And what is occurring because of this?
Its been labeled as Archaic and combated politically, if not militarily by rebels who keep ripping those countries apart. my point is even in our reality when you put notions like this out there, they come under assault rapidly.
Only people that support the system outnumber the rebels by large.
We know the Imperium would most probably collapse without slavery. Both Fenris and the codex entries say this.
Yes, but slaves should work something to be a valuable asset of the economy.
Well Tevinter is not really an "Empire" now as all the lands they hold right now are originally theirs and are not conquered. Therefore they don't have to worry about civil wars started by other people so they focus on Slave revolts.
Well Tevinter is not really an "Empire" now as all the lands they hold right now are originally theirs and are not conquered. Therefore they don't have to worry about civil wars started by other people so they focus on Slave revolts.
Roman and Byzantine Empires were called empires long after all their expanded territories were taken.
Only people that support the system outnumber the rebels by large.
Doesn't seem to stop them from winning though does it?
The dwarves don't know where the blight came from. They just know 15 years or so after the 1st blight started darkspawn started invading the deep roads.
That is blatantly false. The blight didn't officially start until after they lost most of their empire.
I am replaying Origins as a dwarf noble, and I've carefully read every single bit of lore I gathered in the origin, especially those concerning darkspawn. The dwarves outright dismiss the idea of darkspawn coming from the surface or the Fade since the darkspawn started attacking them from below even their underground empire. History of Orzammar chapter 1 talks about missing travelers, or small isolated attacks, so they increased patrols and called it good.
Chapter 2 discusses how large the darkspawn army was, and how they were completely overwhelmed, losing thaig after thaig. The dwarven codex on darkspawn and blights talks about how an Aeducan scout thought they were winning the war when they came across the main body of the darkspawn; he saw the archdemon before they started pushing towards the surface. Aeducan, Shield of Orzammar discusses Paragon Aeducan and how he united all the warrior caste, bypassed the nobles and the assembly entirely, and pushed back the darkspawn from Orzammar, and how his insubordination earned him Paragon status, and he still considered it a defeat that he couldn't save more and was forced to seal off most of the Deep Roads.
The dwarves however completely and utterly dismiss any notion of the darkspawn originating on the surface since all their records going back thousands of years say that the darkspawn came from below even their lowest thaigs.
At present, there is only one place known in the games and lore that is below even the Deep Roads and the dwarven empire. The Primeval Thaig.
Is it concrete proof? No. But it is enough to make it clear that there is far more to the origin of darkspawn than the Chant of Light, or even Corypheus would have us believe. There are too many unanswered questions.
Like, if the Corypheus and the other magisters truly were the first darkspawn, how on earth would they know how to make broodmothers? How would they know where to find the Old Gods since, as Awakened Darkspawn like the Architect and as Corypheus confirms in Legacy, they can't hear the song. Or how they somehow managed to sneak into the deep roads at the height of the dwarven empire, go through patrolled tunnels, and build an army without the dwarves ever noticing? Also, since Corypheus survived the ages, sealed by the Grey Wardens, what happened to the other magisters? Were they killed in the blight, were they sealed as well, were they captured by the dwarves, or something else?
Roman and Byzantine Empires were called empires long after all their expanded territories were taken.
Being called something =/= Actually being one.
It will always be called Tevinter Imprerium but it does not match the criteria needed for being one.
Being called something =/= Actually being one.
It will always be called Tevinter Imprerium but it does not match the criteria needed for being one.
I quite agree, they don't match single definition of the term "empire". Just a convenient way of speaking.
That is blatantly false. The blight didn't officially start until after they lost most of their empire.
I am replaying Origins as a dwarf noble, and I've carefully read every single bit of lore I gathered in the origin, especially those concerning darkspawn. The dwarves outright dismiss the idea of darkspawn coming from the surface or the Fade since the darkspawn started attacking them from below even their underground empire. History of Orzammar chapter 1 talks about missing travelers, or small isolated attacks, so they increased patrols and called it good.
