Despite not knowing too much more about the place, we can say that they're 'efficient' enough to throw resources at the Qunari war and go toe to toe with them.
If i told you, that they use human sacrifices to empower their spells (which most likely is true) to stand against Qunari, would you still want to point out their efficiency?
First of all, let us extablish one thing. We can agree that a society dominated by mages where normals are second class citizens is a bad thing, correct.
No, I don't automatically consider that a bad thing, at least in comparison to hereditary nobility.
Rest of the post is solid, though.
If i told you, that they use human sacrifices to empower their spells (which most likely is true) to stand against Qunari, would you still want to point out their efficiency?
Ask that from the people who died on Qunari invasion of Thedas.
The devs are trying to portray Tevinter as Byzantine, but of course you know this. Anyhow Slavery was allowed in both westerns and eastern (Byzantine) Roman Empires. Despite this, Byzantine was a wall against all conquests that threatened all Europe. As soon as Byzantine fell all of Europe was vulnerable and Ottomans conquered half of east Europe.
The irony here is, just like Tevinter that was once fully conquered but their capital Minrathous remained and they risen again, same happened to Byzantine once. They lost all lands except Constantinople but recaptured them later. The Qunari are held in check because of Tevinter.
No, I don't automatically consider that a bad thing, at least in comparison to hereditary nobility.
Rest of the post is solid, though.
Indeed. I don't see how mages ruling is any less justified than nobles ruling. "Noble blood" practically doesn't exists and its a label where being a mage is quite real. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mages being the ruling class as long as slavery is not involved, Period.
No, I don't automatically consider that a bad thing, at least in comparison to hereditary nobility.
Rest of the post is solid, though.
Indeed. I don't see how mages ruling is any less justified than nobles ruling. "Noble blood" practically doesn't exists and its a label where being a mage is quite real. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mages being the ruling class as long as slavery is not involved, Period.
I think he was more referring to the treating nonmage citizens as second class more than mages ruling.
I think he was more referring to the treating nonmage citizens as second class more than mages ruling.
And he went on to reference the Chasind, the Dalish, the Rivaini, and Tevinter. Mundanes aren't treated like second-class citizens in any of those societies save Tevinter, so I'm assuming that isn't what he meant.
Ask that from the people who died on Qunari invasion of Thedas.
The devs are trying to portray Tevinter as Byzantine, but of course you know this. Anyhow Slavery was allowed in both westerns and eastern (Byzantine) Roman Empires. Despite this, Byzantine was a wall against all conquests that threatened all Europe. As soon as Byzantine fell all of Europe was vulnerable and Ottomans conquered half of east Europe.
The irony here is, just like Tevinter that was once fully conquered but their capital Minrathous remained and they risen again, same happened to Byzantine once. They lost all lands except Constantinople but recaptured them later. The Qunari are held in check because of Tevinter.
So, you'd be willing to step into Tevinter's shoes and use human sacrifices to repel/hold an invasion? And probably justify it by "greater good". That's the vibe i've got from this one and your previous posts.
Any organization that uses human sacrifice is pretty much at the top of my "To Eliminate" list.
So, you'd be willing to step into Tevinter's shoes and use human sacrifices to repel/hold an invasion? And probably justify it by "greater good". That's the vibe i've got from this one and your previous posts.
Then your "vibe" is wrong. I was clearly talking about necessity of Tevinter fighting Qunari. I was ignoring their fighting methods. They are in a war, people will die, sacrifice or whatever. You think generals never sacrifice their soliders and send them to their doom just to distract the enemy? Your sense of morality cannot comprehend war it seems. In regard to your question if I was in their shoes, I will raze anything if it makes my country survive like my ancestors before me and like your ancestors before you. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around. If you are from a free country people have done despicable things to make it free, do not forget that.
I will gut any Magister who used human sacrifice for his pleasure much sooner than you, but its war. People are dying everyday, sacrifice or no.
Byzantine had many rivals too and normally they would seize the opportunity to attack it when it was weakened by Muslim attacks but they didn't because they knew it was standing against invasions.
All these years no nation has even tried to offend Tevinter least of all invade because they know Tevinter is keeping Qunari on check. Because of them they have no access to mainland Thedas and the Qunari do not have the element of surprise. Its a necessary evil not greater good.
No, I don't automatically consider that a bad thing, at least in comparison to hereditary nobility.
Rest of the post is solid, though.
Indeed. I don't see how mages ruling is any less justified than nobles ruling. "Noble blood" practically doesn't exists and its a label where being a mage is quite real. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mages being the ruling class as long as slavery is not involved, Period.
So a noble class of rulers is bad...unless it is a noble class you can choose to be part of at the character creation screen.
So, what would that mean? That neither type of noble class is bad?
Not really what I was going for but I suppose it's close enough.
