very dubious reasons.
Hilarious Xill, Instigation of a war, Murder and etc is suspect now despite you know being blatantly clear in the ending of Asunder?
If i'm speaking plainly then i'd point that overtly through physical action she insured there would be combat, her and Fiona both insured it.
They did not 'murder' anyone, they helped them. They set them free.
I'm pretty sure that's how Arl Howe Viewed the Alienage purges too 
4) Adrian is a piece of garbage as wrong in her ways as Anders, Lambert, Meredith, Uldred. Just because you agree with any of them doesn't change the fact, you say freedom fighter or doing their duty, I say terrorist, lunatic, etc.
If by "fact" you mean "opinion." Unless the fact is simply that you have an opinion; the grammar's a little ambiguous.
Hilarious Xill, Instigation of a war, Murder and etc is suspect now despite you know being blatantly clear in the ending of Asunder?
If i'm speaking plainly then i'd point that overtly through physical action she insured there would be combat, her and Fiona both insured it.
"Murder" just seems like an excuse, otherwise you'd have every reason to hate the PCs and most of the companions.
I'm pretty sure that's how Arl Howe Viewed the Alienage purges too
Indeed, just like the slaves in Tevinter.
"Murder" just seems like an excuse, otherwise you'd have every reason to hate the PCs and most of the companions.
Who says i don't?
That's ultimately PC morality though, we are discussing my own.
And just because it seems like an excuse to you, doesn't magically not make it a crime.
Well Adrian and Anders did both murder people for their cause, you sort of invite such things when you do so.
I don't think the demise of Pharamond is the same thing as the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry, given Pharamond's preference to die rather than becoming tranquil again.
Who says i don't?
That's ultimately PC morality though, we are discussing my own.
And just because it seems like an excuse to you, doesn't magically not make it a crime.
I don't give a damn about crimes in the eyes of the Chantry. I'm saying that it doesn't work as a reason for why people hate her, given how minor it is in comparison to a lot of other things in the actual game.
If by "fact" you mean "opinion." Unless the fact is simply that you have an opinion; the grammar's a little ambiguous.
"Murder" just seems like an excuse, otherwise you'd have every reason to hate the PCs and most of the companions.
Changed my wording after I posted it, yeah me saying fact wasn't the best use of terms.
The issue on Adrian vs. PCs I guess is a question of the actions within the narrative. My biggest issue with it isn't actually the "murder", lets be honest, people get murdered all the time in DA and I won't deny Pharamond wanted to die, its more the idea of the act in conjunction with the frame up, the timing of it, the fact that whether Pharamond wanted to die or not had no bearing on Adrian's actions, her simple goal was to influence events at the conclave. I fully believe, in my personal opinion, that Adrian would have killed Pharamond even if he pleaded for his life when she came to kill him, he was a pawn to get what she wanted. Its in the same sense that I think Lambert was an idiot for how he responded to it all.
I don't think the demise of Pharamond is the same thing as the destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry, given Pharamond's preference to die rather than becoming tranquil again.
I'd still call both Murder, just one a mass murder, act of terrorism, whatever.
Either or.
And given we only have her word for it along with Cole's inane rambling i'm not much of a believer of him even having said it to be honest.
Either way though, ultimately i think it was his penance to become tranquil again, penance for his actions leading to the deaths of dozens of people.
I don't give a damn about crimes in the eyes of the Chantry. I'm saying that it doesn't work as a reason for why people hate her, given how minor it is in comparison to a lot of other things in the actual game.
So we are arguing gameplay in a plot and lore discussing?
Do you realize how feeble that defense is?
And i'm pretty sure murder is a crime in just more then the eyes of the Chantry, just assuming here mind you but i'm pretty sure its illegal everywhere.
I'd still call both Murder, just one a mass murder, act of terrorism, whatever.
Either or.
And given we only have her word for it along with Cole's inane rambling i'm not much of a believer of him even having said it to be honest.
Either way though, ultimately i think it was his penance to become tranquil again, penance for his actions leading to the deaths of dozens of people.
