8640 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Yeah, that kind of backfired for ol' Dummy there.

 

I dunno, from the Legacy DLC and Cory it seems like Dumat knew what would happen if they went in

[Grieving Natashina]

It would appear to be the Qunari.

Bingo.  Really, Tevinter has been doing an excellent job of preventing the Qunari from getting more of a foothold in the Thedas mainland.  I'm not saying that the rulers of Tevinter are great guys by any stretch, but they have been useful in this regard.

 

@Ares  I'd had the same thought too, but I don't think Dumat planned on getting killed. 

[The Hierophant]

Cory confirmed the Chantry version?  Huh.  
 
The Chantry version says that the magisters blackened the City.  Cory says it was blackened before they arrived.
 
So no, I'm not believing either of them.  They both are more than ready to manipulate the truth to their own ends.
 
Oh and Anders didn't say he believed the Chantry.  He only believed that Cory really a magister, not that Cory was 100% telling the truth about the Golden/Black City.

Corypheus being deceitful makes no sense when you consider that he has just awoken from stasis, experienced a period of memory loss of the events after being transformed and before his capture, is ignorant of Thedas' condemnation towards his actions which should result in him having no reason to hide his involvement. The guy had nothing to hide as he despaired over what he perceived as Dumat's betrayal.

The only detail the Chantry got wrong is that the GC infected the magisters instead, while the Maker's existence, involvement in the incident, and it's motives for doing so are up for debate.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Bingo.  Really, Tevinter has been doing an excellent job of preventing the Qunari from getting more of a foothold in the Thedas mainland.  I'm not saying that the rulers of Tevinter are great guys by any stretch, but they have been useful in this regard.

The fact the Qunari don't even seem to be trying helps too.  

[AresKeith]

 

@Ares  I'd had the same thought too, but I don't think Dumat planned on getting killed. 

 

Well sure not the getting killed part , but everything else

 

Which still goes to my small theory that He might not be truly dead

[The Hierophant]

Personally I think Dumat himself with the help of the Magisters did bring it

I think Dumat set the magisters up to be infected so that they'd become the OGs slaves and free them.

[MisterJB]

It would appear to be the Qunari.

That five year old who was ritualistically sacrificed at a party to entertain the guests certainly did put an hamper to the Qunari plans.

[AresKeith]

I think Dumat set the magisters up to be infected so that they'd become the OGs slaves and free them.

 

Yep, promised them power and the magisters let their greed and lust for power get the better of them

[EmissaryofLies]

That five year old who was ritualistically sacrificed at a party to entertain the guests certainly did put an hamper to the Qunari plans.

 

And I'm sure the sexual abuse of Fiona had something to do with protecting Thedas from magisters.

[Grieving Natashina]

Corypheus being deceitful makes no sense when you consider that he has just awoken from stasis, experienced a period of memory loss of the events after being transformed and before his capture, is ignorant of Thedas' condemnation towards his actions which should result in him having no reason to hide his involvement. The guy had nothing to hide as he despaired over what he perceived as Dumat's betrayal.

 

 

Considering that I think Corypheus was faking even his confusion, I will still state that he could have been lying.  For someone that was supposedly "completely disoriented" a few minutes prior, he (and yes, I think he survived via one of the Wardens) seemed to be with it a few minutes later.

The only detail the Chantry got wrong is that the GC infected the magisters instead, while the Maker's existence, involvement in the incident, and it's motives for doing so are up for debate.

 

 

We can't say if that's the only detail the Chantry got wrong.  Again, we have two rather sketchy accounts of the whole thing and two unreliable sources does not mean it's the truth.  While I'm sure both have grains of truth to them, I'm not going to say either of them is right.

[EmissaryofLies]

Rap music is ultimately responsible.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

So he was trapped in an ancient prison for 1100 years and the first thing he does is make up a fake story about himself invading the Black City, that just coincidentally almost exactly matches the theology of a religious organization that didn't even exist at the time he was imprisoned, to people he was about to try to kill?

[GhostNappa]

 

 

Considering that I think Corypheus was faking even his confusion, I will still state that he could have been lying.  For someone that was supposedly "completely disoriented" a few minutes prior, he (and yes, I think he survived via one of the Wardens) seemed to be with it a few minutes later.

Why would he be faking his confusion?

[Grieving Natashina]

And thank you both to MisterJB and Emissary for reaffirming my stance as  the pro-Compromise party.

 

That's pretty sick.  I'm not going to even pretend that one is better than the other: Both examples given out of Asunder are horrible.   It just proves even further to me that claiming Templars are better than mages or vice versa is a flat out lie.  

 

@Flaming: Oh, maybe to act weak and confused to lure in the Wardens further into his trap once he was released?  To try to see if Hawke and company think's he is weaker than he is before the gloves come off?  Because I don't believe he was ever truly asleep?

