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[Cat Lance]

Less than humans? since when less than humans have better conditions than majority of humans?
 
Most mages become blood mages not because circle but because humans are flawed see tevinter.

Tevinter is one place, which as, I believe Fenris points out, also has a self perpetuating system.

Mages are people. That means that some are good, some are bad, some will mean well but make bad choices, others will do the right thing for the wrong reasons. And on and on. However, the choice is not Tranquility or Tevinter. That's a straw man argument.

The system needs revision. Needs mages to be more a part of their own policing and governance. Templars need a modified role that assists that as opposed to ruling over a Circle.

[Aimi]

You just destroyed a historical character named Spartacus who did employ violence to free the slaves. "No major violence" my arse. During medieval ages and before that, namely dark ages, "terrorism" was a quite daily thing. Bombs were not invented sure but there is almost no sign of a drastic change without drastic measures. Violence was encouraged and accepted.

 

Spartacus participated in a single slave rebellion that went nowhere and predated the effective abolition of slavery in the West by several centuries. He is irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Slavery did not cease to exist because of slave rebellions, which historically have almost always failed (with the sole exception being Haiti). It ceased to exist in the early medieval era chiefly because of moral pressure exerted by Christianity, although other factors were concerned. There was no big war to cause the change; there were no terror campaigns mounted by rebellious slaves.

 

Obviously, early medieval Europe was a violent place. Most of that violence, however, was not related to slavery, and when it did occur, that violence was not connected to the end of slavery.

 

Sorry, but from what I know the Dark age generally refers to the period after the decline/fall of the Western Roman Empire. I never read that the Roman Empire started during the Dark age, or that the Dark Age started before the fifth century after Christ. Do you actual source to back this claim?
Furthermore, Spartacus lived before he formation of the Roman Empire. His slave rebellion happened during the Roman Republic era.

 

Yes, that is the original use of the 'Dark Ages' trope: from the fall of the West in 476 to some nebulous point a few centuries later.

 

It has a large number of historiographical problems, and so while it is still in use by people who don't read academic history, historians in general don't think that it's a good category and tend to avoid it.

 

I read that the fall of the Roman Empire started the dark ages, and the Renaissance ended it. 

 

That's another reason that historians don't like the term 'Dark Ages'. Its first use was by Renaissance intellectuals, enamored of the tremendous cultural and intellectual achievements of their time, who wanted to paint the preceding centuries as an era of darkness to make their own time seem even better. Call it historiographical chiaroscuro: adding Dark Ages made the bright light of the Renaissance stand out even more.

 

It was an entirely self-serving way to look at things for those Renaissance intellectuals and, again, is not a very good descriptor of the way things actually worked during the period in question.

 

With some mages in the mage origin, and the codex entry on the fraternities.

 

 

The Maker did, however, interfere a fair bit in Andraste's war against the Imperium, if you believe the Chantry, doing things like blighting their crops.

 

Tevinter lost the Mandate of Heaven.

 

And I see no problem with a magocracy through the same time period lens.

 

I can see plenty of potential problems with a magocracy. It's possible that none of them, necessarily, have to exist.

 

If Thedosian magocracies were ruled by the people on the BioWare forums who advocate in favor of them, however, I imagine that they'd be pretty awful places for non-mages to live. All this talk of 'mundanes' makes me think of Untermenschen and "look out here comes the master race".

[TheKomandorShepard]

That's not really a flaw. 

 

well tell that everyone in the world outside mages (and very few mages that have power there) and well blights and other disasters sponsored by mages. 

 

 

Tevinter is one place, which as, I believe Fenris points out, also has a self perpetuating system.

Mages are people. That means that some are good, some are bad, some will mean well but make bad choices, others will do the right thing for the wrong reasons. And on and on. However, the choice is not Tranquility or Tevinter. That's a straw man argument.

The system needs revision. Needs mages to be more a part of their own policing and governance. Templars need a modified role that assists that as opposed to ruling over a Circle.

 

There is no such good peoples only who pretend such to be appreciated peoples have to pretend all of the time when they are in society plaing different person.If person gets power to point when person can do what that person likes such person don't have pretend nice person will stop it and got drunk with power pretty much as i said tevinter empire sums up that when almost every magister (99 % ) is insane evil dog kicker.

 

And even if good peoples existed doesn't change fact that demon don't care about morality (that tend go down fast with power) so good or evil doesn't matter you can still end as abomnation.  