Chapter 2 discusses how large the darkspawn army was, and how they were completely overwhelmed, losing thaig after thaig. The dwarven codex on darkspawn and blights talks about how an Aeducan scout thought they were winning the war when they came across the main body of the darkspawn; he saw the archdemon before they started pushing towards the surface. Aeducan, Shield of Orzammar discusses Paragon Aeducan and how he united all the warrior caste, bypassed the nobles and the assembly entirely, and pushed back the darkspawn from Orzammar, and how his insubordination earned him Paragon status, and he still considered it a defeat that he couldn't save more and was forced to seal off most of the Deep Roads.
The dwarves however completely and utterly dismiss any notion of the darkspawn originating on the surface since all their records going back thousands of years say that the darkspawn came from below even their lowest thaigs.
At present, there is only one place known in the games and lore that is below even the Deep Roads and the dwarven empire. The Primeval Thaig.
Is it concrete proof? No. But it is enough to make it clear that there is far more to the origin of darkspawn than the Chant of Light, or even Corypheus would have us believe. There are too many unanswered questions.
Like, if the Corypheus and the other magisters truly were the first darkspawn, how on earth would they know how to make broodmothers? How would they know where to find the Old Gods since, as Awakened Darkspawn like the Architect and as Corypheus confirms in Legacy, they can't hear the song. Or how they somehow managed to sneak into the deep roads at the height of the dwarven empire, go through patrolled tunnels, and build an army without the dwarves ever noticing? Also, since Corypheus survived the ages, sealed by the Grey Wardens, what happened to the other magisters? Were they killed in the blight, were they sealed as well, were they captured by the dwarves, or something else?
Well before you go calling me a liar.
World of Thedas. Page 28. Timeline. First blight begins -395 ancient. Darkspawn attack deep roads and spread to fringes of the imperium -380 ancient.
Well before you go calling me a liar.
World of Thedas. Page 28. Timeline. First blight begins -395 ancient. Darkspawn attack deep roads and spread to fringes of the imperium -380 ancient.
I didn't mean to call you a liar, merely mistaken. There's a difference If that's how you took it, then I apologize.
However, I did forget that part, but it doesn't change the fact that they lost most of their empire well before the surface even knew there was a blight. Nor does World of Thedas answer any of the questions I asked.
I didn't mean to call you a liar, merely mistaken. There's a difference If that's how you took it, then I apologize.
However, I did forget that part, but it doesn't change the fact that they lost most of their empire well before the surface even knew there was a blight. Nor does World of Thedas answer any of the questions I asked.
No offense taken.
WoT states that the first darkspawn found the old god dumat before attacking the deep roads.
Agreed that most of the deep roads fell before the creatures came back to the surface, but that doesn't mean the dwarves are anymore right about where the darkspawn came from than the chantry. If the 1st darkspawn knew where dumat was, it wouldn't be that hard to find him than attack the deep roads. Once the DS had a arch demon, the dwarves and everyone else were screwed as fighting the darkspawn more or less just fed their numbers and without a GW you couldn't defeat the AD.
My main point was the reference to the Dwarves being used as evidence the blight wasn't caused by magic. What I said again was true, the dwarves don't know where they came from, and they don't know that the Chantry tale isn't true, however, it would appear the first sighting of Darkspawn on the surface according to WoT predated them being in the roads.
I've only seen the first part of the first chapter available. So Gaspard wants to utilize the warring factions to the benefit of the empire, while Celene wants to put them both down?
Gaspard, yes, he does want that. Celene prefers peace, bu also advises Leliana to tell the Divine to hurry up, because she can't control her nobles for much longer. Although she doesn't want to be known in history as the "Mad Empress" who marched "against her own people" (declaring war against templars and mages is not like declaring war to a foreign nation), in the end she will do what is best for the Empire.
When you stop to think about it, Gaspard is right. Wars unite people. Why does the tension between mages and templars rise now? Because there hasn't been a big war in a long time. During the Blights and the Qunari Wars mages, templars and mundanes were united against a common foe. But the Qunari Wars ended over 100 years ago, there has been no Blight in centuries and when the Fifth starts those two Wardens finish it in a year. Had DA:O not happened, Orlais would be now in war against the darkspawn and mages and templars would have more pressing matters to think about.
No offense taken.
WoT states that the first darkspawn found the old god dumat before attacking the deep roads.