 

I really also don't believe the crap I was fed in Legacy about "oh, he doesn't realize he's doing putting out a Calling."  Yeah, sure.  The three sources for that: A Mage Warden, which the codex about Corypheus states is the most vulnerable to his Calling.  The author of the codex and a Warden Commander so Tainted that he really shouldn't be alive.

 

I know that this is head cannon on my part, but until we get more accounts outside of Cory and Chantry's regarding the Blight, I'm sticking to my opinion about him faking his confusion.

[Master Warder Z_]

And I'm sure the sexual abuse of Fiona had something to do with protecting Thedas from magisters.

 

Probably.

 

Odder things have happened in DA.

 

If nothing else it turned her more so into a stereotypical mary sue

[Master Warder Z_]

And thank you both to MisterJB and Emissary for reaffirming my stance as a the pro-Compromise party.

 

That's pretty sick.  I'm not going to even pretend that one is better than the other: Both examples given out of Asunder are horrible.   It just proves even further to me that claiming Templars are better than mages or vice versa is a flat out lie.  

 

But the Templars are better!

 

They stand between Thedas and becoming a second Imperium!

 

Admittedly there are issues that need to be buffed out...But its a far sight better then some mage driven dystopia that some folks want.

[MisterJB]

And I'm sure the sexual abuse of Fiona had something to do with protecting Thedas from magisters.

If I may remind you, the post I quoted was you asking why the Circle system got a pass.

Fiona's sexual abuse certainly did not help protect normal society from magical dominance but it was also not perpretated by the Chantry or Circle; she was raped by a noble.

[Master Warder Z_]

If I may remind you, the post I quoted was you asking why the Circle system got a pass.

Fiona's sexual abuse certainly did not help protect normal society from magical dominance but it was also not perpretated by the Chantry or Circle; she was raped by a noble.

 

While the boy was executed for his blood by members of the Senate and Nobility of the Imperium...Yeah i see you're point JB.

 

:/

[EmissaryofLies]

 

If I may remind you, the post I quoted was you asking why the Circle system got a pass.

Fiona's sexual abuse certainly did not help protect normal society from magical dominance but it was also not perpretated by the Chantry or Circle; she was raped by a noble.

An Orleisan noble, if you want to get semantic.

 

"Mundanes can have their Loghains all but help the darkspawn during a blight.They can have an institution like the White Chantry completely and utterly dehumanize mages to the point where there's a system to wipe them out and lobotomize them, take their kids away etc. But they get a pass because they don't need powers to do it?"

 

I lumped them all under the broad category of 'mundane'. I was asking why Mundanes got a pass. 

 

 

 

But I can overlook this in favor of:

I'm sure the sexual abuse suffered by Alain at Karras' hands was protecting the world from magisters.

[Grieving Natashina]

But the Templars are better!

 

They stand between Thedas and becoming a second Imperium!

 

Admittedly there are issues that need to be buffed out...But its a far sight better then some mage driven dystopia that some folks want.

No, the Templars are every bit as capable of being corrupted with a lust for power as mage.  Some of the examples from both the games and the EU make me sick.

 

It doesn't take magic to be cruel, monstrous and callous to others.  

 

Why the hell does everyone assume all mages everywhere want to rule the world?  Bethany, for instance, would have preferred a much quieter life.  Emele didn't have any plans of world domination by wanting to leave the Circle.  He wanted to get laid, and stand in the rain.  

 

That's a very far cry from a second Imperium.  We can't even assume that most mages would ever want another Imperium, so that's a really unfair blanket statement

 

Issues that need to be buffed out?  The Templars taking over would be every bit as dystopian as the mages taking over (no, I don't think the Chantry has completely taken over the world.  Not yet, just mostly.)   I don't like a One World, One Nation* mentality for Thedas.  If I wanted that, I'd go join the Qun. 

 

^{*if you get the reference, congrats!  You get a cookie.}

[Aimi]

Huh, history has taught me that Nero didn't "fiddle while Rome burned" nor start the fire.  There is more than a few accounts from the time that state that Nero opened his Emperial Gardens for his people.

 

One source?  Questionable.  Multiple sources?  Much more likely.

 

So far, we have only two sources for the origins of the Blight: A very confused and half awake Corypheus, and the Chantry's.  More accounts could shed some light into this.

 

There isn't anywhere in our history where we are directly punishing a group of people for something that they might have done 1000 years ago.  That bit of shame belongs to the Chantry of Thedas.

 

It's not about how many sources exist for a given event, but about analyzing those sources based on their context and what we know about them. Quellenkritik is king.

 

And we can't perform it in the Dragon Age games because we lack the sources and their context. We have a digest of some of the key points of a chronology, and we are apparently meant to understand that this chronology is an interpretation and therefore might be wrong. That's basically it. It's intentionally ambiguous.

