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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#6451
TheKomandorShepard

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No, the Templars are every bit as capable of being corrupted with a lust for power as mage.  Some of the examples from both the games and the EU make me sick.

 

It doesn't take magic to be cruel, monstrous and callous to others.  

 

Why the hell does everyone assume all mages everywhere want to rule the world?  Bethany, for instance, would have preferred a much quieter life.  Emele didn't have any plans of world domination by wanting to leave the Circle.  He wanted to get laid, and stand in the rain.  

 

That's a very far cry from a second Imperium.  We can't even assume that most mages would ever want another Imperium, so that's a really unfair blanket statement

 

Issues that need to be buffed out?  The Templars taking over would be every bit as dystopian as the mages taking over (no, I don't think the Chantry has completely taken over the world.  Not yet, just mostly.)   I don't like a One World, One Nation* mentality for Thedas.  If I wanted that, I'd go join the Qun. 

 

*if you get the reference, congrats!  You get a cookie. :P

 

Hm but templars are better if you like or not even if ultimately we will bring conflict into evil vs evil templars will be ligher shade of black because first their goal is protect world from destruction and maitain order will mages reperesent destruction , death and suffering without any goal... 

 

Second templars weren't even as half corrupted as mages in kirkwall and that was worst of both sides well i can live with 2 corrupted templars population as well but not with abomnations horde.

 

Tevinter? human nature? powers that allow that? i think tevinter well both tevinter empires shows what will happen whem mages get political power... every person want improve their life if they will do that they will want more and so it goes...

 

And no templars can't take over the world their goal is control mages so no they will never have desire to rule normal peoples only to protect them...



#6452
MisterJB

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There isn't anywhere in our history where we are directly punishing a group of people for something that they might have done 1000 years ago.  That bit of shame belongs to the Chantry of Thedas.

The Circle is about prevention, not punishment. They place restrictions upon the freedoms of mages in order to account for the danger they pose much like the state places restrictions upon the freedoms of normal people like you and me to account for the danger we might pose. Every person in society has their freedoms restricted, it's what the law is for, it's what allows us to coexist.

 

You can claim that the Chantry goes too far but you can't claim that they're doing it to punishmages,



#6453
Master Warder Z_

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@ Sarantapechaina

 

Great post.

 

There are a lot of maybes, and uncertainties as it pertains to Tevinter. However, it is fair to say that they defy typical Templar beliefs that a mage ruled society isn't possible or sustainable due to abominations/blood magic or in general 'the dangers of magic'. It could be very well be a mess, though I have no reason to believe so. However I do find it strange that despite all of Fenris' claims, he never says or insinuates that the Imperium is in ruins. Granted he is a slave, he's the closest thing we have outside of codex entries as a source on Tevinter. He speaks badly about the magisters and everything else but he doesn't give us anything to indicate that the Imperium is weak. You can also claim that this is not evidence that it's strong. However, there is one undeniable fact underneath all of this: Mages rule Tevinter, Tevinter still stands. The fact that Feynriel writes the Champion of Kirkwall a letter if you send him there is evidence of the claim being true. Despite not knowing too much more about the place, we can say that they're 'efficient' enough to throw resources at the Qunari war and go toe to toe with them.

 

Who's say how Tevinter would function or fare if they were not currently in a war? They use blood magic and who knows what other forms of 'illegal' magic and yet they have not imploded, they are not overrun with abominations, they still stand, they still function. They may be morally bankrupt, but what they've accomplished as a mage ruled society is nothing short of incredible.

 

 

 

 


 

 

The reasoning for their continued existence is despite their utter corruptness they aren't ineptly stupid when it comes to handling matters of in some respects, namely their circle system both still employing templars (some of whom even use lyrium although its a rarity there) And both the rite of annulment and tranquility, so when faced with the threat of "abominations" rampaging the countryside you could very well argue they may in fact HAVE that issue, its just they you know, kill them all but it comes to that.

 

Honestly if there is anything salvageable from the Imperium its that they still maintain the usefulness of both the rites and Templars, that's something the Pro Mage camp need acknowledge when discussing the Imperium.

 

For Historical parallels of governance? I won't argue given the Byzantine/Muslim has already been argued and that's about the only comparable example that comes to mind, but given so much of the Imperium is debatable given mixed answers in Lore, Coded and Gameplay ultimately its up to the individual in how they view the Imperium, I just thought the point of the circle need be made.

 

So its not that magically don't have Abominations, I'd argue given the atmosphere over there they likely have more then any other civilized people in Thedas put together, But that doesn't mean they aren't incapable of surviving if they took needed steps.



