8640 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Cullen is not middle ground. He may deserve his fair showing in DAI, yes... but if he does, Adrian does as well.

I highly doubt we'll see that from Adrian

[LobselVith8]

actually I think in DA2 Cullen shows that he has grown greatly to agree with Greagoir. 

 

Perhaps in Inquisition. I know the developers said Cullen was a "moderate" templar in Dragon Age II, but he says some rather extreme things in Acts I and II. His decision to stand by Meredith when she admits she's going through with the Right of Annulment is a strong issue of contention for some, compounded by the fact that Cullen only stops Meredith when she is willing to kill the pro-mage Champion... for reasons that don't really add up.

 

Admittedly, I think it was a mishandling of the character (much like Leliana, who came across to some as anti-mage in "Faith"), so I think Inquisition could do better with his characterization and story arc, but I can see why Cullen's actions in Kirkwall would grate with some people.

[The Elder King]

There's a lot of ambiguity surrounding that entire incident. Honestly, I don't think the reader will ever really know for certain, which I think was intentional.

I don't see how her intentions weren't clear. She went to Pharamond with a precise goal.
Do you believe it's possible that she planned what to do, but decided to see if Pharamod wanted to die.

[wcholcombe]

No, he didn't. We discussed before how they'd be made Tranquil afterwards. In any case, he only does so, or protects any mages in Kirkwall, with Hawke's say-so (and persuasion). As for Hawke (not the Inquisitor), Cullen is a moron for not realizing that Meredith planned on killing her sooner and a hypocrite when he makes a fuss about it.

Cullen is not middle ground. He may deserve his fair showing in DAI, yes... but if he does, Adrian does as well.

Xil, in regards to Adrian being compared to Cullen, show me where Cullen has done something for his own personal agenda.  Cullen serves the order and does what he feels is best regarding his order.  Adrian manipulates events to get a war she has been wanting for years regardless of if it was even necessary or the cost that it will have.  I personally almost wish Rhys had had the stones to vote against war just so Adrian wouldn't win.......

[EmissaryofLies]

Really dude?

 

I'm as surprised as you are, we normally agree on just about everything. I thought you were my Dragon Age friend, Ares, I'm hurt.

[The Elder King]

Cullen is not middle ground. He may deserve his fair showing in DAI, yes... but if he does, Adrian does as well.

If Cullen is in DAI, there might be a chance he might be killable. Would you like the same treatment for Adrian?

[Xilizhra]

Xil, in regards to Adrian being compared to Cullen, show me where Cullen has done something for his own personal agenda.  Cullen serves the order and does what he feels is best regarding his order.  Adrian manipulates events to get a war she has been wanting for years regardless of if it was even necessary or the cost that it will have.  I personally almost wish Rhys had had the stones to vote against war just so Adrian wouldn't win.......

Committing genocide is pretty horrible even if it wasn't his personal agenda. Far worse, I daresay.

 

 

 
If Cullen is in DAI, there might be a chance he might be killable. Would you like he same treatment for Adrian? 

Your extortion attempt is admittedly clever. However, since Cullen will inevitably be in DAI in some form, we may as well have Adrian (provided Fiona can be unkillable).

[EmperorSahlertz]

There's a lot of ambiguity surrounding that entire incident. Honestly, I don't think the reader will ever really know for certain, which I think was intentional.

So you think that she went to Pharamond's quarters for no reason at all, with a dagger... Then decided that "hey, why the hell not randomly kill this guy, he is askign for it after all...." and THEN proceeding to fram her ex for the crime? And you think she did ALL THIS in the spur of the moment.... Yeah... that is called white washing...

[AresKeith]

I thought being able to put aside personal feelings for the greater good was frequently considered a virtue.

Greater Good? Not really surprised by you saying that either. Framing an innocent person to trick him into making a vote he was becoming against because Wynne was right, not mention that Adrian's actions lead to Wynne's death is not the greater good

All it shows is that Adrian is a piece of trash

[LobselVith8]

I don't see how her intentions weren't clear. She went to Pharamond with a precise goal.
Do you believe it's possible that she planned what to do, but decided to see if Pharamod wanted to die.

 

Honestly, I just think there are a lot of unknown factors. If Adrian is in Inquisition, there might be clarification on precisely what was going on in her mind when she killed Pharamond (in the same way that Zevran confessed as to why he took on the suicide mission to kill Grey Wardens), but until then, I don't think any of us will know for certain.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If Cullen is in DAI, there might be a chance he might be killable. Would you like the same treatment for Adrian?

You know that he doesn't even want the the possibility of siding with the Templars to be present..

[Master Warder Z_]

Committing genocide is pretty horrible even if it wasn't his personal agenda. Far worse, I daresay.

 

Mass usage of hyperbole is far worse then other grammatical usages you might employ in it's stead

 

Cullen didn't even participate in the Annulment, He was with Meredith the entire time and they didn't even draw their blades until Orsino went Harvester.

[LobselVith8]

So you think that she went to Pharamond's quarters for no reason at all, with a dagger... Then decided that "hey, why the hell not randomly kill this guy, he is askign for it after all...." and THEN proceeding to fram her ex for the crime? And you think she did ALL THIS in the spur of the moment.... Yeah... that is called white washing...

 

Addressing speculation because of what we know after the fact doesn't tell us for certain what actually happened. That's my point.

