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[The Elder King]

by that logic Andraste was a demon spawn.

She didn't force the Alammari tribes in choosing between fighting for her or die.

[Lulupab]

She didn't force the Alammari tribes in choosing between fighting for her or die.

 

She did the slaves. She put all slaves in danger. They had to fight or die. Because Tevinter most likely took precautions and acted much harsher towards slaves after what she started. Exactly like Anders.

[The Elder King]

She did the slaves. She put all slaves in danger. They had to fight or die. Because Tevinter most likely took precautions and acted much harsher towards slaves after what she started. Exactly like Anders.

That's just your assumption.
And it's not comparable at all with the situation of Kirkwall, since Anders' action indeed Lead to harsher treatment for mages, but after DA2. And the mages in the Circles after DA2 they weren't put in a fight-or-die situation. I was specifically talking about the mages in Kirkwall, who had absolutely no choice in the matter.
And the point is that Andraste had support over her action. Anders had none. He acted alone.

[Lulupab]

That's just your assumption.
And it's not comparable at all with the situation of Kirkwall, since Anders' action indeed Lead to harsher treatment for mages, but after DA2. And the mages in the Circles after DA2 they weren't put in a fight-or-die situation. I was specifically talking about the mages in Kirkwall, who had absolutely no choice in the matter.
And the point is that Andraste had support over her action. Anders had none. He acted alone.

 

And this is based on your assumption that Anders knew Elthina wouldn't leave. You assume he also knew Meredith and templars beside her would ignore an abomination with glowing eyes, shattered body and changed voice declaring war on Templars in front of them and go straight for all the circle. Even you should realize how untrue that assumption is. Most importantly we know it was Justice who planned it (in Rivalry path) not Anders and I doubt Justice knew all this. I doubt he cared to know.

 

My assumptions is quite safe and true as when slaves revolt naturally the slaver becomes harsh and before Andraste the tribes were already fighting the Tevinter so I was not even talking about the tribes but mainly about the slaves

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And this is based on your assumption that Anders knew Elthina wouldn't leave. You assume he also knew Meredith and templars beside her would ignore an abomination with glowing eyes, shattered body and changed voice declaring war on Templars in front of them and go straight for all the circle. Even you should realize how untrue that assumption is. Most importantly we know it was Justice who planned it (in Rivalry path) not Anders and I doubt Justice knew all this. I doubt he cared to know.

 

My assumptions is quite safe and true as when slaves revolt naturally the slaver becomes harsh and before Andraste the tribes were already fighting the Tevinter so I was not even talking about the tribes but mainly about the slaves

You mean the same Meredith who everyone knew was paranoid and was already aching to enact the RoA but couldn't because Elthina wouldn't allow it. The same Elthina whom if killed would no longer be in Meredith's way and give her the authority to declare one?

[AresKeith]

And this is based on your assumption that Anders knew Elthina wouldn't leave. You assume he also knew Meredith and templars beside her would ignore an abomination with glowing eyes, shattered body and changed voice declaring war on Templars in front of them and go straight for all the circle. Even you should realize how untrue that assumption is. Most importantly we know it was Justice who planned it (in Rivalry path) not Anders and I doubt Justice knew all this. I doubt he cared to know.

 

Anders knew exactly what would happen with his actions

[Lulupab]

Anders Justice knew exactly what would happen with his actions

 

Fixed. In rivalry path we find out it was Justice who planned it.

 

That said Based on what you are claiming such a thing exactly? 

[Master Warder Z_]

Fixed. In rivalry path we find out it was Justice who planned it.

 

That said Based on what you are claiming such a thing exactly? 

 

He did directly state he removed the ability to compromise because there "wasn't a compromise.

 

Aka he had a fair notion of what exactly would go down if he removed the Grand Cleric from the equation.

[SeekerOfLight]

Its the failure of English language to be honest. There is a huge difference between "being proud" and having pride or better to say Hubris. This failure was so clear when bible was translated from Latin to English.

This is english we're speaking right. If a word doesn't have two or more meanings its just not trying hard enough.   

[Dean_the_Young]

Considering the spirits and demons refer to themselves as spirits and demons might be an indication that there is a difference.  The demon who possessed Pharamond calls Wynne's spirit a spirit, and vice versa.  The Wynne part may be from wynne, but the demon possessing Pharamond doesn't seem to be affected by Pharamond at all.  I just think it is trivializing to say that there is no difference between them, when one is basically a hostile take over of another being and the other is entirely cooperative.  Justice is a bit of a different story considering he no longer resides in the fade, but we don't know to what degree that is.

 

Except they aren't entirely cooperative or entirely a hostile takeover: demons can be invited and synergized with, and spirits can struggle for dominance with their host.

