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[Master Warder Z_]

As I mentioned, she's always been heavily against Tranquility.

 

Yes we gather as much from the three or so paragraphs that describe her back story in heavy detail!

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Xil

 

I'm against sending innocent people to prison. Doesn't mean I'm going to kill everyone that applies to. 

[The Elder King]

Over or not, it was along with it. Adrian's always been vehemently against Tranquility.

That doesn't means she'd go around killing tranquils in normal situations. If the mages start using the Tranquility cure, but then change minds because the subjects show to be too instable and decide to re-tranquilize them, she won't kill them.

[The Elder King]

As I mentioned, she's always been heavily against Tranquility.
 
.

I responded to you in my above post.

[AresKeith]

As I mentioned, she's always been heavily against Tranquility.

Ex-templar. And they weren't dating at that point in any case.
In any case, it was ultimately moral.

Evangeline still believes in what order stands for, regardless of her actions she's pretty much still a Templar

[Master Warder Z_]

As I mentioned, she's always been heavily against Tranquility.

 

 

 

Ex-templar. And they weren't dating at that point in any case.

In any case, it was ultimately moral.

 

As Elder pointed out, it doesn't fit normal circumstance, she committed a murder.

 

Being against something in principle doesn't excuse it.

 

And it ultimately was selfish, ego driven instigation of war and death for her own agenda.

 

Nothing even vaguely moral about it at all.

[Xilizhra]

@Xil

 

I'm against sending innocent people to prison. Doesn't mean I'm going to kill everyone that applies to. 

Might you if someone was begging for death instead?

 

 

That doesn't means she'd go around killing tranquils in normal situations. If the mages start using the Tranquility cure, but then change minds because the subjects show to be too instable and decide to re-tranquilize them, she won't kill them.

The point was the aforementioned "begging for death" thing.

[DrBlingzle]

Don't lump us all together.

Sorry I just get annoyed how at this point in a thread it becomes hard for people new to the thread to bring their opinions across even if they are smart and well thought out. Although in this case I was actually supprised by how many people responded to the post. Prehaps there is hope

[AresKeith]

Might you if someone was begging for death instead?


The point was the aforementioned "begging for death" thing.

If that was the case she wouldn't have framed Rhys

[MisterJB]

Better to have, than to not have at all. You also overlook the fact that none of that is a gaurantee for every peasant. Every circle mage will have their children taken away, there is no changing that. Unless of course they're forced to be apostates in which case all of the above apply with the added advantage of being hated and feared and paranoid about Templars.

 

No, better to never have had a child than to watch it suffer. And every peasant will have to face harships mages never will. For instance. Rhy couldn't wrap his mind around the concept most of the citizens of the Orlesian Empire are illiterate because reading is something every Circle mage learns early on.

 

They don't wonder at all. Or do you not understand that they explicitly cannot leave the tower unless given special permission by their kindly masters.
 

There are different kinds of freedom beyond freedom of movement.

 

So they can manage a population that they already dehumanize, much like the elves? What would appear to be benevolent forced celibacy is just another dagger in the back that the promiscuous peasants do not have to endure.

 

Celibacy is not the same as reproduction. Maybe the reason Emille couldn't kis a girl is because he is pathetic.

And yes, population management is one of the reason reproduction is discouraged(and for good reasons, the Circle is meant to be containable, after all) but there are other factors. For instance, what if the child turns out to be a normal person? We will have kept it in the Circle for no good reason and his/her parents will not be able to teach him/her a trade with which to survive.

Bethany always wanted children. Once she was placed in the Circle, she found joy in teaching the young ones. Why can't more mages make the Circle their family?

 

Yet you do not hear or even see these pregnant mages, it's never brought up or mentioned . We simply know what happens to them if they do happen to have the nerve to exist. That leads me to believe that mages that can get away with having sex are simply lucky and probably rare. As Anders jokes about doing such in Fereldan's circle. If they were not, we would most certainly hear about it from a Templar or the Chantry itself.

 

Nah. In Asunder, Adrian sneaks into Rhys' room and they would have done the nasty right then and there had he been up to it; and that was in the middle of a lockdown. Wynne had a baby, Anders said everyone was kissing everyone in Ferelden. They probably just know enough not to get pregnant.

 

Is that mostly true in Thedas though? I recall that even the city elves could pack up and try to go somewhere else in DA origins. And they're...city elves.

 

Thedas is not like medieval Europe in all aspects, true. I still doubt people can casually travel from Ferelden to the Free Marches.