 

And, for what it's worth, you're correct about Nero. Virtually no classical historian would seriously suggest that he caused the Great Fire of 64.

 

Efficient as in, it has not fulfilled what some would believe about free mages, i.e. that such a society is not technically possible without it ending badly. This is also the same Imperium that's currently at war with the Qunari, It's fair to say that they are in reasonable control of their society. If they were not, do you not believe that the Qunari would have defeated them?
 

First, I never claimed that it was 'more efficient'. Their success is due in large part to their slaves and their blood magic. Blood magic which is said to be corrupt/weaken the veil/summon demons. Not sure about your last point. But what's sure is that mages run that society and it is not in ruins.

 

You don't have to have mass blood magic rituals and slaves to emulate Tevinter. You only need a standing society ruled by mages. Which Tevinter is. They use extremely dangerous magic, yet they still stand. They are doing something correctly when it comes to handling magic.

Interestingly, the White Chantry doesn't seem to have a problem with 'means to an end' efficiency and championing human rights. The only rights that they seem to care for. They mirror Tevinter without the blood magic. I simply think it's possible to do the same with bm free mages.

 

That's not how I understand the Chantry's complaint against totally free mages, though. From what I know, they view mages as a threat to non-magic users and to their liberty, not as intrinsically incompetent fools incapable of governing any society whatsoever. And as far as that goes, the fact that Tevinter mages widely employ blood magic and are the most notorious slavers in Thedas certainly plays into the Chantry's narrative quite nicely.

 

I agree that it doesn't prove anything about how mages govern in general. The situation is deeply dependent on context; other mages, in other scenarios, might very easily govern in a different way, perhaps a better one. Tevinter in no way proves that magocracies suck any more than the history of Rivain demonstrates that societies ruled by non-magic users suck. As Tommy from Quincy might say, "NO ONE DENIES THIS." (Except, possibly, TKS over there.) But I would also suggest that it's not a particularly good example to point to when making the claim that magocracy "can work". I think that the possibility exists that it certainly could "work", but Tevinter is not the reason I think this is the case.

 

As to Tevinter's mages 'being in control of their society'...well...

 

What we know about the qunari invasion is clearly designed to parallel the attacks on the Byzantine Empire of historical late antiquity by the Muslim khilafas. The Empire was vast and powerful despite some military defeats and plagues and whatnot, but received a severe exogenous shock and was almost destroyed. Minrathous was threatened just as Constantinople was repeatedly. But both the Byzantine and Tevinter empires hung on, stabilized, and then, at least partially with the aid of crusades/exalted marches, were able to reclaim significant swathes of territory from their opponents.

 

This story is not entirely coherent with a fully modern academic interpretation of Byzantine history, but let that go. I mostly want to draw out a point about the Byzantine Empire, here. In 627, the empire possessed the most advanced and largest economy west of the Indus River, had the largest population, had structures of government that were as efficient as anything else in the world, and possessed a well-trained military forged in the fire of a recent war. (That war had also done severe damage to the military and economy and political structures of the empire, but even in light of this damage, in all such fields the Byzantines dwarfed basically all of their neighbors.)

 

Despite these colossal advantages, the Byzantine Empire was repeatedly defeated by the Umayyad khilafa until it was, as mentioned earlier, a shadow of its former self. The Umayyads did not possess numerical superiority over Byzantine armies in most cases. They were not qualitatively superior in a meaningful sense. They could not draw on a sizable population, or a robust economy. So why did they win? Contingency. Rolls of the dice ended up snake-eyes for the Byzantines, and all sixes for the Muslims, in many cases. Minor advantages created wedges that were driven wider and wider until by the middle of the eighth century the Byzantine Empire was clinging to a series of enclaves across the Mediterranean, whereas the new Abbasid khilafa ruled a realm that stretched from the Atlantic to Central Asia.

 

You can see where I'm going with this: the fact that Tevinter survived the qunari onslaught and has even regained some territory does not necessarily speak to institutional efficiency. It might be such an indicator, but there are so many other factors associated with the war against the qunari that it's difficult, if not impossible, to draw out what exactly is responsible for Tevinter's position at the moment from the sources we have.

 

Another common historical trope of the Byzantine Empire relates to the period during which the dynasty of the Komnenoi ruled. This was a period during which the Byzantine aristocracy - and even in some cases the great mass of the populace - became fantastically wealthy. For a time, in some ways, the military situation was more or less stable. But according to some historians of the empire, this only masked severe underlying problems that became evident once the empire stopped winning the lottery of genetics with competent military rulers. Warren Treadgold has described it as a period in which the state became decoupled from society. Apply that to Tevinter, except in reverse: it may be the case that even though Tevinter has survived and recaptured territory from a military perspective, society at home may be a total mess. Think of Ireland in the first half of the second millennium, or of Greece in the fifth century BC, or of the warlords of northern China after the fall of the Qing in 1911-12.

