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[wcholcombe]

Possibly. It's also possible that if Lambert wasn't so horrible, he wouldn't have pressed the war, but that would have required him to be a different person, so there's not much point in talking about it.

 

 

Oh you mean by interrupting their talk of treason? Going after a suspected Murder? Those great offenses warrant acts of war to you? He wasn't the one who murdered the tranquil, he wasn't the one pushing for that battle, he was willing to fight it but he didn't move to make it reality like Adrian did.

 

 

Funnily, he had to do exactly the same thing the mages did to actually have the war he wanted, as the Chantry didn't press the issue.

Lambert was as much a fool for how he handled it. Let the mages have their meaningless powerless vote for freedom.  It would have meant nothing.  If the enchanters voted for freedom, wiped dee freackin doo, they don't have the authority to leave the circles.  If they voted it down, which may well have occurred without Lambert's actions, than nothing occurs.

 

Lambert should have arrested Rhys after the conclave was over.  Instead he played right into Adrian, if not Fiona's, hand because of his pride.

[LobselVith8]

Or he was merely compelled to say such a thing you know, given the whole demon, blood magic business.

 

Going down that route, how do you know Cole didn't force Adrian to kill Pharamond because of "blood magic business"?

 

And the circle isn't slavery, doesn't fit any of the criteria, so to me its mere hyperbole of the pro mages, not much else. Said as much to Anders in game So he can stick to his mass murdering ways, Ultimately it was his politics that dictated him to do it, well that allowing a spirit to posses him, genius.

 

I recall debates about this going back as far as five years ago, compounded by what Aldenon the Wise said when he opposed Calenhad's decision to allow the Circle and templars into Ferelden, and what pro-mage Hawke says about the Chantry controlled Circles. That also lead to an inability for either side to reach a consensus on the matter.

 

Because ultimately the choice to do such a thing was up to him, Him following the Divine's will, his choice, Him experimenting with such a thing out in the middle of nowhere with no one to protect the innocent was ultimately on him and the Divine both, but it was by her will that he do it with out Templar escort.

 

I'd say her blame is greater, but he needed to be punished as well.

 

Pharamond was tranquil at the time. I don't see why Pharamond should be blamed for the actions he committed while under the Rite.

[AresKeith]

I don't think the reader can ever know that for certain. Killing someone who is literally begging to die (especially when the Rite of Tranquility awaits him) is drastically different than killing someone who doesn't.

It's still murder regardless, plus her actively framing someone close to her makes it even worse

[wcholcombe]

I don't think the reader can ever know that for certain. Killing someone who is literally begging to die (especially when the Rite of Tranquility awaits him) is drastically different than killing someone who doesn't.

Considering he never begs for death until he is already in his cell awaiting tranquility, Adrian didn't know he wanted to die, until she already went their with Rhys's knife in hand. 

 

All he did prior to that was sob uncontrollably. Adrian didn't know he wanted to die until she was already committed to doing it.  Also, considering I doubt the templars let her waltz into Pharamond's cell and kill him, it makes sense that she got in there in a method that I am certain would have allowed her to let Pharamod escape if she was truly concerned about him.  Add into the fact, that this didn't happen until after Rhys told her he wouldn't convince Wynne to support the vote for independence and that he thought it was a bad idea, yeah I think Pharamond was going to die why Adrian went to his cell regardless of if he wanted to or not.

[Xilizhra]

It's still murder regardless, plus her actively framing someone close to her makes it even worse

I personally don't think it matters as to how close they were. It might damage Rhys' emotions more, to be sure, but that's a comparatively tiny thing when you look at everything else happening.

[Master Warder Z_]

Going down that route, how do you know Cole didn't force Adrian to kill Pharamond because of "blood magic business"?

 

 

I recall debates about this going back as far as five years ago, compounded by what Aldenon the Wise said when he opposed Calenhad's decision to allow the Circle and templars into Ferelden, and what pro-mage Hawke says about the Chantry controlled Circles. That also lead to an inability for either side to reach a consensus on the matter.

 

 

Pharamond was tranquil at the time. I don't see why Pharamond should be blamed for the actions he committed while under the Rite.

 

They didn't interact? Both given we see Cole there and people suddenly want to die around him, i always thought it was odd, didn't you? Blood Magic control of the thought process would explain it i think.