Agreed that most of the deep roads fell before the creatures came back to the surface, but that doesn't mean the dwarves are anymore right about where the darkspawn came from than the chantry. If the 1st darkspawn knew where dumat was, it wouldn't be that hard to find him than attack the deep roads. Once the DS had a arch demon, the dwarves and everyone else were screwed as fighting the darkspawn more or less just fed their numbers and without a GW you couldn't defeat the AD.
My main point was the reference to the Dwarves being used as evidence the blight wasn't caused by magic. What I said again was true, the dwarves don't know where they came from, and they don't know that the Chantry tale isn't true, however, it would appear the first sighting of Darkspawn on the surface according to WoT predated them being in the roads.
Some Dwarves share the Tevinter chantry's version, which is The Old Gods are solely responsible for blights not mages.
No offense taken.
WoT states that the first darkspawn found the old god dumat before attacking the deep roads.
Agreed that most of the deep roads fell before the creatures came back to the surface, but that doesn't mean the dwarves are anymore right about where the darkspawn came from than the chantry. If the 1st darkspawn knew where dumat was, it wouldn't be that hard to find him than attack the deep roads. Once the DS had a arch demon, the dwarves and everyone else were screwed as fighting the darkspawn more or less just fed their numbers and without a GW you couldn't defeat the AD.
My main point was the reference to the Dwarves being used as evidence the blight wasn't caused by magic. What I said again was true, the dwarves don't know where they came from, and they don't know that the Chantry tale isn't true, however, it would appear the first sighting of Darkspawn on the surface according to WoT predated them being in the roads.
If the first darkspawn were the magisters, how would they know where to look though? They can't hear the song that all other darkspawn can. How would they build an army, since they wouldn't know how to make broodmothers? And how could they search the whole of the deep roads without the dwarves ever noticing?
Some Dwarves share the Tevinter chantry's version, which is The Old Gods are solely responsible for blights not mages.
And those dwarves grew up on the surface like Varic or Burkel.
Gaspard, yes, he does want that. Celene prefers peace, bu also advises Leliana to tell the Divine to hurry up, because she can't control her nobles for much longer. Although she doesn't want to be known in history as the "Mad Empress" who marched "against her own people" (declaring war against templars and mages is not like declaring war to a foreign nation), in the end she will do what is best for the Empire.
When you stop to think about it, Gaspard is right. Wars unite people. Why does the tension between mages and templars rise now? Because there hasn't been a big war in a long time. During the Blights and the Qunari Wars mages, templars and mundanes were united against a common foe. But the Qunari Wars ended over 100 years ago, there has been no Blight in centuries and when the Fifth starts those two Wardens finish it in a year. Had DA:O not happened, Orlais would be now in war against the darkspawn and mages and templars would have more pressing matters to think about.
Gaspard wants to declare war on ferelden to make the mages and templars come back to peace. This part of the book predates asunder and is just between DA2 and Asunder. The mages and templars haven't had their falling out, it is mostly large numbers of apostates fleeing the circles I believe. Gaspard hasn't started his rebellion yet, so the events of Asunder haven't all occurred by what you read in the preview.
If the first darkspawn were the magisters, how would they know where to look though? They can't hear the song that all other darkspawn can. How would they build an army, since they wouldn't know how to make broodmothers? And how could they search the whole of the deep roads without the dwarves ever noticing?
1 First Darkspawn--Well Corpheus could hear the voice of Dumat. Prior to him being sealed up and Dumat being killed, The taint could corrupt, biology cold take over, magic we don't know but those are all possible answers.
2. These were some of the most powerful mages to ever live, why would they need to search the deep roads? They would probably be able to figure it out where dumat was and go uncover him.
Gaspard wants to declare war on ferelden to make the mages and templars come back to peace. This part of the book predates asunder and is just between DA2 and Asunder. The mages and templars haven't had their falling out, it is mostly large numbers of apostates fleeing the circles I believe. Gaspard hasn't started his rebellion yet, so the events of Asunder haven't all occurred by what you read in the preview.
Exactly. Orlesian nobles are not stupid and both Gaspard and Celene suspect mages and templars are going to do something very stupid before a year. Gaspard's solution is to declare a nice war and make Orlais strong again, giving a good opportunity for mages and templars to serve the country instead of killing each other. Celene would prefer to give the Divine a chance to mend things, giving cue to the ball that marks the beginning of Asunder. Of course, all of this is just another part of The Game for them, a game for the Orlesian throne.