 

Not when we do not know what goes on in the other what, ten plus circles? Can't conclude anything. I'll grant that much.
 

We have a two to one so far.

 

I do not know exactly what you're talking about here. However, it is the exception and does not appear to be the rule.
 

Remember in Act 1 how Emeric said he began investigating the serial killer because one of the mages left the Gallows to go meet up with a suitor and never returned?

That doesn't sound very opressive, does it?

 

Ah, never returned Ella to the circle, interesting to know.  I'll agree that not every Templar is an Alrik and not every Templar is a Karras. But when the Chantry teaches that mages are responsible for original sin how do you think their 'holy warriors' are going to act towards mages? Wesley's reaction to Bethany is very telling of the amount of fearmongering going on and Wesley was a good dude. He would have to be to be married to Aveline the lawful. Also, when a Templar chooses to abuse his charges the mage is completely dependant upon the KC of that circle if they're not outright threatend by the abuser to remain quiet or risk tranquility or death of themselves or their friends. So unless of you've got a Thrask or Greagoir, why would a mage even take the risk? Bottomline, lighten the hell up. Don't be their friends but don't be so damned menacing either.

 

Templars are fearful of mages and they have good reason to be. However, I do agree that there must be more avenues through which mages can defend themselves from abuses. There should even be ways for mages to request transfer between Circles if need be.

 

Most seriously. What about Thedas leads you to believe that peasants are ball and chained to their lands indefinitely and that they have phylacteries so men in armor can hunt them down, drag them back or murder them? Can you point to where they're all caged up and not allowed to move outside of their tower? Can you point to where they will never quit their pursuit and keep them on the run forever? And I do not mean exceptional criminals I'm talking about mages like Malcolm or Bethany or even Dalish Keepers. I do not believe that you can.

 

A mage has about as many chances of running or screaming for aid in the Tower and normal people have outside. A mage won't be able to leave the tower, no. But if they can get to, say, near the common room, they can yell for help. Much like a normal person if s/he is attacked.

 

They are a threat, though the meaning is very broad as it pertains to mages. Merill(I'm sorry BSN) can run around using blood magic and bring dangerous tech to Kirkwall and not a damned thing happens. Anders can do much the same. He almost murders Ella but he keeps it intact with a spirt trapped in his body for almost a decade. What about Morrigan and other home trained mages? The Seers, Chasind, Keepers? Oh there's definitely a risk attached to mages outside the circle, but tell me. Exactly why should mages have to continue paying for mundane security at the very cost of their livelihood? Why is it ok to pull them out of their prisons when needed in a war and then toss them back as if they were tools that you put away in a shed? These 'freedoms' are not provided to a large majority of mages.

 

We all have a responsability to society. We all give up a portion of our freedoms the moment we are born because we are potentially dangerous. Mages give up more of their freedoms because they represent a greater danger. Maybe they could feel some responsabilty towards their fellow non-magical humans? Wynne certainly does.

And there is broad evidence in the franchise that if a mage proves himself or herself trustworthy, s/he is granted more freedoms. I mean, look at Finn. All he has to do is to ask and he is allowed to go do some research without a Templar escort.

Maybe mages should spend more time trying to prove themselves worthy of trust and less time wondering how they are going to try to escape again. And then get surprised if the Templars are less than willing to allow them outside.

 

And tell me where did she return to ultimately?

 

To her home and her children. She proved herself trusthworthy and thus was allowed to attend an high society party without an escort. Afterwards, she returned. What is so wrong about that?

 

Connor was an anomaly, a perfect storm. Templars away, most soldiers away, Isolde hid him, hired a bad tutor, his father fell ill because of said tutor. There are so many variables there, not the best example. I will grant dozens, hundreds? I doubt that they wouldn't be put down by that point. Who's asking? The Templars kick in the door and drag their asses to the circle whether they like it or not. Maybe that's what the problem is. You and I have different views on what Quality of life means so I'll agree to disagree on that bit. And when the templars can indiscrimantly kill mages for crimes that they did not commit and lobotomize them based on fautly evidence? Agreed, it's just too blood much to ask.

 

Meredith's sister - 72 dead. The Baroness - an entire city trapped in the Fade doomed to repeat their deaths for all eternity. Kaiten - an entire city corrupted and nearly destroyed.

 

Do tell when have Templars indiscriminatly killed for killed or Tranquilised mages for crimes they did not commit, based on faulty evidence.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

 

Might you if someone was begging for death instead?

