8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Grieving Natashina]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

And you just proved my point.

I agree.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Starsyn wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

And you just proved my point.

I agree.

Well if you agree perhaps you will explain me which point and where...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Starsyn wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

And you just proved my point.

I agree.

Don't explain it. Let's see if he can figure it out for himself.

[Grieving Natashina]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

And you just proved my point.

I agree.

Don't explain it. Let's see if he can figure it out for himself.

I like the way you think. :innocent:

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Starsyn wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

And you just proved my point.

I agree.

Don't explain it. Let's see if he can figure it out for himself.

You lost argument with me what your argument proved that im right and figure that good luck

[Hanako Ikezawa]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

You lost argument with me what your argument proved that im right and figure that good luck

No. I'm just stopping trying to argue with you. An unwinnable argument is not the same as a lost one.

[Arcanis]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Chaoticos wrote...

IMHO there where three major people (+ their direct supporters ofc) to blame for the events:

1. Fiona (+Adrian), the Grand Enchanter: She was not interested in the normal people, she just
cared for the mages, she wanted total freedom. She refused any compromise. She even refuses
to actually accept ANY arguments against her position.

2. Lambert, Lord Seeker: Again, no interest in any compromise what-so-ever. Thanks to
his memorys of Tevinter he believes that every mage is a criminal once "unshackled" and
thus must be restrained for his/her own good. He is a Templer-hardliner who dismisses every
opposing argument as nativity - and this is never a good base.

3. Justinia, white Divine: She completly underestimates the ..feriocity of Lamberts & Fionas
believes. She wants a rather drastic revolution -instead of a gradual improvement- and thinks
tricking the Templars into them is going to work -as if they were some nobles of the orlesian
court. She is completly unable to calm the two hardliner and tries a modernization instead.

Seeing you put the blame on the leader of each faction reminded me of this: 

Nice link, thank you
But -at least in my opinion- that is the point:
If you lead you are responsible. Being a leader is not just a fancy title, it means
being responsible.

While I can understand where Fiona and Lambert come from, I think they are going
way to far. But the one group that should work towards the compromise between
extrem lenience (Lambert) and extreme freedom (Fiona) should have been the chantry,
but Justinia thought in terms of the Orlesian Grand Game. She wasn't seeking a compromise,
she had an idea (more or less) and pursued that. Maybe she should have called for Lambert
and Fiona in a (more or less) private audience, let them discuss so that their would be a
possible middle way - instead she worked with Wynne and planned to trick the templars into
a specific outcome and ignoring the position of the libertarians altogather.
Such tactics may work on political grounds, but not in a clash between philosophies.

Well I'll stop rambling now, since the discussions don't really work most of the times,
after all most people here have already chose their side and made their arguments. ^^

Though I fear the compromise camp is rather small =/
There will be no peace without compromise -at least I believe so..
Have a nice day

[TheKomandorShepard]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

You lost argument with me what your argument proved that im right and figure that good luck

No. I'm just stopping trying to argue with you. An unwinnable argument is not the same as a lost one.

It was mockery

Simple we were arguing over 3 different things and many before you didn't say where i was wrong and where i proven your point and why...

I would just randomly jump out and write hah you proven my point without saying why and where then you would say wth

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 18 février 2014 - 09:53 .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Chaoticos wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

Chaoticos wrote...

IMHO there where three major people (+ their direct supporters ofc) to blame for the events:

1. Fiona (+Adrian), the Grand Enchanter: She was not interested in the normal people, she just
cared for the mages, she wanted total freedom. She refused any compromise. She even refuses
to actually accept ANY arguments against her position.

2. Lambert, Lord Seeker: Again, no interest in any compromise what-so-ever. Thanks to
his memorys of Tevinter he believes that every mage is a criminal once "unshackled" and
thus must be restrained for his/her own good. He is a Templer-hardliner who dismisses every
opposing argument as nativity - and this is never a good base.

3. Justinia, white Divine: She completly underestimates the ..feriocity of Lamberts & Fionas
believes. She wants a rather drastic revolution -instead of a gradual improvement- and thinks
tricking the Templars into them is going to work -as if they were some nobles of the orlesian
court. She is completly unable to calm the two hardliner and tries a modernization instead.

Seeing you put the blame on the leader of each faction reminded me of this: 

Nice link, thank you
But -at least in my opinion- that is the point:
If you lead you are responsible. Being a leader is not just a fancy title, it means
being responsible.