#6454
EmissaryofLies

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Neither are saints but it's pretty obvious that, for all its inequalities, life in Southern Thedas is still leagues above everything Tevinter can offer to anyone who is not an extremely powerful mage.

 

True, but:

They're both covered in filth, just because one smells worse than the other does not diminish the bad smell.

 

To be clear, I am not for Tevinter's evil. I am for a functioning, free, and yes, mage ruled society without all of the evils of Tevinter. I am not deluded as to believe that it will not have its own corruption. But I am not so foolish as to believe that it will automatically equal the worst of Tevinter no matter what. Especially when we already have free mages that disprove such a notion.

 

It's like arguing that Cullen is ok because Meredith is that much worse. Neither deserve a pass.



#6455
MisterJB

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True, but:

They're both covered in filth, just because one smells worse than the other does not diminish the bad smell.

 

To be clear, I am not for Tevinter's evil. I am for a functioning, free, and yes, mage ruled society without all of the evils of Tevinter. I am not deluded as to believe that it will not have its own corruption. But I am not so foolish as to believe that it will automatically equal the worst of Tevinter no matter what. Especially when we already have free mages that disprove such a notion.

 

It's like arguing that Cullen is ok because Meredith is that much worse. Neither deserve a pass.

By making it mage ruled you are already succumbing to one of the evils of Tevinter which is that normal people are second class citizens to the mages who rule not due to merit but an accident of birth which grants no real qualifications to a leadership position.

And yet, the same happens in Southern Thedas with the nobles but, to use your own words, "Neither deserve a pass."

 

And Cullen is a very good Templar.



#6456
EmissaryofLies

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The reasoning for their continued existence is despite their utter corruptness they aren't ineptly stupid when it comes to handling matters of in some respects, namely their circle system both still employing templars (some of whom even use lyrium although its a rarity there) And both the rite of annulment and tranquility, so when faced with the threat of "abominations" rampaging the countryside you could very well argue they may in fact HAVE that issue, its just they you know, kill them all but it comes to that.

 

Honestly if there is anything salvageable from the Imperium its that they still maintain the usefulness of both the rites and Templars, that's something the Pro Mage camp need acknowledge when discussing the Imperium.

 

For Historical parallels of governance? I won't argue given the Byzantine/Muslim has already been argued and that's about the only comparable example that comes to mind, but given so much of the Imperium is debatable given mixed answers in Lore, Coded and Gameplay ultimately its up to the individual in how they view the Imperium, I just thought the point of the circle need be made.

 

So its not that magically don't have Abominations, I'd argue given the atmosphere over there they likely have more then any other civilized people in Thedas put together, But that doesn't mean they aren't incapable of surviving if they took needed steps.

 

Of course they have abominations. Though the two people whom the PC knows that have been or are in Tevinter never even bring them up. That doesn't prove anything emphatically. Though Fenris used every single argument in the book against mages and Tevinter and he doesn't think to mention how utterly chaotic and unlivable it all is? I find that most curious. And I'll acknowlege the templars, though it changes absolutely nothing.

 

It is obviously not paradise, but it is also not the desolate, out of control, wasteland that some would believe it to be.



#6457
Grieving Natashina

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The Circle is about prevention, not punishment. They place restrictions upon the freedoms of mages in order to account for the danger they pose much like the state places restrictions upon the freedoms of normal people like you and me to account for the danger we might pose. Every person in society has their freedoms restricted, it's what the law is for, it's what allows us to coexist.

 

You can claim that the Chantry goes too far but you can't claim that they're doing it to punishmages,

Then treat the Templars the same way.  They can have a serious addiction to lyrium that's been proven to affect their judgement, they can let power go straight to their head and have succumbed to the temptation of demons.  I'm not even talking Wilmod; I'm talking about the Templar enslaved by the desire demon during Broken Circle.  

 

I don't think a demon-controlled Templar is any safer for Thedas than an abomination.  As I've stated in previous threads, all it takes is a lust of power and a lack of morals and poof!  You're now as much of a dangerous monster as an abomination, if not more so.  The true ruler of most of Thedas, the Chantry, is going to back you up.  All you have to say as a Templar to get away with almost anything is "They tried to use blood magic on me."

 

It's the law, but the law is wrong and must be changed.  Laws that have failed as badly as the Circle system has need to be change.  There is no going back to the way things were.  Might as well look towards other solutions.

