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[The Elder King]

As far as I remember Lambert went on a killing spree when the college suggested the vote to separate the Circle from the Chantry. Before the vote could be taken, the meeting was disrupted by Lord Seeker Lambert, who on presenting news that Pharamond had been murdered and ordered his Templars to attack. There is no reasoning with such people, the only solution is rebellion. They bludgeon mages at the very idea, least of all seeing it happen.

He actually demanded the stop of the Reunion and the arrest of Rhys. He didn't order his templars to attack at first. He ordered the attack after the mage refused to disband and to give Rhys.

[Aimi]

Also do not compare what Anders did with examples of social reforms in the past century cause there is no analogy. Rather consider any instances of actual social reform taking place peacefully in the Dark Ages.

 

The 'Dark Ages' is a historiographical concept that has been deprecated. It is pejorative, inaccurate, and nondescriptive. Academic historians do not tend to use it.

 

But if you're looking for an example of positive social change, largely peaceful, from the medieval era, you could do worse than to look at the emancipation of the peasantry and the end of slavery, both developments that occurred without major violence in post-Roman Western Europe.

 

Naturally, both of those trends were reversed later; peasants were famously 'bound' again in the ninth and tenth centuries, and forms of slavery emerged again when Western European states began to conquer overseas empires. The trends were also not mirrored in Eastern Europe; much like the Tevinter Imperium of Thedas, the Byzantine Empire was the world's clearing-house for slaves during the same period that slavery had ceased to exist in the West. (Unlike Tevinter, the Byzantines mostly were slave brokers to the Muslim world, and did not employ slave labor themselves in large quantities. But let that go.)

 

That just goes to show that there is no such thing as an end to history.

[Lulupab]

The 'Dark Ages' is a historiographical concept that has been deprecated. It is pejorative, inaccurate, and nondescriptive. Academic historians do not tend to use it.

 

But if you're looking for an example of positive social change, largely peaceful, from the medieval era, you could do worse than to look at the emancipation of the peasantry and the end of slavery, both developments that occurred without major violence in post-Roman Western Europe.

 

Naturally, both of those trends were reversed later; peasants were famously 'bound' again in the ninth and tenth centuries, and forms of slavery emerged again when Western European states began to conquer overseas empires. The trends were also not mirrored in Eastern Europe; much like the Tevinter Imperium of Thedas, the Byzantine Empire was the world's clearing-house for slaves during the same period that slavery had ceased to exist in the West. (Unlike Tevinter, the Byzantines mostly were slave brokers to the Muslim world, and did not employ slave labor themselves in large quantities. But let that go.)

 

That just goes to show that there is no such thing as an end to history.

 

You just destroyed a historical character named Spartacus who did employ violence to free the slaves. "No major violence" my arse. During medieval ages and before that, namely dark ages, "terrorism" was a quite daily thing. Bombs were not invented sure but there is almost no sign of a drastic change without drastic measures. Violence was encouraged and accepted.

[dragonflight288]

I'm sure there are many felons who would agree.

 

With freedom comes responsibility and accountability. I'm sure felons would agree, but if they used their freedom to commit crimes, they are punished by losing that freedom. 

 

If freedom is taken away, you are either a.) punishing people not for what they did but for what they are, or b.) taking away their 'right' to be held accountable. 

 

I say b, because quite frankly, in any system where people don't have rights, that ultimately means that the people making the decisions and the ones with the power are also the ones who hold majority accountability AND responsibility. 

[TK514]

With freedom comes responsibility and accountability. I'm sure felons would agree, but if they used their freedom to commit crimes, they are punished by losing that freedom. 
 
If freedom is taken away, you are either a.) punishing people not for what they did but for what they are, or b.) taking away their 'right' to be held accountable. 
 
I say b, because quite frankly, in any system where people don't have rights, that ultimately means that the people making the decisions and the ones with the power are also the ones who hold majority accountability AND responsibility.

Very nice. Unfortunately, it doesn't have anything to do with what I was responding to, or even the point of my response.

Freedom is not a universal good. There are times when a lack of freedom is far preferable.

[The Elder King]

You just destroyed a historical character named Spartacus who did employ violence to free the slaves. "No major violence" my arse. During medieval ages and before that, namely dark ages, "terrorism" was a quite daily thing. Bombs were not invented sure but there is almost no sign of a drastic change without drastic measures. Violence was encouraged and accepted.