 

Pharamond and Wynn are both Andrastians, which is relevant: just as Justice was channeled through Ander's perception, so could they be influenced by their hosts. It would be more relevant to how an abomination of a non-Andrastian viewpoint (one that doesn't even distinguish between spirits and demons, but lumps them into one category) adresses itself.

 

Except even then, spirits (demons and spirits both) are not particularly self-aware or self-critical as we would understand them. They do not understand basic concepts as we understand them, lack analystical perspective on themselves and each other, and are self-admittedly ignorant about both their nature and origin.

 

When it comes to understanding demons and spirits, not even the fade beings themselves are authoritative by nature. There's so much they don't understand, they truly do lack an objective viewpoint on themselves.

 

 

 

[SeekerOfLight]

He did directly state he removed the ability to compromise because there "wasn't a compromise.

 

Aka he had a fair notion of what exactly would go down if he removed the Grand Cleric from the equation.

I agree with this. The ends don't justify the means, the means justify the ends. No one has the right to sacrifice other people's lives for their own beliefs.

[Lulupab]

Except they aren't entirely cooperative or entirely a hostile takeover: demons can be invited and synergized with, and spirits can struggle for dominance with their host.

 

Pharamond and Wynn are both Andrastians, which is relevant: just as Justice was channeled through Ander's perception, so could they be influenced by their hosts. It would be more relevant to how an abomination of a non-Andrastian viewpoint (one that doesn't even distinguish between spirits and demons, but lumps them into one category) adresses itself.

 

Except even then, spirits (demons and spirits both) are not particularly self-aware or self-critical as we would understand them. They do not understand basic concepts as we understand them, lack analystical perspective on themselves and each other, and are self-admittedly ignorant about both their nature and origin.

 

When it comes to understanding demons and spirits, not even the fade beings themselves are authoritative by nature. There's so much they don't understand, they truly do lack an objective viewpoint on themselves.

 

What you said does make sense but the fact that there is a difference between "Spirits" and "Demons" is undeniable however we do not know the extent of this difference.

 

Justice is not a good example as there are many things about him that are debatable and not proven speculations. Cole however is a good one. Can a spirit officially and completely turn into a demon? I'm not talking about mere corrupted spirits that might be cured if left his host such as Justice, I'm talking about a free spirit that turned into a demon all on his own. If its possible then they are the same if not then they are not the same.

[Dean_the_Young]

By Act 3 I'm calling Vengeance a demon. Vengeance is a negative trait, which demons are based off of. As Justice says in Awakening, "Demons are just spirits perverted by their desires." And in Act 3 they are definitely consumed and perverted by their desire for Vengeance.

 

I'm not sure this is a meaningful distinction for a category. The concept of Justice, after all, is often a mix of mercy but also retribution. It's a matter of perspective, as most moral classifications are.

 

Connor, for example, fell to a desire demon. But the desire he had was a noble one: a desire to save his father. Why would such a desire be considered a negative trait?

 

There's an expression that any virtue without moderation can eventually become a vice. In a similar way, 'negative traits' in moderation can be a boon to character and conduct. The villainous virtues, so to speak.

 

'Demons are bad, Spirits are good' is a moral categorization that makes sense on general effect, but it isn't much of a scientific categorization. We'd need to understand why the demons are bad and spirits are good- but to do so we'd need comparable studies of both. Certainly there are some demonic abominations that are able to slip under the radar (the Countess, and I think the villain of the facebook Dragon Age game), while of the two spirits we know so far one of them has distinctly been bad over time. Now, we do have a lot of history to suggest demons are bad- but is the lopsided ratio because spirits are benign, or just rarer?

 

To understand why this would matter, consider the Rivian witches, willing abominations. It's often assumed they pick spirits- but what if they take a Dalish viewpoint and consider all demons and spirits, well, spirits? Then their track record (which is unclear enough as it is) could be a result of them selectively choosing certain spirits and demons, while also rejecting certain types of both.
 

[Dean_the_Young]

But Justice got corrupted almost instantly.
About the darkspawn abomination, I was more wondering of how strong it might be. I might be wrong, but I recall that someone mentioned that a darkspawn abomination being a horrible thing if it'll ever happen. Maybe it was in the Magi Origin?

 

Instantly?

 

If Justice gives Anders righteous passion, then Anders lashing out violentally wouldn't be the same as Justice being corrupted. Justice's corruption could have come later, over time.

[Master Warder Z_]

Instantly?

 

If Justice gives Anders righteous passion, then Anders lashing out violentally wouldn't be the same as Justice being corrupted. Justice's corruption could have come later, over time.

 

I'd say it slowly progressed through the acts, becoming more and more severe, more and more corrupted until it was basically a Demon.

 

.-. Act 3 Justice was a demon,  Act 1 was still in progress Demon.