 

Tranquil have free will? If they can let armed thugs into the dang White spire clearly they can decide that operating dangerous experiments with out, you know at least ONE templar is a bad idea. Logically speaking

[wcholcombe]

You honestly believe that a war between the mages and templars was not inevitable? If not in Asunder, it would have happened eventually. Adrian, Anders and Fiona will not go away, neither will your Lamberts and Cullens. The pot finally boiled over. The best the divine could have done is postpone it.

No I don't.  The mages had issues and concerns about some of the practices of the templars.  The Divine was committed to making reforms and it seems like she was looking into getting rid of the right of tranquility.  Several potential wars have never occurred when the powerful individuals involved make honest and appreciable reforms to address the issues leading to it.

 

And btw, don't put Lambert in the same Category as Cullen.  Cullen is middle ground. He holds similar if not the same types of views as Evangeline. He isn't in Lambert's or Adrian or Ander's league.  Fiona may be more middle ground than I give her credit for, but calling for that stupid vote when she did ticks me off.

[LobselVith8]

It's still murder regardless, plus her actively framing someone close to her makes it even worse

 

When the person in question desperately wants to die because he'll be made tranquil otherwise, I don't think it's murder. If Pharamond didn't want to die, than that would be another matter entirely.

[Xilizhra]

No I don't.  The mages had issues and concerns about some of the practices of the templars.  The Divine was committed to making reforms and it seems like she was looking into getting rid of the right of tranquility.  Several potential wars have never occurred when the powerful individuals involved make honest and appreciable reforms to address the issues leading to it.

 

And btw, don't put Lambert in the same Category as Cullen.  Cullen is middle ground. He holds similar if not the same types of views as Evangeline. He isn't in Lambert's or Adrian or Ander's league.  Fiona may be more middle ground than I give her credit for, but calling for that stupid vote when she did ticks me off.

Cullen's views aren't like Evangeline's at all. Evangeline left the Order when she saw how rotten it had become; Cullen stayed even through a ridiculous Annulment.

 

And the Divine's reforms... I'm sorry, but they weren't even close to enough.

[The Elder King]

I don't think the reader can ever know that for certain. Killing someone who is literally begging to die (especially when the Rite of Tranquility awaits him) is drastically different than killing someone who doesn't.

I said the same think to Xilizhra yesterday. Adrian went where Pharamond was with the intent of killing him. Prior to that, she had no clue that Pharamond preferred to die than to be a tranquil. Pharamond was horrified during the meeting with the divine, but it doesn't mean (at that point) that he wanted to die.

[AresKeith]

I personally don't think it matters as to how close they were. It might damage Rhys' emotions more, to be sure, but that's a comparatively tiny thing when you look at everything else happening.

The fact that she did it anyway for her own cause makes her garbage

[wcholcombe]

I don't believe Justinia would have been able to control Lambert in the long run; it was strongly implied he tried to have her killed already before in the same book, and that was barely stopped. I think he did it so flamboyantly because he wanted to blame the mages, but if he decided that that wasn't worth pursuing, he could very easily get a Crow or two to do the job, getting the templars who'd be guarding Justinia to look the other way. And with Justinia gone, Lambert would have an open avenue to clamp down on the entire Chantry; by bringing the issue to a boil early, Adrian ensured that no such trickery could succeed, and that sides would have to be taken very quickly and publicly. I can see why some might want to avoid doing so, but it'd be a very risky play and I don't really blame Adrian for not making it.

ok Xil, it was never implied that he was the one responsible for the mage making the attempt on her life. Personally, I think it was whomever is behind all crap going on in the world in DAI was the one pulling those strings.  At that point I don't think Lambert was that antagonistic against the Divine.

 

And again, I think the Divine would have one way or another run over Lambert if the mages didn't pull their stunt.  What Fiona and company did was give Lambert an excuse that his templars wouldn't question.  Whereas if he had acted directly against the divine's attempts to reform things in the circle he wouldn't have been on such a highground, as it would have been seen as a power play by the lord seeker instead of framing it in the method that their actions allowed Lambert to frame it in.  Also, given the choice between orders from the Lord Seeker and acting against the Divine, I believe that templars, who are recruited from among the most faithful, would follow the divine if Lambert was acting directly to kill her.  Heck it was a templar who saved her from the attempt.

 

Adrian wasn't trying to stop some plot by Lambert.  She wanted what she wanted and be damned what it costs other people.