While I can understand where Fiona and Lambert come from, I think they are going
way to far. But the one group that should work towards the compromise between
extrem lenience (Lambert) and extreme freedom (Fiona) should have been the chantry,
but Justinia thought in terms of the Orlesian Grand Game. She wasn't seeking a compromise,
she had an idea (more or less) and pursued that. Maybe she should have called for Lambert
and Fiona in a (more or less) private audience, let them discuss so that their would be a
possible middle way - instead she worked with Wynne and planned to trick the templars into
a specific outcome and ignoring the position of the libertarians altogather.
Such tactics may work on political grounds, but not in a clash between philosophies.

Well I'll stop rambling now, since the discussions don't really work most of the times,
after all most people here have already chose their side and made their arguments. ^^

Though I fear the compromise camp is rather small =/
There will be no peace without compromise -at least I believe so..
Have a nice day

I'm glad you liked the link. And do not worry, while we Pro-Compromise people may be small in number we make up in spirit. 

[The Elder King]

@LDS-Darth Revan: Agreed. Let's hope our side will be rapresented in the game (and a choice in the solution of the war, if the war will end in DAI).

[Lotion Soronarr]

Adanu wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No it does not.
Mages are not children and templars don't have total control over them.

That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

....


So that is your definition of TOTAL CONTROL?
Seriously.

Dude. Mages have rights (for example, they cannot be made tranqul after the harrowing; apostates are to be brough in alive if possible, etc..) and they govern themselves.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No it does not.
Mages are not children and templars don't have total control over them.

That's a laugh. They don't have total control? I dare you to find an instance where mages can come and go freely from the towers without the Templars permission.

....


So that is your definition of TOTAL CONTROL?
Seriously.

Dude. Mages have rights (for example, they cannot be made tranqul after the harrowing; apostates are to be brough in alive if possible, etc..) and they govern themselves.

And to be honest thats one of reasons why templars have so little control over mages and mages are causing so much disasters... 

[Mistic]

Chaoticos wrote...

While I can understand where Fiona and Lambert come from, I think they are going
way to far. But the one group that should work towards the compromise between
extrem lenience (Lambert) and extreme freedom (Fiona) should have been the chantry,
but Justinia thought in terms of the Orlesian Grand Game. She wasn't seeking a compromise,
she had an idea (more or less) and pursued that. Maybe she should have called for Lambert
and Fiona in a (more or less) private audience, let them discuss so that their would be a
possible middle way - instead she worked with Wynne and planned to trick the templars into
a specific outcome and ignoring the position of the libertarians altogather.
Such tactics may work on political grounds, but not in a clash between philosophies.

That's a very interesting analysis you have there.

It explains perfectly the Divine's position. It's hinted that she was a bard in her past, or at least was involved with them, so it's pretty understandable why she uses Grand Game tricks during Asunder. Understandable, but not effective. She tried to do her best, that's for sure, but she was playing the wrong game. Still, looking forward to seeing her in Inquisition.

I've just recently read Asunder (never been very active in BSN before) and it was a good read to have more viewpoints about this conflict. DAII wasn't a good way to showcase this issue.

Chaoticos wrote...

Though I fear the compromise camp is rather small =/
There will be no peace without compromise -at least I believe so..
Have a nice day

"The Way of Peace is a harder path to thread". But I'm sure there will be times for compromise in Inquisition. Wasn't there something about a peace conference in that survey that appeared long ago?

Modifié par Misticsan, 18 février 2014 - 12:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

durasteel wrote...

I always considered the Circle to have more-or-less the same logic behind it as the “war on drugs” in the USA. By identifying a threat and making the general populous terrified of it with propaganda, you can wield almost unlimited power at their expense as long as they believe that you’re keeping them safe from the bogey-man.

The Templars round up anyone with the potential for magic and put them into a concentration camp. Each is made to undergo a test and if they fail, they’re lobotomized and made into a docile slave. Those who refuse, or run away, are killed. It’s a pogrom, plain and simple, and it exists to make people believe that they need the Chantry to protect them so that the Chantry can expand its power.

So propaganda and lies?

Mages arne't really dangerous?
They really can't mind control you or summon demons?
Abomations aren't really dangerous and we can be drinking buddies with them?
I guess Connor missed the memo.
And Uldred.
And the Baroness.
Any every single other mage and demon apparently.


In other news: water is dry, 2+2=8, Elvis is alive and the moon landing was fake:wizard:

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

In other news: water is dry, 2+2=8, Elvis is alive and the moon landing was fake:wizard:

This is DA world, where blood is dry, 2+2=2, Duncan is alive and the invasion to the golden city was fake:blink:

[MisterJB]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I'm glad you liked the link. And do not worry, while we Pro-Compromise people may be small in number we make up in spirit. 

