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[KainD]

One would think Tranquilizing people to rape them would also be illegal, of course. Or at least one would hope.

 

Tranquil can't be raped, they agree to it. 

[The Elder King]

Pharamond was quite vocal about wanting to die. As for the other question... well, we'll never really know. But I think she might have.

Pharamond was vocal on not wanting to be a tranquil, not that he preferred to die than to be a tranquil, as far as I recall.
Fair enough, though I disagree.

[Master Warder Z_]

Tranquil can't be raped, they agree to it. 

 

And given they have free will, They have the cognition required to give consent or refuse it.

 

Ergo if its agreeable to them, its not rape.

 

Under even our modern laws

[MisterJB]

Kirkwall. 

When? We saw Alrik going behind Meredith's back but what he did was a crime, not Templar-sponsored behavior.

[Xilizhra]

We covered this point Xil, there wasn't a rape, all we got were words, and a comment via a tranquil which could mean several things.

 

So ultimately to me? It isn't enough evidence to conclusively declare it was "rape" 

 

But that said, Yes if it was THAT it would be a crime.

I'm not entirely sure how you can reach this conclusion apart by deliberately ignoring any and all implications to something without them beating you over the head.

 

 

And given they have free will, They have the cognition required to give consent or refuse it.

 

Ergo if its agreeable to them, its not rape.

 

Under even our modern laws

Blatant coercion by clear subordinates with no right of refusal, who'll do whatever seems logical at the time to avoid harm? Rape apologism will out, it seems.

[KainD]

 

Blatant coercion by clear subordinates with no right of refusal, who'll do whatever seems logical at the time to avoid harm? Rape apologism will out, it seems.

 

It's not like tranquil people have dignity or feel anything afterwards, they are emotionless. I mean making someone tranquil kinda sucks, but once they are tranquil it doesn't matter anymore, they have no real persona. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

When? We saw Alrik going behind Meredith's back but what he did was a crime, not Templar-sponsored behavior.

I was referring to enacting the RoA on the Circle for destroying the Chantry when they didn't have anything to do with it. Regardless of suspicions, that was the reason Meredith gave for starting it and thus the Circle was killed for something they didn't do. 

[AresKeith]

Blatant coercion by clear subordinates with no right of refusal, who'll do whatever seems logical at the time to avoid harm? Rape apologism will out, it seems.

I'd rather avoid this topic and everyone drop it. But you can't say apologism since you do it yourself

[KainD]

And with this current topic, I have lost all respect for both Master Warden Z and KainD. Supporting what Alrik did is fucked up. 

 

I don't support it, I just don't care. There's a difference. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't support it, I just don't care. There's a difference. 

No, it's just as bad. 

[The Elder King]

I was referring to enacting the RoA on the Circle for destroying the Chantry when they didn't have anything to do with it. Regardless of suspicions, that was the reason Meredith gave for starting it and thus the Circle was killed for something they didn't do.

Meredith was kind of gone at this point, though.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm not entirely sure how you can reach this conclusion apart by deliberately ignoring any and all implications to something without them beating you over the head.

 

Blatant coercion by clear subordinates with no right of refusal, who'll do whatever seems logical at the time to avoid harm? Rape apologism will out, it seems.

 

Actually looking for evidence and proof of a crime? Not an offhanded comment? 

 

And it wasn't that blatant to me, and given the Tranquil can "disobey/refuse" it seems to me that they can clearly posses the cognition and reasoning applicable by any standards to give consent.

 

And calling it rape apologism doesn't magically not make it you grasping at straws and twisting it like everything with your headcanon.

[KainD]

No, it's just as bad. 

 

THAT is bad - thinking that apathy is an action, that leads to many uncalled for conflicts. 

[Master Warder Z_]

And with this current topic, I have lost all respect for both Master Warden Z and KainD. Supporting what Alrik did is fucked up. 

 

Don't recall saying i support it, i just point out that there wasn't much to hang the man with beyond blanket speculation and a few strings of text, It wasn't like when Loghain was selling elves to the Imperium and the idiot stamped his seal on the Slaver documents and signed them. For Alrik? There is what he said, a single case of illegal tranqulization confirmed and a comment made by a tranquil which could imply many things.