 

I do think the Chantry is continuing to punish mages.  They haven't even tried to come up with a better system for 1000 years, and you think that isn't a punishment?  Mages are still being punished for the sins that a few jerks made a millennia ago.  Yes, I believe that this constant restriction on personal freedom is a punishment.  Bethany alone is proof that the Circles as an internment system aren't needed.  A good teacher is much more important.  The Circles didn't prevent Uldred from going full on crazy.  The mages really don't need a bunch of drug addicts telling them that an abomination is dangerous.  They don't need the Chantry droning on and on about "magic serving man," while they treat the mages as useful tools that are to be set aside or discarded as needed.  



#6458
TheKomandorShepard

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Then treat the Templars the same way.  They can have a serious addiction to lyrium that's been proven to affect their judgement, they can let power go straight to their head and have succumbed to the temptation of demons.  I'm not even talking Wilmod; I'm talking about the Templar enslaved by the desire demon during Broken Circle.  

 

I don't think a demon-controlled Templar is any safer for Thedas than an abomination.  As I've stated in previous threads, all it takes is a lust of power and a lack of morals and poof!  You're now as much of a dangerous monster as an abomination, if not more so.  The true ruler of most of Thedas, the Chantry, is going to back you up.  All you have to say as a Templar to get away with almost anything is "They tried to use blood magic on me."

 

It's the law, but the law is wrong and must be changed.  Laws that have failed as badly as the Circle system has need to be change.  There is no going back to the way things were.  Might as well look towards other solutions.

 

I do think the Chantry is continuing to punish mages.  They haven't even tried to come up with a better system for 1000 years, and you think that isn't a punishment?  Mages are still being punished for the sins that a few jerks made a millennia ago.  Yes, I believe that this constant restriction on personal freedom is a punishment.  Bethany alone is proof that the Circles as an internment system aren't needed.  A good teacher is much more important.  The Circles didn't prevent Uldred from going full on crazy.   Mages can police their own.  They really don't need a bunch of drug addicts telling them that an abomination is dangerous.  They don't need the Chantry droning on and on about "magic serving man."  

 

First templars never succumbed to demons as they can't be possessed unlles demon is already in thedas or it is enforced by mage so nope templars aren't smiliar to mages...

 

The only wrong law is law that doesn't work if you talk about morality as i said it is your point of view that law is wrong and not everyone see that way...

 

No chantry isn't doing that as i said many times chantry would chop mages for everything they did and they will do and yet they gave them life in luxury so they have life better than 85 % of thedas.And no main character with plot armor isn't good example to point that system is bad sure it work bad but still such character isn't prove. Of course they can see tevinter and consequences of that...



#6459
EmissaryofLies

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By making it mage ruled you are already succumbing to one of the evils of Tevinter which is that normal people are second class citizens to the mages who rule not due to merit but an accident of birth which grants no real qualifications to a leadership position. And yet, the same happens in Southern Thedas with the nobles but, to use your own words, "Neither deserve a pass."
 
And Cullen is a very good Templar.


Mage rule does not equivocate evil and you're describing the mundanes to a T.

 

And yes, neither deserve a pass. So Andrastrians can let the mages out of their cages or they can get out of the way of a mage ruled society. It does not deserve a pass but if it's the only way to for mages to be free, so be it.

 

Cullen doesn't even see the mages as people, merely weapons. He also sees tranquility as a mercy iirc.

 

Good templar? Doesn't Hawke have to do his job for him with the exposure and death of Tahrone because he can't handle talking to  a couple of brothel wenches? Doesn't he unflinchingly follow Meredith even into Act III and only takes a stand when she threatens the champ? And before that, wasn't he subdued by Uldred in Fereldan?

 

I see a Templar, not a good one by any means.

 

Edit: And wasn't he promoted in Kirkwall mostly because he shared beliefs with Meredith?



#6460
Aimi

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Holy wall of text batman

 

If brevity is the soul of wit, I am one of the unfunniest people ever. :(


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#6461
Master Warder Z_

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Mage rule does not equivocate evil and you're describing the mundanes to a T.

 

And yes, neither deserve a pass. So Andrastrians can let the mages out of their cages or they can get out of the way of a mage ruled society. It does not deserve a pass but if it's the only way to for mages to be free, so be it.

 

And people wonder why i am against this **** ._.

 

It's all too easy for it to be the "Imperium or the highway" with you lot.


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#6462
EmissaryofLies

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And people wonder why i am against this **** ._.

 

It's all too easy for it to be the "Imperium or the highway" with you lot.

 

And it's all to easy for you lot to justify and excuse anything done to mages no matter how heinous, cus 'tection modanes. As if they're even deserving of it.


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#6463
AresKeith

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And it's all to easy for you lot to justify and excuse anything done to mages no matter how heinous, cus 'tection modanes. As if they're even deserving of it.