[EmissaryofLies]

No I don't.  The mages had issues and concerns about some of the practices of the templars.  The Divine was committed to making reforms and it seems like she was looking into getting rid of the right of tranquility.  Several potential wars have never occurred when the powerful individuals involved make honest and appreciable reforms to address the issues leading to it.

 

And btw, don't put Lambert in the same Category as Cullen.  Cullen is middle ground. He holds similar if not the same types of views as Evangeline. He isn't in Lambert's or Adrian or Ander's league.  Fiona may be more middle ground than I give her credit for, but calling for that stupid vote when she did ticks me off.

 

Several wars have been averted yes. Would this be the case for Mages and Templars? How long before the Templars start falling into old ways, assuming that they even go along with Justinia? How long before the mages start with their blood magic and trying to break free? This was a pot that had been sitting on the stove for a thousand years. This was going to happen. Anders, Adrian and Lambert will not be the last of their kind.

 

Cullen doesn't even view the mages as people and it seemed that he wasn't adamantly opposed to the Tranquil solution, as a matter of fact it's believed that he deemed tranquility as a 'mercy'. The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason you can refer to Cullen as middle ground is because he's got Hitler, another rapist, and KKKnight Commander Meredith to contend with. Put him next to Greagoir and see if your perspective does not change.

[Master Warder Z_]

Cullen's views aren't like Evangeline's at all. Evangeline left the Order when she saw how rotten it had become; Cullen stayed even through a ridiculous Annulment.

 

And the Divine's reforms... I'm sorry, but they weren't even close to enough.

 

For once Xil we agree.

 

The Actions of the Divine weren't enough, She shouldn't forsake her oath to the Chantry, and she shouldn't have forsaken the Templar order as she did, Ultimately her attempting to play favorites caused this conflict as much as Anders or Fiona.

[Xilizhra]

The fact that she did it anyway for her own cause makes her garbage

I personally would consider it a positive quality, as personal isn't the same as important.

 

 

ok Xil, it was never implied that he was the one responsible for the mage making the attempt on her life. Personally, I think it was whomever is behind all crap going on in the world in DAI was the one pulling those strings.  At that point I don't think Lambert was that antagonistic against the Divine.

 

And again, I think the Divine would have one way or another run over Lambert if the mages didn't pull their stunt.  What Fiona and company did was give Lambert an excuse that his templars wouldn't question.  Whereas if he had acted directly against the divine's attempts to reform things in the circle he wouldn't have been on such a highground, as it would have been seen as a power play by the lord seeker instead of framing it in the method that their actions allowed Lambert to frame it in.  Also, given the choice between orders from the Lord Seeker and acting against the Divine, I believe that templars, who are recruited from among the most faithful, would follow the divine if Lambert was acting directly to kill her.  Heck it was a templar who saved her from the attempt.

 

Adrian wasn't trying to stop some plot by Lambert.  She wanted what she wanted and be damned what it costs other people.

Justinia's opinions were described as being too unpopular for that to work. Even if he had been making a power play, it'd have been far from unsupported, and from what we've seen of the templars so far, they're much more in line with Lambert than Justinia (they are a military order, after all). And the templar there saved her from a mage, not from another templar (of course, her loyalty to the Order was never solid to begin with).

[LobselVith8]

Considering he never begs for death until he is already in his cell awaiting tranquility, Adrian didn't know he wanted to die, until she already went their with Rhys's knife in hand. 

 

I don't think the reader is in a position to know that with any certainty. We know what happened after the fact, but there's quite a great deal that we're still in the dark about, which is why we can debate this event, given the ambiguity surrounding it.

 

All he did prior to that was sob uncontrollably. Adrian didn't know he wanted to die until she was already committed to doing it.  Also, considering I doubt the templars let her waltz into Pharamond's cell and kill him, it makes sense that she got in there in a method that I am certain would have allowed her to let Pharamod escape if she was truly concerned about him.  Add into the fact, that this didn't happen until after Rhys told her he wouldn't convince Wynne to support the vote for independence and that he thought it was a bad idea, yeah I think Pharamond was going to die why Adrian went to his cell regardless of if he wanted to or not.

 

Would escape have been possible? Or was a mercy killing the only method that would have allowed Pharamond to evade the Rite of Tranquility with any certainty? We're venturing into speculation at this point.

[wcholcombe]

Cullen's views aren't like Evangeline's at all. Evangeline left the Order when she saw how rotten it had become; Cullen stayed even through a ridiculous Annulment.

 

And the Divine's reforms... I'm sorry, but they weren't even close to enough.