 

The point here is that one cannot make very many sweeping conclusions from the information we have about the war with the qunari. We simply do not know. It is meant to be ambiguous.

[MisterJB]

I'm sure the sexual abuse suffered by Alain at Karras' hands was protecting the world from magisters.

Abuse that he had to conceal for fear of punishment even in a very harsh Circle like Kirkwall's. In Tevinter, Magisters having sexual relations with their slaves is actually encouraged (World of Thedas).

Therefore, normal people didn't create a perfect society but their criminals are, at least, exactly that. Criminals who are acting outside of the social norms.

Whereas mages created one where there is not a single law that protects an entire caste of people.

 

Hey, remember the shopkeeper in Denerim's Alienage? He is a former Tevinter slave who ran to Ferelden and he can actually tell you how life in that Alienage is worth fighting for. Fenris is another who will tell you how Kirkwall is a free place compared to Minrathous. Then there's Feynriel, a mage, who actually begins to understand the Templars after spending some time in Tevinter.

Neither are saints but it's pretty obvious that, for all its inequalities, life in Southern Thedas is still leagues above everything Tevinter can offer to anyone who is not an extremely powerful mage.

[Master Warder Z_]

No, the Templars are every bit as capable of being corrupted with a lust for power as mage.  Some of the examples from both the games and the EU make me sick.

 

It doesn't take magic to be cruel, monstrous and callous to others.  

 

Why the hell does everyone assume all mages everywhere want to rule the world?  Bethany, for instance, would have preferred a much quieter life.  Emele didn't have any plans of world domination by wanting to leave the Circle.  He wanted to get laid, and stand in the rain.  

 

That's a very far cry from a second Imperium.  We can't even assume that most mages would ever want another Imperium, so that's a really unfair blanket statement

 

Issues that need to be buffed out?  The Templars taking over would be every bit as dystopian as the mages taking over (no, I don't think the Chantry has completely taken over the world.  Not yet, just mostly.)   I don't like a One World, One Nation* mentality for Thedas.  If I wanted that, I'd go join the Qun. 

 

^{*if you get the reference, congrats!  You get a cookie.}

 

For every mage with decent intentions you have a dozen more that would slit their wrists and take it from a fade construct for the barest hint of power, You claim the Templars are capable of mage levels of cruelty? Perhaps, But their crimes are limited to the realms of men, they cannot sap your will from you and they cannot resurrect the dead to assault the living, they cannot except under odd circumstance become possessed and in finality, Even those of pure intention are not shielded from the taint of their blood.

 

Magic is a lure, not only to demons but base human temptation, Within normal men this can result in mayhem and atrocities, within Mage hands? It can become a living pit of fire. I do not assume mages wish to rule, i assume them to be as base and corrupt as every one else :/ 

 

To the other point...

 

The Qunari are too vilified to pull it off with out military invasion, even then you would have insurrections and uprisings against it, no you would need the Chantry for a single thedosian state system.

 

One world, one Nation, One people: Under the right Leadership and Dogma peace and stability could reign supreme with all threats to said peace, stability and power of the overlor-i mean duly appointed leader for life being quashed with out mercy or resignation.

 

My Vision will be absolute! 

 

God has spoken!

[EmissaryofLies]

@ Sarantapechaina

 

Great post.

 

There are a lot of maybes, and uncertainties as it pertains to Tevinter. However, it is fair to say that they defy typical Templar beliefs that a mage ruled society isn't possible or sustainable due to abominations/blood magic or in general 'the dangers of magic'. It could be very well be a mess, though I have no reason to believe so. However I do find it strange that despite all of Fenris' claims, he never says or insinuates that the Imperium is in ruins. Granted he is a slave, he's the closest thing we have outside of codex entries as a source on Tevinter. He speaks badly about the magisters and everything else but he doesn't give us anything to indicate that the Imperium is weak. You can also claim that this is not evidence that it's strong. However, there is one undeniable fact underneath all of this: Mages rule Tevinter, Tevinter still stands. The fact that Feynriel writes the Champion of Kirkwall a letter if you send him there is evidence of the claim being true. Despite not knowing too much more about the place, we can say that they're 'efficient' enough to throw resources at the Qunari war and go toe to toe with them.

 

Who's say how Tevinter would function or fare if they were not currently in a war? They use blood magic and who knows what other forms of 'illegal' magic and yet they have not imploded, they are not overrun with abominations, they still stand, they still function. They may be morally bankrupt, but what they've accomplished as a mage ruled society is nothing short of incredible.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AresKeith]

Holy wall of text batman