 

MWZ acknowledges people like Alrik as problems to be handled



#6464
Senya

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Personally, I want he Circle to be reformed with both groups purged of corruption. People like Meredith and Orsino cannot be allowed to be in charge.

 

However, when it's a forced choice between the needs of the many and the needs of the few, then the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. That is why restrictions on freedom is put in place in our society.



#6465
EmissaryofLies

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MWZ acknowledges people like Alrik as problems to be handled

 

That's great for MWZ, tell me when he gets on children of mages being ripped away and given to the Chantry. Oh and tell me when he gets on not being allowed mobility except in rare circumstances for a very small minority. Also, if you could tell me when he gets on the harrowing not being an allegory of being thrown to the wolves, that'd be great.

 

And Alrik is the symptom of an underlying illness.



#6466
AresKeith

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That's great for MWZ, tell me when he gets on children of mages being ripped away and given to the Chantry. Oh and tell me when he gets on not being allowed mobility except in rare circumstances for a very small minority. Also, if you could tell me when he gets on the harrowing not being an allegory of being thrown to the wolves, that'd be great.

 

And Alrik is the symptom of an underlying illness.

 

Maybe because the Circle is kinda dangerous for newborn children, and the harrowing is pretty much a test to see if the mages are capable of resisting demon possesion


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#6467
Grieving Natashina

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And it's all to easy for you lot to justify and excuse anything done to mages no matter how heinous, cus 'tection modanes. As if they're even deserving of it.

This, right here, is why some of us are moderates.  Both sides are so silly sometimes.


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#6468
Hellion Rex

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This, right here, is why some of us are moderates.  Both sides are so silly sometimes.

Not silly. Merely passionate. We're not that bad.



#6469
Master Warder Z_

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This, right here, is why some of us are moderates.  Both sides are so silly sometimes.

 

Defending those that make up the majority of the population when they do not posses the means to do it themselves is silly?

 

:P We have laws, limitations and regulations for our societies in reality that prevent the disintegration of social order and stability, this is merely a needed step in an extreme situation when you toss in some people literally being able to conjure flames out of their hands.


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#6470
Xilizhra

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This, right here, is why some of us are moderates.  Both sides are so silly sometimes.

And you've been drawn in.

 

To be honest, I don't even know if I want to continue. Not because I've lost any passion, but because this debate's been going on for three years and practically nothing new has ever been said.


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#6471
EmissaryofLies

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Maybe because the Circle is kinda dangerous for newborn children, and the harrowing is pretty much a test to see if the mages are capable of resisting demon possesion

 

The only thing Wynne knew was that she had a son and he was given to the Chantry. I wonder if she even got fifteen minutes with the lad. Not to mention that you hardly ever hear of mages being pregnant. Seems extremely rare. I also remember Anders claiming that mages had to be sneaky about satisfying needs , so it's safe to say that it is 'encouraged' for mages to be cellibate. Which also ties into the Templar Big Brother concept of the circles.

 

Then there's Flemeth, Malcolm and the Dalish to list a few examples, no harrowing required there. You want to tell me that in a thousand years the uncaring sods couldn't have come up with a better way to test 'resistance against demon possession'?

 

But of course every bit of this can be written off as 'necessary' simply because it aint happening to those oh so precious flintbanging, elf slaughtering, civil war startin' mundanes.



#6472
MisterJB

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Then treat the Templars the same way.  They can have a serious addiction to lyrium that's been proven to affect their judgement, they can let power go straight to their head and have succumbed to the temptation of demons.  I'm not even talking Wilmod; I'm talking about the Templar enslaved by the desire demon during Broken Circle.  

 

I don't think a demon-controlled Templar is any safer for Thedas than an abomination.  As I've stated in previous threads, all it takes is a lust of power and a lack of morals and poof!  You're now as much of a dangerous monster as an abomination, if not more so.  The true ruler of most of Thedas, the Chantry, is going to back you up.  All you have to say as a Templar to get away with almost anything is "They tried to use blood magic on me."

 

It's the law, but the law is wrong and must be changed.  Laws that have failed as badly as the Circle system has need to be change.  There is no going back to the way things were.  Might as well look towards other solutions.

 

I do think the Chantry is continuing to punish mages.  They haven't even tried to come up with a better system for 1000 years, and you think that isn't a punishment?  Mages are still being punished for the sins that a few jerks made a millennia ago.  Yes, I believe that this constant restriction on personal freedom is a punishment.  Bethany alone is proof that the Circles as an internment system aren't needed.  A good teacher is much more important.  The Circles didn't prevent Uldred from going full on crazy.  The mages really don't need a bunch of drug addicts telling them that an abomination is dangerous.  They don't need the Chantry droning on and on about "magic serving man," while they treat the mages as useful tools that are to be set aside or discarded as needed.  

