rivain.

 

Edit: @TK  That's actually my favorite Fade betrayal.  I usually play a Snark!Hawke, so I love the response she gives when she sees Bela again at the Hanged Man:

 

Hawke: I like big boats.  I cannot lie.  Really Isabela?

 

Isabela: Well, it's true!

[Cainhurst Crow]

She likes big boats, and she can not lie.

Well that something people can't deny.