 

And me defending the tranquil doesn't have much to do with the case, I view them as people, A few pro mages don't and that's their right but it doesn't shift my stance.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

THAT is bad - thinking that apathy is an action, that leads to many uncalled for conflicts. 

Going "Way to go Alrik" and "Meh, I don't care" is just as bad, yes. 

 

For many situations, you are right. This is not one of those. 

[MisterJB]

I was referring to enacting the RoA on the Circle for destroying the Chantry when they didn't have anything to do with it. Regardless of suspicions, that was the reason Meredith gave for starting it and thus the Circle was killed for something they didn't do. 

Oh, true then. But there is the Red Lyrium to take into account.

[KainD]

Going "Way to go Alrik" and "Meh, I don't care" is just as bad, yes. 

 

Or not bad, since I am apathetic on the situation.. Or because I don't consider it a rape, or because there is nothing to be gained by thinking otherwise. 

[DrBlingzle]

THAT is bad - thinking that apathy is an action, that leads to many uncalled for conflicts.

Actually thats kind of what happened in nazi germany. The german people stood by while atrocities were committed in their own country and the contries of europe sat back while hitler expanded far too greatly.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Oh, true then. But there is the Red Lyrium to take into account.

The Red Lyrium is the sole reason I hold it as an exception and don't blame the Templar organization as a whole, though the Templars standing with her when they saw what happened sure didn't speak up about it. 

[KainD]

Actually thats kind of what happened in nazi germany. The german people stood by while atrocities were committed in their own country and the contries of europe sat back while hitler expanded far too greatly.

 

Aaand that's their choice, there is nothing wrong with that. 

[KaiserShep]

Tranquil can't be raped, they agree to it.

That sort of begs the question as to whether or not a tranquil mage possesses the capacity of a normal person, especially if that person would have otherwise objected to the advances of the offending Templar.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Red Lyrium is the sole reason I hold it as an exception and don't blame the Templar organization as a whole, though the Templars standing with her when they saw what happened sure didn't speak up about it. 

 

Most Militant Organizations tend to hold commanding officers to a certain standard of authority, Reliving her of command over a debatable Annulment may have been grounds, but it wouldn't have been overly plausible once the circle was investigated and she magically gets venerated, so removing her from command afterwards likely was the only practical option.

[KainD]

That sort of begs the question as to whether or not a tranquil mage possesses the capacity of a normal person, especially if that person would have otherwise objected to the advances of the offending Templar.

 

Yeah, I don't see why a tranquil person would care for that sort of action, not like they have feelings..

[DrBlingzle]

Aaand that's their choice, there is nothing wrong with that.

There was nothing wrong with countries like Britain and France letting the rise of nazi germany continue when it was easily in their power to stop it at the start?

Okay I'm going to stop talking about this now, we're getting of topic.

[Inprea]

Oh, true then. But there is the Red Lyrium to take into account.

 

That might hold for Meredith, however we don't know how much the lyrium really influenced her, but what about all the soldiers who followed her orders? For me at least this is one of the things that drive me nuts about the pro-templar people. You seem very willing to justify everything a templar does by they were following orders. I mean. Would you accept that as a defense for the mages that aided Uldred? He is a senior enchanter after all and apparently supporting Logain later. Not only that but most mages have been brought up in the circle. What kind of respect would they have been taught to give to senior enchanters sense childhood?

 

For me following orders is not an acceptable defense and I don't see one case of corruption but several especially amongst those templars that attack Hawke. As for the sword. Until we know exactly how much it influences the mind I don't believe it's court worthy evidence. I'm reminded of another war sword from a comic. It is said to impart ruthlessness onto its holder. It's a great weapon for a warlord. However, after performing a certain act and becoming disgusted with himself the weapon's holder asks one of the mages. "How much of this was the sword and how much was me?" 95% him. As the mage said. The sword can't give anything that isn't already there all it can do is give a gentle nudge here and relax a few guidelines there.

 

The lyrium sword may be worse but then again it may be the same thing.