[wcholcombe]

Perhaps in Inquisition. I know the developers said Cullen was a "moderate" templar in Dragon Age II, but he says some rather extreme things in Acts I and II. His decision to stand by Meredith when she admits she's going through with the Right of Annulment is a strong issue of contention for some, compounded by the fact that Cullen only stops Meredith when she is willing to kill the pro-mage Champion... for reasons that don't really add up.

 

Admittedly, I think it was a mishandling of the character (much like Leliana, who came across to some as anti-mage in "Faith"), so I think Inquisition could do better with his characterization and story arc, but I can see why Cullen's actions in Kirkwall would grate with some people.

I can understand his action grating on people.  But he isn't in the same league as Adrian, Lambert, Anders, Meredith, Uldred etc.  He isn't all or nothing his way or else in DA2.  He is a middle ground. Sure he says some extreme things, but his actions are what I am referring to.  DAO to DA2 he goes from killing everyone after what happened to him and his comrades, to protecting mages from a ROA order from his superior, and with all do respect to David Gaider, I don't think they would have been tranquiled anymore than the entire tower in Ferelden was summarly tranquiled.

 

Do I think he is a perfect human being? No. but I don't live in a world with mages either.  He is to a degree the middle ground.  A templar is going to have to view mages through a certain light. Not as harsh as has been the mainstream representation, but they do have to keep a perspective of what their charges are capable of.

[Master Warder Z_]

You know that he doesn't even want the the possibility of siding with the Templars to be present..

 

Yeah, its sad when personal bias tries to infringe upon player freedom

[AresKeith]

Honestly, I just think there are a lot of unknown factors. If Adrian is in Inquisition, there might be clarification on precisely what was going on in her mind when she killed Pharamond (in the same way that Zevran confessed as to why he took on the suicide mission to kill Grey Wardens), but until then, I don't think any of us will know for certain.

Her framing Rhys is pretty obvious what her intentions were

[Asdrubael Vect]

people what Adrian do wrong?

 

kill/give dagger(we does not have info that she is kill him) for Pharamond who really want to die rather than be tranquil slave for Templars?

 

and thats all?

[The Elder King]

 

Your extortion attempt is admittedly clever. However, since Cullen will inevitably be in DAI in some form, we may as well have Adrian (provided Fiona can be unkillable).

What do you mean with extortion? I don't necessarily want to kill Adrian.

[Xilizhra]

What do you mean with extortion? I don't necessarily want to kill Adrian.

The "have me want to not include Adrian so that no one can kill her" thing. But what would you do with her?

[wcholcombe]

Addressing speculation because of what we know after the fact doesn't tell us for certain what actually happened. That's my point.

But Lob, you are speculating that she knew he wanted to die, when everything we have seen in Asunder says she had no knowledge of that and wouldn't have had access to Pharamond anyway.

[LobselVith8]

You know that he doesn't even want the the possibility of siding with the Templars to be present..

 

He?

[eyezonlyii]

What really bothers me about the representation is that most of the framework for the all out war is not in one of the games. If I weren't on the Bioware network, I would have no idea about Asunder, and the events leading up to the Mage/Templar war. Unfortunately that would leave only DA:O and DA2 to explain why the Mages and Templars were fighting.

[The Elder King]

You know that he doesn't even want the the possibility of siding with the Templars to be present..

Yes, I know. Even if it were the case, though, it doesn't mean that Adrian would be automatically unkillable. Xilizhra stated that she's not against a pro-Chantry path, and that isn't something Adrian would like

[LobselVith8]

I can understand his action grating on people.  But he isn't in the same league as Adrian, Lambert, Anders, Meredith, Uldred etc.  He isn't all or nothing his way or else in DA2.  He is a middle ground. Sure he says some extreme things, but his actions are what I am referring to.  DAO to DA2 he goes from killing everyone after what happened to him and his comrades, to protecting mages from a ROA order from his superior, and with all do respect to David Gaider, I don't think they would have been tranquiled anymore than the entire tower in Ferelden was summarly tranquiled.

 

Do I think he is a perfect human being? No. but I don't live in a world with mages either.  He is to a degree the middle ground.  A templar is going to have to view mages through a certain light. Not as harsh as has been the mainstream representation, but they do have to keep a perspective of what their charges are capable of.

 

Cullen's decision not to stop Meredith's Right of Annulment when she specifically threatened the Champion is the primary issue for some people. I realize that Cullen is supposed to be the "middle ground" templar, but I don't think he comes across as one. It's the same for Leliana; it had to be pointed out to the developers that she came across as anti-mage for some players, and the developers (apparently) never picked up on that.

 

Adrian killed Pharamond; Anders destroyed the Kirkwall Chantry; Meredith condemned an entire population of people to die over an act they weren't responsible for, and Cullen only steps in when Hawke's life is on the line. That's going to cause problems for some people, even though I think it's simply an example of the creators dropping the ball (much like they did if the Champion warns Cullen about Anders' plot against the Chantry).

[wcholcombe]

people what Adrian do wrong?

 

kill/give dagger(we does not have info that she is kill him) for Pharamond who really want to die rather than be tranquil slave for Templars?

 

and thats all?

Frame her best friend for murder.

Use another being's death as a pawn for her ambitions of manipulating Wynne and Rhys.

The murder itself.

Pharamond wanted to die, but all indications are that Adrian would not have known this.  If Rhys and Wynne would have gone along with the vote for independence, Pharamond would have been made tranquil and Adrian wouldn't have even thought about killing him.