But we know how it's going to end. The ball will be suspended because of the assassination attempt, Gaspard will rebel, the elves will rebel, the mages and templars will break from the Chantry and everything will go to hell.
If the first darkspawn were the magisters, how would they know where to look though? They can't hear the song that all other darkspawn can. How would they build an army, since they wouldn't know how to make broodmothers? And how could they search the whole of the deep roads without the dwarves ever noticing?
If Dumat lured original magisters to enter the Golden City, as you could assume from Corypheus' speech, why wouldn't he guide them afterwards to free him? Can't we also assume, that some of those magisters were females?
Exactly. Orlesian nobles are not stupid and both Gaspard and Celene suspect mages and templars are going to do something very stupid before a year. Gaspard's solution is to declare a nice war and make Orlais strong again, giving a good opportunity for mages and templars to serve the country instead of killing each other. Celene would prefer to give the Divine a chance to mend things, giving cue to the ball that marks the beginning of Asunder. Of course, all of this is just another part of The Game for them, a game for the Orlesian throne.
But we know how it's going to end. The ball will be suspended because of the assassination attempt, Gaspard will rebel, the elves will rebel, the mages and templars will break from the Chantry and everything will go to hell.
Yes, but the response you were agreeing with was thinking the war had already started and Gaspard wants to use the two sides against each other, not declare war on Ferelden to give them a common enemy.
And again, though it looks that way, do we actually know that the elves truly rebel or is this just a rumor of Gaspards. We know the elves--and it doesn't appear to include the Dalish from Felassan's comments-play an important role in MoTE, but we don't know yet that it is open rebellion.
Mass usage of hyperbole is far worse then other grammatical usages you might employ in it's stead
Cullen didn't even participate in the Annulment, He was with Meredith the entire time and they didn't even draw their blades until Orsino went Harvester.
In fact, if you side with the mages the first person he draws his blade on Meredith.
If Dumat lured original magisters to enter the Golden City, as you could assume from Corypheus' speech, why wouldn't he guide them afterwards to free him? Can't we also assume, that some of those magisters were females?
This is why the Tevinter chantry is more believable than Orlais when it says Old Gods are responsible for blights not mages. Either old gods did something or something happened to them and they lured the mages into it. I mean the Magisters always listened to old gods why would it be different for them this time?
1 First Darkspawn--Well Corpheus could hear the voice of Dumat. Prior to him being sealed up and Dumat being killed, The taint could corrupt, biology cold take over, magic we don't know but those are all possible answers.
2. These were some of the most powerful mages to ever live, why would they need to search the deep roads? They would probably be able to figure it out where dumat was and go uncover him.
1. If he could hear the voice of Dumat before he was sealed and Dumat killed, why then can he not hear the voice of the two remaining archdemons? Five blights have come and gone, so there are at least two old gods, and thus, at least, two more blights.
2. And to uncover him they would need to pass through the deep roads and the magically resistant dwarven empire's patrols.
The dwarves have no reason to specifically doubt anything in the Chantry account. They flat out admit they have no idea where the darkspawn came from. Their persecptive is confined to when and where they first encountered them. The history of Orzammar codex entries seem to indicate that the darkspawn didn't turn into the empire devouring horde that annihilated entire kingdoms until after they found Dumat. Caradin's golems came right in the middle of the First Blight, and at the time the codex entry says the dwarves were losing the war "slowly." It wasn't actually until centuries after the Battle of the Silent Plains that Orzammar was forced to close off the rest of the deep roads.
Not only that, but Caradin's journal actually blames the humans for unleashing the darkspawn.
If Dumat lured original magisters to enter the Golden City, as you could assume from Corypheus' speech, why wouldn't he guide them afterwards to free him? Can't we also assume, that some of those magisters were females?
Because Corypheus is concerned at the silence and there are still two more old gods.
EDIT: And if there were female magisters, wouldn't they simply become awakened broodmothers like the mother in Awakening? Or would they actually give birth to darkspawn?
Err...this is a mental image I'm sure I don't want to have, but the knowledge is actually essential in determining if that's how darkspawn really came about compared to the magisters simply being the first awakened darkspawn...
Modifié par dragonflight288, 17 mars 2014 - 08:19 .
Retour en haut