Ok,guess I'll start from the beginning.

 

1- Templars and laws.
The reason mages are treated differently from normal people does not stem from a diminished moral character from their part but rather from an increased threat. In society, every single person has his or her freedoms restricted from birth due to the inherent threat human beings pose to each other; it's what the law exists for, to tell us what we can't do and to punish us if we do those things in order to discourage others from commiting.

And these restrictions apply to all independently of whether they have given evidence of being harmful or not; they apply to all because we all have the potential to cause harm to others. Now, in our societies these restrictions can be equal because we are equal. Maybe not socially but physically; we can all pick up a gun and start shooting.

In Thedas, this is not true. Mages are much more dangerous to society at large than anyone else and they can be dangerous even without meaning to such as in case of Abominations. This is why Templars and normal people in general are not treated the same as mages; because altough they are just as corruptible, their threats are much more easily containable.

 

2-Mages and the danger they pose.

The dangers of magic are threefold.

 

1- Blood magic and mind control.

This should be self-explanatory. Mind control is a terrifying ability; how can non-mages be treated as equals when mages can easily control their minds to do whatever they please and even erase memories? How can it be proven a crime was even commited? How can it be proven the reason that noble is promoting mage interests is not because he has been controlled by blood magic? How can it be fought?

You can claim that there are moral mages who would not do these things and that is true but there are also very immoral mages who would do just that; how can we tell which from which?

 

And of course, morality does not matter when it comes to...

 

2-Abominations. Abominations can be created by something as banal as stress, as mundane as losing one's wife. All it takes is a slip and suddenly mages are a weapon of mass destruction in the hands of creatures that wish for nothing but to cause suffering.

And there is simply no avoiding this; everyone's life is stressfull; even the most moral and kind person can be pushed to the edge. If mages live outside of the Circle, some will become Abominations and thousands of people will die. All of this is avoidable by containing mages.

Yes, it is true that this did not prevent Uldred from becoming an Abomination but the fact it ocurred inside the Circle prevented untold destruction. Not a single civillian lost his/her life to Uldred's minions because Uldred became an Abomination in an isolated area where he was surrounded by fortifications, natural defenses and armed soldiers trained to deal with his ilk. The Circle worked in that situation.

 

And Abominations are not the worst of it. Oh no, the worst is...

 

3-Magic is an advantage.

First of all, let us extablish one thing. We can agree that a society dominated by mages where normals are second class citizens is a bad thing, correct.

And yet, that is the case of every single non-Andrastian society. The Dalish are ruled by their Keepers who are always mages. The rivaini are rulled by a council of Seers, Tevinter has the Magisters, the Chasind have their shaman. All societies where mages are free and in every single one of them, mages became the dominant class. There is not a single example of a society where mages were free and did not extablish themselves as rulers.

 

This is because societies are, inevitably, competitive. And magic is an advantage, a tool that allows those who possess it to place themselves above those who do not. Now, I am sure that not every mage becomes a ruler; because it does not wish to play these games, for one; but every one wishes to ellevate their quality of life; this is not something immortal so, just because there are good mages like Bethany  will not prevent this; and this includes the mages. And as they do so, it is inevitable that non-mages become unable to compete with their magical counterparts which will lead that more and more political powers is placed in the hands of mages which will lead to mages becoming the dominant social class.This will not stem from a desire to extablish a second Tevinter but simply because society is competitive.

And once they are entrenched there, non-mages will live in the manner mages wish for them to live and it will be extremely difficult to dislodge them.

This is yet another reason the Circle exists.

 

In conclusion: are mages more falible than any other human being? No, but the problem is that they also do not have a superior moral character either.

Freedom for mages will lead to magical accidents, Abominations and, eventuall, mage supremacism. The Circle averts this.


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#6473
Grieving Natashina

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I've been drawn in?  To the debate, sure.  To a side?  Um, nope, sorry.  I still see the perspectives for mages and templars.  Sorry, but I'm not going to pick a side when both sides are so screwed up.

 

As I've said before, I'm on the side of anti-Demon/anti-Veil tears.  Not pro-Mage, not pro-Templar and I never will be.



#6474
AresKeith

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Not silly. Merely passionate. We're not that bad.

 

Well you're not, but the others can't say for such



#6475
AresKeith

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Then there's Flemeth, Malcolm 

 

Ummm both Flemeth and Malcolm put their children throw the harrowing


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