It wasn't Cole's ramblings, you read the actual words coming out of Pharamond's mouth in their conversation. Unless you want to say we as the reader are under the influence of Cole...
Ah yes, 'murder', a crime committed against figures in a DA narrative, oh, we have dismissed that claim.
They did not 'murder' anyone, they helped them. They set them free.
I want what you're smoking
How much you willin' to pay?
The issue on Adrian vs. PCs I guess is a question of the actions within the narrative. My biggest issue with it isn't actually the "murder", lets be honest, people get murdered all the time in DA and I won't deny Pharamond wanted to die, its more the idea of the act in conjunction with the frame up, the timing of it, the fact that whether Pharamond wanted to die or not had no bearing on Adrian's actions, her simple goal was to influence events at the conclave. I fully believe, in my personal opinion, that Adrian would have killed Pharamond even if he pleaded for his life when she came to kill him, he was a pawn to get what she wanted. Its in the same sense that I think Lambert was an idiot for how he responded to it all.
I don't know if she would have or not.
I believe that the war, however, was inevitable by that point, and that Adrian's actions led to greater solidarity amongst the mages, bringing not only Wynne, but the Divine onto their side. I believe that it was the right strategic choice; a difficult call, but not fundamentally different from, say, ordering a tactical retreat and leaving other soldiers to die because you can't save them.
It wasn't Cole's ramblings, you read the actual words coming out of Pharamond's mouth in their conversation. Unless you want to say we as the reader are under the influence of Cole...
Demon mind controlling people into agreeing to be murdered?
No!
I'd always thought as much, am i the only one who did?
I'd still call both Murder, just one a mass murder, act of terrorism, whatever.
Either or.
I don't see how it's murder when Pharamond wants to die, because he finds the alternative that much worse. It's addressed by Fenris that suicide is a sin, so I can see why Pharamond would have preferred that someone kill him.
As for Anders, the nature of the Chantry controlled Circles is part of the issue for his destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry. For some, his actions are terrorism, plain and simple; for others, he's taking action to abolish the slavery of his people by any means necessary, including killing people who belong to the institution that has control over his people. The circular discussion about this act hasn't really reached any new ground in years, because there is no consensus to be reached among people who have the complete opposite reaction about what Anders did.
And given we only have her word for it along with Cole's inane rambling i'm not much of a believer of him even having said it to be honest.
Either way though, ultimately i think it was his penance to become tranquil again, penance for his actions leading to the deaths of dozens of people.
I don't see why Pharamond should pay penance when he was doing what he was told, as a tranquil, especially given how compliant we saw the tranquil in Kirkwall.
Wcholcombe brings up a good point even if Pharamond wasn't asking for death she would've killed him anyway and framed Rhys
Possibly. It's also possible that if Lambert wasn't so horrible, he wouldn't have pressed the war, but that would have required him to be a different person, so there's not much point in talking about it.
I don't see how it's murder when Pharamond wants to die, because he finds the alternative that much worse. It's addressed by Fenris that suicide is a sin, so I can see why Pharamond would have preferred that someone kill him.
As for Anders, the nature of the Chantry controlled Circles is part of the issue for his destruction of the Kirkwall Chantry. For some, his actions are terrorism, plain and simple; for others, he's taking action to abolish the slavery of his people by any means necessary, including killing people who belong to the institution that has control over his people. The circular discussion about this act hasn't really reached any new ground in years, because there is no consensus to be reached among people who have the complete opposite reaction about what Anders did.
I don't see why Pharamond should pay penance when he was doing what he was told, as a tranquil, especially given how compliant we saw the tranquil in Kirkwall.
Or he was merely compelled to say such a thing you know, given the whole demon, blood magic business.
And the circle isn't slavery, doesn't fit any of the criteria, so to me its mere hyperbole of the pro mages, not much else. Said as much to Anders in game So he can stick to his mass murdering ways, Ultimately it was his politics that dictated him to do it, well that allowing a spirit to posses him, genius.
Because ultimately the choice to do such a thing was up to him, Him following the Divine's will, his choice, Him experimenting with such a thing out in the middle of nowhere with no one to protect the innocent was ultimately on him and the Divine both, but it was by her will that he do it with out Templar escort.