Cullen saved mages during the Anullment from Meredith, Cullen orders Meredith to stand down against the Inquisitor, Cullen protects Mages in Kirkwall.  In DA2 Cullen is middle ground.  Evangeline didn't leave the order until Lambert tried to arrest her boyfriend.  Up until that point she was still being a dutiful Templar who disagreed with her commander, same as Cullen

[LobselVith8]

They didn't interact? Both given we see Cole there and people suddenly want to die around him, i always thought it was odd, didn't you? Blood Magic control of the thought process would explain it i think.

 

Given Karl begging for death because he wanted to avoid becoming tranquil again, I don't think it was odd.

 

Tranquil have free will? If they can let armed thugs into the dang White spire clearly they can decide that operating dangerous experiments with out, you know at least ONE templar is a bad idea. Logically speaking

 

I think the actions of Owain (during the crisis with the abominations) and Karl (when he helped the templars lure Anders into a trap) demonstrate that it's not quite as simple as that.

[wcholcombe]

Several wars have been averted yes. Would this be the case for Mages and Templars? How long before the Templars start falling into old ways, assuming that they even go along with Justinia? How long before the mages start with their blood magic and trying to break free? This was a pot that had been sitting on the stove for a thousand years. This was going to happen. Anders, Adrian and Lambert will not be the last of their kind.

 

Cullen doesn't even view the mages as people and it seemed that he wasn't adamantly opposed to the Tranquil solution, as a matter of fact it's believed that he deemed tranquility as a 'mercy'. The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason you can refer to Cullen as middle ground is because he's got Hitler, another rapist, and KKKnight Commander Meredith to contend with. Put him next to Greagoir and see if your perspective does not change.

actually I think in DA2 Cullen shows that he has grown greatly to agree with Greagoir. 

[Xilizhra]

Cullen saved mages during the Anullment from Meredith, Cullen orders Meredith to stand down against the Inquisitor, Cullen protects Mages in Kirkwall.  In DA2 Cullen is middle ground.  Evangeline didn't leave the order until Lambert tried to arrest her boyfriend.  Up until that point she was still being a dutiful Templar who disagreed with her commander, same as Cullen

No, he didn't. We discussed before how they'd be made Tranquil afterwards. In any case, he only does so, or protects any mages in Kirkwall, with Hawke's say-so (and persuasion). As for Hawke (not the Inquisitor), Cullen is a moron for not realizing that Meredith planned on killing her sooner and a hypocrite when he makes a fuss about it.

Cullen is not middle ground. He may deserve his fair showing in DAI, yes... but if he does, Adrian does as well.

[AresKeith]

The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason you can refer to Cullen as middle ground is because he's got Hitler, another rapist, and [b]KKKnight Commander Meredith[b] to contend with. Put him next to Greagoir and see if your perspective does not change.

Really dude?

[wcholcombe]

I don't think the reader is in a position to know that with any certainty. We know what happened after the fact, but there's quite a great deal that we're still in the dark about, which is why we can debate this event, given the ambiguity surrounding it.

 

 

Would escape have been possible? Or was a mercy killing the only method that would have allowed Pharamond to evade the Rite of Tranquility with any certainty? We're venturing into speculation at this point.

Pharamond is put into his cell to await tranquility right after meeting with the Divine and he doesn't mention at all wanting to die, he just sobs uncontrollably.

Adrian like Rhys was under house arrest and wasn't supposed to leave her room, yet she is able to get into Pharamond's cell without notice?  I am thinking she knows a secret passage or some other way into that cell past the Templars guarding it. Thus I fully believe she could have freed Pharamond if it was truly her goal.

[LobselVith8]

I said the same think to Xilizhra yesterday. Adrian went where Pharamond was with the intent of killing him. Prior to that, she had no clue that Pharamond preferred to die than to be a tranquil. Pharamond was horrified during the meeting with the divine, but it doesn't mean (at that point) that he wanted to die.

 

There's a lot of ambiguity surrounding that entire incident. Honestly, I don't think the reader will ever really know for certain, which I think was intentional.

[AresKeith]

I personally would consider it a positive quality, as personal isn't the same as important.

How is that a positive quality?

[Xilizhra]

Really dude?

I agree with the incredulity... because Greagoir's not really much better himself.

 

 

How is that a positive quality?

I thought being able to put aside personal feelings for the greater good was frequently considered a virtue.