I think most people consider themselves to be Pro-Compromise. I know I do but others would likely disagree with this assertion.

[The Elder King]

MisterJB wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I'm glad you liked the link. And do not worry, while we Pro-Compromise people may be small in number we make up in spirit. 

I think most people consider themselves to be Pro-Compromise. I know I do but others would likely disagree with this assertion.

From what it counts, I think you're pro-compromise. 

[wcholcombe]

So that is your definition of TOTAL CONTROL?
Seriously.

Dude. Mages have rights (for example, they cannot be made tranqul after the harrowing; apostates are to be brough in alive if possible, etc..) and they govern themselves.

It is nice to see that you can go away for 3 or 4 months and come back to the same exact arguments...

In response to this, this is Thedas, not 21st century earth.  Poor commoners in many of the nations have limited rights, dalish and city elves have limited or no rights, casteless dwarves have little or no rights.

Mages aren't guarunteed any rights, and they in no way govern themselves.

Not taking a side, just correcting a point of view.  The idea of Human rights doesn't really exist in Thedas, unless you have the power/influence/wealth to demand them.

[durasteel]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
So propaganda and lies?

Mages arne't really dangerous?
They really can't mind control you or summon demons?
Abomations aren't really dangerous and we can be drinking buddies with them?
I guess Connor missed the memo.
And Uldred.
And the Baroness.
Any every single other mage and demon apparently.
In other news: water is dry, 2+2=8, Elvis is alive and the moon landing was fake:wizard:

More like propaganda and half-truths.

Consider my original analogy to the "war on drugs." Heroin, cocaine, meth... these are incredibly dangerous drugs that ruin lives and devastate entire communities. Nevertheless, we can look back on the laws and policy that were created in the name of combating their threat and see decades of dishonesty designed to expand government authority while making sure the probelm remained visible and scary.

Mages are potentially dangerous. They can learn to control your mind, they can learn to summon demons, they are at risk of posession, and a demon's attitude towards a human host is most often "Drive it like you stole it," while their power makes the vehicle in question comparable to a tank. I don't think anyone would dispute these facts, but there is a disconnect between the problem (the potential danger of magic use) and the Chantry's proposed "solution" (the Circle of Magi controled by the Templars.) If anything, the Circle seems to be making the problem worse.

If mages could live and study magic in their home communities without being branded apostates and kidnapped or murdered, whose to say they wouldn't help their communities, identify young people with magical ability in time to prevent disasters like burning the house down, and be in a position to handle any of their fellow mages who lost control or decided to become tyrants? Tevinter is not the only model of a free-mage society, Rivain offers a dramatic contrast. If you want to see proof that the Chantry's religious fascism and pogrom against mages is a bigger problem than the threat it purports to address, you need look no farther than the The Annulment at Dairsmuid. (Read about it here.)

The Circle isn't for the benefit of the people of Thedas, it is for the benefit of the Chantry. It is not justified by practical considerations, but rather by religious doctrine.

I'm not necessarily pro-mage, nor am I necessarily anti-Templar. I am, however, anti-religion. Andraste seems to have been a true prophet, and perhaps the Maker is the true creator of Thedas, the Fade, and everything. That doesn't make the Chantry right, or the Chant of Light true. Like any religion, the Chantry exists to convert spiritual faith into mundane power, and the Circle is one of its main tools for accomplishing that objective.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...
I'm glad you liked the link. And do not worry, while we Pro-Compromise people may be small in number we make up in spirit. 

I think most people consider themselves to be Pro-Compromise. I know I do but others would likely disagree with this assertion.

You evil anti-mage! You and your ilk shall be destroyed in the coming purge!

[Beerfish]

I'll be pro compromise when someone comes up with anything at all that resembles a reasonable alternative to the way things are now. I've yet to see one that makes sense.

[The Elder King]

Beerfish wrote...

I'll be pro compromise when someone comes up with anything at all that resembles a reasonable alternative to the way things are now. I've yet to see one that makes sense.

What you support in the meantime?

[MisterJB]

durasteel wrote...
If anything, the Circle seems to be making the problem worse.

Not at all. We've seen in DAO that even in the very worst possible scenario; demon army; containment and isolation lead to not a single civilian life being lost. Therefore, the system works.
In fact, when there were accidents like Connor, it was because the rules of the Circle were not being followed.

If mages could live and study magic in their home communities without being branded apostates and kidnapped or murdered, whose to say they wouldn't help their communities, identify young people with magical ability in time to prevent disasters like burning the house down, and be in a position to handle any of their fellow mages who lost control or decided to become tyrants? Tevinter is not the only model of a free-mage society, Rivain offers a dramatic contrast. If you want to see proof that the Chantry's religious fascism and pogrom against mages is a bigger problem than the threat it purports to address, you need look no farther than the The Annulment at Dairsmuid. (Read about it here.)