Then your "vibe" is wrong. I was clearly talking about necessity of Tevinter fighting Qunari. I was ignoring their fighting methods. They are in a war, people will die, sacrifice or whatever. You think generals never sacrifice their soliders and send them to their doom just to distract the enemy? Your sense of morality cannot comprehend war it seems. In regard to your question if I was in their shoes, I will raze anything if it makes my country survive like my ancestors before me and like your ancestors before you. This is the point that the rest of us are missing, from our very comfortable positions in life: being able to take the high road and condemn the actions of murderous fighters is, sometimes, not recognized for what it is: a luxury that we would NOT HAVE if not for those murderers giving the rest of the world something to rally around. If you are from a free country people have done despicable things to make it free, do not forget that.
I will gut any Magister who used human sacrifice for his pleasure much sooner than you, but its war. People are dying everyday, sacrifice or no.
Byzantine had many rivals too and normally they would seize the opportunity to attack it when it was weakened by Muslim attacks but they didn't because they knew it was standing against invasions.
All these years no nation has even tried to offend Tevinter least of all invade because they know Tevinter is keeping Qunari on check. Because of them they have no access to mainland Thedas and the Qunari do not have the element of surprise. Its a necessary evil not greater good.
Necessary evil and Greater good are just two flip sides of one coin.
Yes, generals sent soldiers to their deaths countless times, but soldiers would at least die fighting, not like a cattle under a knife. And it is you, who don't understand the underline of human sacrifices from your comfortable distant position. It's not a choice Magisters make under duress most of the time, it's a choice they make daily in clear mind and cold blood in the name of necessary evil (another weighted term). Tevinter is a distant buffer between South and the Qunari, that's why it's relatively easy to discard their methods for you, but when you are faced with that necessity, when you are the one, holding the knife and calculating the costs - would you?
So, when do you lose humanity in the name of necessary evil? When do you become worse than your enemies in the name of greater good? What would your freedom taste like, if you knew it is built on the deaths of countless unwilling (soldiers are hardly unwilling)?
Ask that from the people who died on Qunari invasion of Thedas.
The devs are trying to portray Tevinter as Byzantine, but of course you know this. Anyhow Slavery was allowed in both westerns and eastern (Byzantine) Roman Empires. Despite this, Byzantine was a wall against all conquests that threatened all Europe. As soon as Byzantine fell all of Europe was vulnerable and Ottomans conquered half of east Europe.
The irony here is, just like Tevinter that was once fully conquered but their capital Minrathous remained and they risen again, same happened to Byzantine once. They lost all lands except Constantinople but recaptured them later. The Qunari are held in check because of Tevinter.
The Qunari didn't kill civilians, so the list of people to ask would be limited to soldiers...
I will gut any Magister who used human sacrifice for his pleasure much sooner than you, but its war. People are dying everyday, sacrifice or no.
Personally, I'd gut any magister that used human sacrifice for anything. I don't care if it's war, or tax collectors, or the Maker said so.
No, it was because it was in a building that could be easily locked down. The Circle system itself had nothing to do with it. You don't need the Circles to lock down a school.
The Circle places potential Abominations and blood mages away from major population centers thus reducing the number of victims in case of attacks and it reduces the response time of Templars by having them be stationed right down the hall. There is no other system that replicates these effects,
Talk about apples and oranges! More like: Let's ask the city elves how they feel about policing themselves, not how they feel about the humans. I'm betting the city elves would welcome the chance to be out from human rule.
You're missing the point. Humans police other humans which has allowed for crimes commited by humans against elves to be ignored. What guarantees are there that the mages will not simply ignore crimes commited by their own against normal people?
Orsino is guilty of this in DA2.
No, it doesn't. An internment camp should always be treated as a short term solution.
Not if the disease is incurable.
It's obvious that the classroom education that the Circle provides does work, so we can keep the classes as is.
It works so long as we are not expected to trust every mage who attended them to live on their own away from the watchful eye of the Templars.
Fine, the overwhelming majority of the time mages cannot travel without a Templar.
I did want to point out that in the cases of Wynne and Irving, it took pretty much most of their lives before the Chantry let them leave on their own. And even, with those few mages you listed, they are still being baby sat by a potentially murderous nanny; that's what the phylacteries are all about. All it takes is a Templar going, "Gee, maybe that mage is trouble" and tracking them down across Thedas. They don't have to have any evidence or a reason beyond " I suspect blood magic afoot." It doesn't matter how long one has been a mage, or their position in the Circles, they can still be subject to this at any given time.
You are aware of the fact it takes two keys, the Knight Commander's and the First Enchanter's, to acess the Phylactery room, correct?
In order for a Templar to pursue a mage, the FE has to agree that it is necessary. Basically, they keep each other in check.