 

If that was the case she wouldn't have framed Rhys

As Ares said, if it was purely for a mercy killing then own up to it and say so, not create an eloquent dance that ends with your ex as a scapegoat.

 

 

Sorry I just get annoyed how at this point in a thread it becomes hard for people new to the thread to bring their opinions across even if they are smart and well thought out. Although in this case I was actually supprised by how many people responded to the post. Prehaps there is hope:)

It's fine. I know what you mean.

[The Elder King]

Might you if someone was begging for death instead?
 
 

The point was the aforementioned "begging for death" thing.

I didn't know Adrian had telepathy powers that lead her know that Pharamond wanted to die. She went where he was with the precise intent of killing him, regardless of his desire.
Or do you believe that if Pharamond decided that he wanted to live she'd have spared him and abandoned her plan?

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Do tell when have Templars indiscriminatly killed for killed or Tranquilised mages for crimes they did not commit, based on faulty evidence.

Kirkwall. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Kirkwall. 

 

Most of those cases are debatable though, conspiring with Apostates, Escaping the circle, Looking at their Templar guards wrong, Being mouthy, I mean can you really blame them?

[eyezonlyii]

Kirkwall.

Kirwall was an extreme case though

[Master Warder Z_]

Kirwall was an extreme case though

 

The entire game was designed to show the extremes of both sides, Bioware has said this a lot.

[DrBlingzle]

Kirkwall.

I just love how meredith plans to kill all the mages in the city when the man responible is standing RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER.

[The Elder King]

Most of those cases are debatable though, conspiring with Apostates, Escaping the circle, Looking at their Templar guards wrong, Being mouthy, I mean can you really blame them?

Karl was an Harrowed mage, so regardless that he planned to escape his Tranquilization was illegal, as Alrik well known. The same goes most likely for Ella.

[KainD]

I just love how meredith plans to kill all the mages in the city when the man responible is standing RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER.

 

All that was missing was her walking up to Anders, high-fiving him and saying: ''Yeah baby, the party is on!''

[Xilizhra]

I didn't know Adrian had telepathy powers that lead her know that Pharamond wanted to die. She went where he was with the precise intent of killing him, regardless of his desire.
Or do you believe that if Pharamond decided that he wanted to live she'd have spared him and abandoned her plan?

Pharamond was quite vocal about wanting to die. As for the other question... well, we'll never really know. But I think she might have.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Most of those cases are debatable though, conspiring with Apostates, Escaping the circle, Looking at their Templar guards wrong, Being mouthy, I mean can you really blame them?

Killing the Circle for what Anders did though isn't. 

 

 

Kirwall was an extreme case though

MisterJB asked for an example of when Templars indiscriminately killed or Tranquilized mages for something they didn't do, so I gave one. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Karl was an Harrowed mage, so regardless that he planned to escape his Tranquilization was illegal, as Alrik well known. The same goes most likely for Ella.

 

._. Yeah you see, i never agreed with that law but i grant you it was "illegal" in law, if not spirit. And unknown given it was never said if she was anything more then a apprentice.

 

Seriously though how much garbage can you put up from mages before giving the tranquility required to actually be nice people?

[Master Warder Z_]

Killing the Circle for what Anders did though isn't. 

 

That situation was overly complicated though, and i honestly think Bioware would have been better off expanding upon it in the direction of the common people and nobility alike being outraged by the crime and possibly taking action against the Order it self for its failure to protect the Chantry, over you know, Lyrium induced craziness.

 

But ultimately position or no, That decision wasn't with out merit, that circle was overly corrupt and tainted with blood mages to its highest echelons. But i grant you condemning them for a crime they did not commit isn't overly just, but it just so happens? Its a convenient method of getting rid of a circle that needs to be gone anyway!

[Xilizhra]

._. Yeah you see, i never agreed with that law but i grant you it was "illegal" in law, if not spirit. And unknown given it was never said if she was anything more then a apprentice.

 

Seriously though how much garbage can you put up from mages before giving the tranquility required to actually be nice people?

One would think Tranquilizing people to rape them would also be illegal, of course. Or at least one would hope.

[Master Warder Z_]

One would think Tranquilizing people to rape them would also be illegal, of course. Or at least one would hope.

 

We covered this point Xil, there wasn't a rape, all we got were words, and a comment via a tranquil which could mean several things.

 

So ultimately to me? It isn't enough evidence to conclusively declare it was "rape" 

 

But that said, Yes if it was THAT it would be a crime.