Rivain actually proves what the Chantry preaches. According to the World of Thedas, Rivain communities are ruled by Seers who are mages who willingly allow themselves to be possessed. This, along with the Keepers of the Dalish, the Shaman of the Chasind and the Magisters of Tevinter seem to prove the Chantry's point; when given freedom, mages will either consort with spirits or rule man.
Rivain was ruled by possessed mages; it's Annulment was just and needed.

Also, there are already Templars present in any sizeable community that can identify young mages and thus prevent accidents if at all possible.
Finally, how would mages even "study magic in their home communities"? Would there be a tutor for every mage in every rat hole of a village? Who would pay their salaries? How would they travel between home and these villages? Would the mage's family have to accomodate another hungry mouth? And how can these communities even present adequate conditions to learn something as dangerous as magic? What if there are accidents, possession?

The Circle isn't for the benefit of the people of Thedas, it is for the benefit of the Chantry. It is not justified by practical considerations, but rather by religious doctrine.

These are two completely different issues.
First and foremost, for you to be correct, you'd have to prove that what the Chantry intends is to benefit itself rather than the people. You can't do this by pointing out perceived flaws in the security of the system or ways of improving it because all that would mean is that the Chantry could honestly believe the Circle truly is the way even if they were wrong. It's already hard enough to prove the Circle is not the best practical solution; and there are people such as myself that will oppose you; and then you'd even have to prove that the Chantry is aware of this and use it for its own advancement rather than out of belief that it truly is the best solution.

So, good luck proving all of there when there's a quote of David Gaider himself telling you how the Chantry is mostly benevolent and sees the Circle as an unfortunate necessity.

David Gaider wrote...
I think there's a bit of a bias against
organized religion in these parts (bad organized religion! bad!) which
leads some to look on anything the Chantry does with suspicion. No doubt
it doesn't help that the Chantry is a big organization with political
power, and thus given to corruption much like in our own Middle Ages.
The fact that it's mostly benevolent in its nature and sees what it does
as necessary if unfortunate is compared to the fact that they are taking freedom away from those poor mages-- and anything that deprives freedom is also automatically bad (we're a comfy, democratic lot here on the internet, I suppose).

The
Qunari, meanwhile, are a friendly bunch. Like Sten. And they kick ass
better than a bunch of priests, so who wouldn't want to join that (realities of the Qun notwithstanding)? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

I'm not necessarily pro-mage, nor am I necessarily anti-Templar. I am, however, anti-religion. Andraste seems to have been a true prophet, and perhaps the Maker is the true creator of Thedas, the Fade, and everything. That doesn't make the Chantry right, or the Chant of Light true. Like any religion, the Chantry exists to convert spiritual faith into mundane power,

I'm not a religious person at all and even I can tell you that's a broad generalization.

and the Circle is one of its main tools for accomplishing that objective.

A tool that even when there were Darkspawn invading, they only sent seven of its mages?

Now, I'm not going to say the entire Chantry is comprisd of saints who are incapable of self-interest but do tell when the Chantry has actually used the Circle as a tool for its benefit?

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 février 2014 - 04:11 .

[Beerfish]

hhh89 wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

I'll be pro compromise when someone comes up with anything at all that resembles a reasonable alternative to the way things are now. I've yet to see one that makes sense.

What you support in the meantime?

Status quo, circles, templars as is, just try your best to get rid of the crazies on both sides.  (which is the real problem).

[Mistic]

MisterJB wrote...

Rivain actually proves what the Chantry preaches. According to the World of Thedas, Rivain communities are ruled by Seers who are mages who willingly allow themselves to be possessed. This, along with the Keepers of the Dalish, the Shaman of the Chasind and the Magisters of Tevinter seem to prove the Chantry's point; when given freedom, mages will either consort with spirits or rule man.
Rivain was ruled by possessed mages; it's Annulment was just and needed.

Wait, what? If I remember it correctly, Rivain is actually an Andrastian kingdom, but where paganism is the rule in rural, traditional areas. Those, alongside Dalish clans and Chasind tribes, are small communities. Mages are important in them because they have this special, useful power nobody else has, not because they coerce them into submission. Very different form Tevinter's state magocracy.

Abominations are another thing. We know they're accepted in those Rivaini communities and that Dalish hunt their mages if they turn into abominations. Wonder what happens with the Chasind... and Tevinter.