I never read that the Roman times can be defined as 'dark age'.

[Lulupab]

I never read that the Roman times can be defined as 'dark age'.

 

Roman empire starts from dark age and extends to medieval age. It was an interesting country in general, such as openly allowing homosexuality even same sex marriage while also being christian. Many historians think Europe went backwards for many ages after Roman Empire was gone, coming to conclusion that religion kept people from growing culturally or otherwise.

[The Elder King]

Roman empire starts from dark age and extends to medieval age. It was an interesting country in general, such as openly allowing homosexuality even same sex marriage while also being christian. Many historians think Europe went backwards for many ages after Roman Empire was gone, coming to conclusion that religion kept people from growing culturally or otherwise.

Sorry, but from what I know the Dark age generally refers to the period after the decline/fall of the Western Roman Empire. I never read that the Roman Empire started during the Dark age, or that the Dark Age started before the fifth century after Christ. Do you actual source to back this claim?
Furthermore, Spartacus lived before he formation of the Roman Empire. His slave rebellion happened during the Roman Republic era.

[Hellion Rex]

In case you guys didn't see:

 

New DA book in August?

 

http://www.amazon.co...0680_em_1p_5_im

[TK514]

Sorry, but from what I know the Dark age generally refers to the period after the decline/fall of the Western Roman Empire. I never read that the Roman Empire started during the Dark age, or that the Dark Age started before the fight century after Christ. Do you actual source to back this claim?
Furthermore, Spartacus lived before he formation of the Roman Empire. His slave rebellion happened during the Roman Republic era.

The reason you've never read that the Dark Ages started before the fall of the Western Roman empire is because that is the event that starts the Dark Ages. Lulu lab is mistaken.

[dragonflight288]

Very nice. Unfortunately, it doesn't have anything to do with what I was responding to, or even the point of my response.

Freedom is not a universal good. There are times when a lack of freedom is far preferable.

 

Your post was on how felons would agree that freedom is a good thing, which in turn was a response to how freedom itself is in itself a good thing. 

 

And yes, there are times when lack of freedom is good, but it only applies to those who have shown through their actions and choices they made WHILE they had their freedom that they deserve to have it taken away from them. 

[dragonflight288]

Roman empire starts from dark age and extends to medieval age. It was an interesting country in general, such as openly allowing homosexuality even same sex marriage while also being christian. Many historians think Europe went backwards for many ages after Roman Empire was gone, coming to conclusion that religion kept people from growing culturally or otherwise.

 

I read that the fall of the Roman Empire started the dark ages, and the Renaissance ended it. 

[TK514]

In case you guys didn't see:
 
New DA book in August?
 
http://www.amazon.co...0680_em_1p_5_im

Oh, good. DA needed its single 'more white than black' organization dragged through the dirt. We can't have people thinking there might be actual heroes in these stories.

[wcholcombe]

Templars killed many enchanters and disbanded the college of Enchanters. Wynne would have succeeded if these events didn't happen.

9/11 was results of war not freedom being taken away.

Also do not compare what Anders did with examples of social reforms in the past century cause there is no analogy. Rather consider any instances of actual social reform taking place peacefully in the Dark Ages.

I didn't compare it to social reforms, it would be completely out of context. There was no more a war going on when 9/11 occurred then there was when Anders acted out or the mages rebelled. I wasn't drawing a comparison mind you just pointing out the idiocy of the spliatic definitions of good and evil you were using. Especially when applied to a game would the designers have intentionally designed to be morally ambiguous with multiple perspectives of right/wrong or good/evil. They have stated that as their intent.

[Lulupab]

Sorry, but from what I know the Dark age generally refers to the period after the decline/fall of the Western Roman Empire. I never read that the Roman Empire started during the Dark age, or that the Dark Age started before the fight century after Christ. Do you actual source to back this claim?
Furthermore, Spartacus lived before he formation of the Roman Empire. His slave rebellion happened during the Roman Republic era.

 

Forgive me as I confused dark ages with something else. Roman empire starts from before that. Work has really take a toll on me today...

 

Regardless I should have pointed out old ages and costumes that covered many ages throughout Europe. Before introduction to any major technology such as steam machine. This also covers spartacus.

[Hellion Rex]

Oh, good. DA needed its single 'more white than black' organization dragged through the dirt. We can't have people thinking there might be actual heroes in these stories.