The Circle places potential Abominations and blood mages away from major population centers thus reducing the number of victims in case of attacks and it reduces the response time of Templars by having them be stationed right down the hall. There is no other system that replicates these effects,
You're missing the point. Humans police other humans which has allowed for crimes commited by humans against elves to be ignored. What guarantees are there that the mages will not simply ignore crimes commited by their own against normal people?
Orsino is guilty of this in DA2.
Not if the disease is incurable.
It works so long as we are not expected to trust every mage who attended them to live on their own away from the watchful eye of the Templars.
You are aware of the fact it takes two keys, the Knight Commander's and the First Enchanter's, to acess the Phylactery room, correct?
In order for a Templar to pursue a mage, the FE has to agree that it is necessary. Basically, they keep each other in check.
I'ld disagree with the last point. Keeping each other in check, would mean that they have equal power, which they demonstratively don't.
I'ld disagree with the last point. Keeping each other in check, would mean that they have equal power, which they demonstratively don't.
Maker's Breath!
If this is going back to Kirkwall? I'd assume so given that more or less every Templar action has a circle counter action, from the Harrowing, Rite of Tranquility all the way down to entering the blood jar room. And Kirkwall being our only alternative.
Meredith had assumed power beyond the order, something relatively rare for the Templars, That wasn't a common occurrence, course that said it wasn't like it wasn't needed with Kirkwall being what it was.
I'ld disagree with the last point. Keeping each other in check, would mean that they have equal power, which they demonstratively don't.
The laws of the Circle seem to have been written towards granting equal power to Templars and mages. They, in fact, do a better job of protecting the Circle's charges than the laws of normal kingdoms. There is, after all, a law protecting mages from being made Tranquil after passing the Harrowing, whereas stealing two sacks of grain to feed your family can lead you to the chopping block in the outside world.
But of course, Templars and mages are humans which means that they will, inevitably, compete for supremacy within their closed little world. In places like Kirkwall, the center of Templar power in the East, it is only natural that the Order will have a great deal of authority over the mages.
The opposite occurs in Tevinter where it is the mages who hold the reins of power within the Circle.
It's human nature, no way around it.
The laws of the Circle seem to have been written towards granting equal power to Templars and mages. They, in fact, do a better job of protecting the Circle's charges than the laws of normal kingdoms. There is, after all, a law protecting mages from being made Tranquil after passing the Harrowing, whereas stealing two sacks of grain to feed your family can lead you to the chopping block in the outside world.
But of course, Templars and mages are humans which means that they will, inevitably, compete for supremacy within their closed little world. In places like Kirkwall, the center of Templar power in the East, it is only natural that the Order will have a great deal of authority over the mages.
The opposite occurs in Tevinter where it is the mages who hold the reins of power within the Circle.
It's human nature, no way around it.
Which was my point. They're technically meant to balance each other, but the extent through which each first enchanter can use their power depends on the the templars. You might have equal power on paper, but that only works if everyone agrees that you are equal.
But that also works the other way around. In Tevinter, mages can do whatever and Templars have no power to stop them.
It's a struggle for supremacy and in this, both sides are guilty and innocent.
But that also works the other way around. In Tevinter, mages can do whatever and Templars have no power to stop them.
It's a struggle for supremacy and in this, both sides are guilty and innocent.
I agree. Does this mean the thread is over... 
.
I agree. Does this mean the thread is over...
._.
I guess?
i am so confused
Fine, the overwhelming majority of the time mages cannot travel without a Templar.
I did want to point out that in the cases of Wynne and Irving, it took pretty much most of their lives before the Chantry let them leave on their own. And even, with those few mages you listed, they are still being baby sat by a potentially murderous nanny; that's what the phylacteries are all about. All it takes is a Templar going, "Gee, maybe that mage is trouble" and tracking them down across Thedas. They don't have to have any evidence or a reason beyond " I suspect blood magic afoot." It doesn't matter how long one has been a mage, or their position in the Circles, they can still be subject to this at any given time.
Trust is not something that is established over night.
Also, it seems that it isn't that uncommon for mages to go out on various errands. USUALLY with templar escorts, but we've seen cases of younger Circle mages outside without escort
I did want to point out that in the cases of Wynne and Irving, it took pretty much most of their lives before the Chantry let them leave on their own. And even, with those few mages you listed, they are still being baby sat by a potentially murderous nanny; that's what the phylacteries are all about. All it takes is a Templar going, "Gee, maybe that mage is trouble" and tracking them down across Thedas. They don't have to have any evidence or a reason beyond " I suspect blood magic afoot." It doesn't matter how long one has been a mage, or their position in the Circles, they can still be subject to this at any given time.
Trust is not something that is established over night.
Also, it seems that it isn't that uncommon for mages to go out on various errands. USUALLY with templar escorts, but we've seen cases of younger Circle mages outside without escort
Didn't Asunder mention how Rhys and his Murderous Former girlfriend went out into the capital occasionally? Back when the circle was actually stable?
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