[Dean_the_Young]

So people are actually arguing now that some demons don't seek to dominate???

 

 

Sure- and why not? The only demons/abominations we seek seeking to dominate (as a political meaning) are the ones whose aspect involves domination of some sort, or who are involved with people who seek to dominate.

 

What demons (and spirits, if we're honest) really seem to want to do is be themselves. To express their precept and fulfill it. Valor wants to express valor, even if it means killing a mage-warden during their Harrowing. Sloth demons are about various forms of inaction. Justice wants, well, to punish what it sees as wickedness. Faith was interested in and supported Wynn's faith.

 

According to Chantry dogma, the difference between Spirits and Demons is that the demons are more interested in expressing themselves in Thedas (which generally requires possession), while Spirits are more content to stay in the Fade and watch from afar. This is plausible, but not necessarily accurate: we do see demons whose motivation seems to be to experience life and exist in Thedas (such as the zombie Sophia from Warden's Keep, Kitty, the married-templar Desire, the demon in the Abandoned Thaig feeding off rock wraiths, possibly Merrill's demon).

 

For such demons, possession/domination is a means to the end, not the end in and of itself. They aren't out to take over the world, or establish themselves in the vague demonic hierarchies, or political domination: they just need a conduit to live through.
 

[Senya]

Regardless, such demons need to be banished back into the Fade. Or have a sword of mercy shoved into them.

 

Some are to be pitied, of course, but demons always bring harm. Possession itself is a terrible crime.

[Mistic]

Pharamond and Wynn are both Andrastians, which is relevant: just as Justice was channeled through Ander's perception, so could they be influenced by their hosts. It would be more relevant to how an abomination of a non-Andrastian viewpoint (one that doesn't even distinguish between spirits and demons, but lumps them into one category) adresses itself.

 

That's an interesting take on it. Sadly, the best sample for that would be the Rivaini seers, and we won't see them in some time, if at all.

 

Did possessed Marethari say something about demons or spirits? I can't remember the scene well.
 

[Senya]

That's an interesting take on it. Sadly, the best sample for that would be the Rivaini seers, and we won't see them in some time, if at all.

 

Did possessed Marethari say something about demons or spirits? I can't remember the scene well.
 

She mentioned she was its prison before she transformed. Then the Demon kept mocking Merrill as the bane of her Clan. There was also the demon's last appeal to her pride when it was almost beaten by turning back into Marethari and saying the demon was gone. It seemed to me that Marethari was practically obliterated in this instance.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's an interesting take on it. Sadly, the best sample for that would be the Rivaini seers, and we won't see them in some time, if at all.

 

Did possessed Marethari say something about demons or spirits? I can't remember the scene well.
 

 

If you want one further down the rabbit hole- if spirits and demons to view each other as such, they could well have picked up the distinction from the mortals they observed.

 

After all, who created the words 'spirit' and 'demon' as descriptions for the Fade beings?

[Dean_the_Young]

What you said does make sense but the fact that there is a difference between "Spirits" and "Demons" is undeniable however we do not know the extent of this difference.

 

Justice is not a good example as there are many things about him that are debatable and not proven speculations. Cole however is a good one. Can a spirit officially and completely turn into a demon? I'm not talking about mere corrupted spirits that might be cured if left his host such as Justice, I'm talking about a free spirit that turned into a demon all on his own. If its possible then they are the same if not then they are not the same.

 

The difference between spirits and demons is undeniable if we accept tautological arguments. A demon is bad because it is a demon, and we know it is a demon because it is bad. This is great for ideological classification, but not particularly useful for identifying the difference between the two groups, if there actually are two groups in the first place.

 

Otherwise, it's all fair game until we can actually identify what makes a spirit and demon fundamentally different in composition, rather than inclination- and understanding why those inclinations are different could itself resolve the differences. If the two groups have the same capabilities but different motivations/awareness, they would be the same 'species' and just different 'polities'- and identifying why, say, demons are more interested in the real world (if they are more interested in the real world) would be a very relevant distinction.

[The Elder King]

Instantly?
 
If Justice gives Anders righteous passion, then Anders lashing out violentally wouldn't be the same as Justice being corrupted. Justice's corruption could have come later, over time.

I'm talking about the short story Bioware released prior to DA2. Which I wouldn't define as 'lashing violently' and Anders had no control over his actions, so it was Justice.

[Master Warder Z_]

I'm talking about the short story Bioware released prior to DA2. Which I wouldn't define as 'lashing violently' and Anders had no control over his actions, so it was Justice.

 

That thing seriously needs to be declared non canon already ._.

[The Elder King]

That thing seriously needs to be declared non canon already ._.

Why?

[Lulupab]

Why?

 

Because its godawful?

 

Anyhow in the story its pretty much self defense really. They were going to kill Anders in cold blood so he killed them first.