My, my, Governor Tarkin. Be that sarcasm I hear in your voice?

[Xilizhra]

Where was the shift implied in DAO, exactly?

With some mages in the mage origin, and the codex entry on the fraternities.

 

 

You can ask him to read you parts of it. What we get is trash, and doesn't actually rebut the points he tries to address.

 

Concern: Magic is dangerous.

Rebuttal: Well why did the Maker let us keep our magic?

Pre-existing answer: The Maker doesn't interfere with anything anymore.

Logical answer: The Maker's inaction is irrelevant to the concern that magic is dangerous.

The Maker did, however, interfere a fair bit in Andraste's war against the Imperium, if you believe the Chantry, doing things like blighting their crops.

[Lulupab]

I didn't compare it to social reforms, it would be completely out of context. There was no more a war going on when 9/11 occurred then there was when Anders acted out or the mages rebelled. I wasn't drawing a comparison mind you just pointing out the idiocy of the spliatic definitions of good and evil you were using. Especially when applied to a game would the designers have intentionally designed to be morally ambiguous with multiple perspectives of right/wrong or good/evil. They have stated that as their intent.

 

Meredith already sent for Annulment before Anders did anything. Do not forget that. 

[Hellion Rex]

At least we can hear more about what in the world the Grey Wardens have been messing with.

[The Elder King]

At least we can hear more about what in the world the Grey Wardens have been messing with.

And then we'll have to fix their mess.
I'm not surprised on this turn of events, based on the premise of DAI.

[TK514]

Your post was on how felons would agree that freedom is a good thing, which in turn was a response to how freedom itself is in itself a good thing. 
 
And yes, there are times when lack of freedom is good, but it only applies to those who have shown through their actions and choices they made WHILE they had their freedom that they deserve to have it taken away from them.

Carriers of an incurable contagion of unknown vector. What choices did they make that would meet your criteria?
People who are mentally incapable of caring for themselves, and as such are confined to strictly controlled facilities. Where is their choice?

In both cases, freedom is the worse choice.

There are plenty of other examples. Freedom is not a universal good, nor is it even universally desirable.

[wcholcombe]

Oh, good. DA needed its single 'more white than black' organization dragged through the dirt. We can't have people thinking there might be actual heroes in these stories.

While I don't feel the need for a new darker grey wardens, I am interested in anything involving griffons.

[The Elder King]

With some mages in the mage origin, and the codex entry on the fraternities.
 
 

The Maker did, however, interfere a fair bit in Andraste's war against the Imperium, if you believe the Chantry, doing things like blighting their crops.

I read the codex. It definitely implies that Aequitarians might change their support, though I don't recall one Aequitarian that shows support of Libertarians in DAO. I guess we'll have to wait and see DAI portrayes different views of the former fraternities
I recall that the person that posted the codex mentioned Vivienne's possible affiliation. I mantain the idea that she's a Lucrosian.

[wcholcombe]

Meredith already sent for Annulment before Anders did anything. Do not forget that.

What exactly does Meredith/anders have to do with anything on my post?

My post was meaning the developers have said the concept of good/evil from DND doesn't fit with the world of DA because they intentionally make it where multiple sides can be viewed as good/evil. Like life it is a social construct and based on your own experiences in game.

[Xilizhra]

Carriers of an incurable contagion of unknown vector. What choices did they make that would meet your criteria?
People who are mentally incapable of caring for themselves, and as such are confined to strictly controlled facilities. Where is their choice?

In both cases, freedom is the worse choice.

There are plenty of other examples. Freedom is not a universal good, nor is it even universally desirable.

In such cases, the issue is protection. Certainly, those who are unusually vulnerable should be protected with such means as are required for the duration of their vulnerability, but not everything the Circle does is needed to keep its charges safe from demons.

 

I read the codex. It definitely implies that Aequitarians might change their support, though I don't recall one Aequitarian that shows support of Libertarians in DAO. I guess we'll have to wait and see DAI portrayes different views of the former fraternities
I recall that the person that posted the codex mentioned Vivienne's possible affiliation. I mantain the idea that she's a Lucrosian.

We also don't ever get one Aequitarian supporting the Loyalists; both Irving and Wynne have wanted reforms to the Circle that the Loyalists have shown no signs of desiring. Orsino is also implied to be an Aequitarian who comes to support mage freedom, and Bethany does as well in the end (unless you think she was a Libertarian even before then).