I'd say her blame is greater, but he needed to be punished as well.
Possibly. It's also possible that if Lambert wasn't so horrible, he wouldn't have pressed the war, but that would have required him to be a different person, so there's not much point in talking about it.
Oh you mean by interrupting their talk of treason? Going after a suspected Murder? Those great offenses warrant acts of war to you? He wasn't the one who murdered the tranquil, he wasn't the one pushing for that battle, he was willing to fight it but he didn't move to make it reality like Adrian did.
Oh you mean by interrupting their talk of treason? Going after a suspected Murder? Those great offenses warrant acts of war to you? He wasn't the one who murdered the tranquil, he wasn't the one pushing for that battle, he was willing to fight it but he didn't move to make it reality like Adrian did.
Funnily, he had to do exactly the same thing the mages did to actually have the war he wanted, as the Chantry didn't press the issue.
Wcholcombe brings up a good point even if Pharamond wasn't asking for death she would've killed him anyway and framed Rhys
I don't think the reader can ever know that for certain. Killing someone who is literally begging to die (especially when the Rite of Tranquility awaits him) is drastically different than killing someone who doesn't.
I don't know if she would have or not.
I believe that the war, however, was inevitable by that point, and that Adrian's actions led to greater solidarity amongst the mages, bringing not only Wynne, but the Divine onto their side. I believe that it was the right strategic choice; a difficult call, but not fundamentally different from, say, ordering a tactical retreat and leaving other soldiers to die because you can't save them.
We will disagree on Adrian. I don't think she cared about anything but her "crusade" at that point. Heck she was ticked when Rhys saved Evangeline at Adamant.
-This I disagree with and don't know that I can disagree with anything more strongly. The Divine was already on their side, her position hasn't changed. She wants the circles to continue, but realizes the need form modernizing and reforming the way it works. Wynne was manipulated by putting her son in danger for something he didn't do. The idea that the war was inevitable is shortsighted. If the divine's plan plays out, Lambert is either removed from power for insubordinance, or the templars leave the chantry, are made to be the bad guys for acting first, and I would imagine, leave the circles under the control of the Divine and those Templars/seekers who remained loyal to the Chantry, which would have been much greater if you don't give Lambert the mage revolt served up on a silver platter as an excuse to sieze absolute autonomy.
You honestly believe that a war between the mages and templars was not inevitable? If not in Asunder, it would have happened eventually. Adrian, Anders and Fiona will not go away, neither will your Lamberts and Cullens. The pot finally boiled over. The best the divine could have done is postpone it.
We will disagree on Adrian. I don't think she cared about anything but her "crusade" at that point. Heck she was ticked when Rhys saved Evangeline at Adamant.
-This I disagree with and don't know that I can disagree with anything more strongly. The Divine was already on their side, her position hasn't changed. She wants the circles to continue, but realizes the need form modernizing and reforming the way it works. Wynne was manipulated by putting her son in danger for something he didn't do. The idea that the war was inevitable is shortsighted. If the divine's plan plays out, Lambert is either removed from power for insubordinance, or the templars leave the chantry, are made to be the bad guys for acting first, and I would imagine, leave the circles under the control of the Divine and those Templars/seekers who remained loyal to the Chantry, which would have been much greater if you don't give Lambert the mage revolt served up on a silver platter as an excuse to sieze absolute autonomy.
I don't believe Justinia would have been able to control Lambert in the long run; it was strongly implied he tried to have her killed already before in the same book, and that was barely stopped. I think he did it so flamboyantly because he wanted to blame the mages, but if he decided that that wasn't worth pursuing, he could very easily get a Crow or two to do the job, getting the templars who'd be guarding Justinia to look the other way. And with Justinia gone, Lambert would have an open avenue to clamp down on the entire Chantry; by bringing the issue to a boil early, Adrian ensured that no such trickery could succeed, and that sides would have to be taken very quickly and publicly. I can see why some might want to avoid doing so, but it'd be a very risky play and I don't really blame Adrian for not making it.
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