 

Not rly circles proven that it doesn't work when it comes about providing safety despite its restrictions why because mages still spread destruction and disasters so system isn't too harsh system is too soft and again tevinter. 

[Xilizhra]

Slavery did not cease to exist because of slave rebellions, which historically have almost always failed (with the sole exception being Haiti). It ceased to exist in the early medieval era chiefly because of moral pressure exerted by Christianity, although other factors were concerned. There was no big war to cause the change; there were no terror campaigns mounted by rebellious slaves.

I have a certain feeling that this is because, at least in part, said slaves never had enough power to achieve freedom themselves; mages might, though help from other nations and the fact that their foes are also renegades will definitely help.

 

Tevinter lost the Mandate of Heaven.

Er, I don't think DA theology is based on Chinese belief systems.

 

I can see plenty of potential problems with a magocracy. It's possible that none of them, necessarily, have to exist.

 

If Thedosian magocracies were ruled by the people on the BioWare forums who advocate in favor of them, however, I imagine that they'd be pretty awful places for non-mages to live. All this talk of 'mundanes' makes me think of Untermenschen and "look out here comes the master race".

Well, I could switch back to "nonmage." However, they're fundamentally not worse than any other aristocratic system.

[Cat Lance]

well tell that everyone in the world outside mages (and very few mages that have power there) and well blights and other disasters sponsored by mages. 
 
 

 
There is no such good peoples only who pretend such to be appreciated peoples have to pretend all of the time when they are in society plaing different person.If person gets power to point when person can do what that person likes such person don't have pretend nice person will stop it and got drunk with power pretty much as i said tevinter empire sums up that when almost every magister (99 % ) is insane evil dog kicker.
 
And even if good peoples existed doesn't change fact that demon don't care about morality (that tend go down fast with power) so good or evil doesn't matter you can still end as abomnation.  
 
Not rly circles proven that it doesn't work when it comes about providing safety despite its restrictions why because mages still spread destruction and disasters so system isn't too harsh system is too soft and again tevinter.

If your argument is that there is no such thing as a good person then shouldn't you be arguing that all mage lines be wiped out? After all, how can we trust the templars not to use the mages to take over?

Power need not corrupt. And mages not being in a position where they constantly fear sneezing wrong lest they be made tranquil is not an automatic conversion to Tevinter's ways.

[Master Warder Z_]

Power need not corrupt. And mages not being in a position where they constantly fear sneezing wrong lest they be made tranquil is not an automatic conversion to Tevinter's ways.

 

How much temptation do you wish to offer a man before he submits to it?

 

Noble intentions do not remove the consequences of lack of vigilance.

[Aimi]

I have a certain feeling that this is because, at least in part, said slaves never had enough power to achieve freedom themselves; mages might, though help from other nations and the fact that their foes are also renegades will definitely help.

 

That's not causative, that's a constraint. What I'm talking about is the fact that this momentous social change in the status of a persecuted group was achieved without the persecuted forcing that change through violence. 

 

Er, I don't think DA theology is based on Chinese belief systems.

 

The Mandate of Heaven thing was a joke. Crop failures and famines have historically been interpreted by populations as the loss of divine favor by somebody, often the ruler. The most well-known example of this was the Mandate; to the Chinese who thought this way, crop failures must indicate that the Emperor had fallen into disfavor, therefore a new dynasty had to be placed on the throne to ensure that the true Son of Heaven ruled.

 

Well, I could switch back to "nonmage." However, they're fundamentally not worse than any other aristocratic system.

 

Fundamentally? No. I completely agree. Like I said before, there's no part of a magocracy that is necessarily worse than the various forms of aristocratic monarchy in Thedas. But we're not talking about fundamentals, we're talking about the situation on the ground. 

[TK514]

If your argument is that there is no such thing as a good person then shouldn't you be arguing that all mage lines be wiped out? After all, how can we trust the templars not to use the mages to take over?
Power need not corrupt. And mages not being in a position where they constantly fear sneezing wrong lest they be made tranquil is not an automatic conversion to Tevinter's ways.

He does advocate the eradication of Mages. Often. So take your coat off, have a seat and enjoy the show.

[Xilizhra]

That's not causative, that's a constraint. What I'm talking about is the fact that this momentous social change in the status of a persecuted group was achieved without the persecuted forcing that change through violence.

Violence was, however, required at other times, most prominently the American Civil War. It's true that changing society's attitudes towards mages to improve the situation cannot be achieved through violence; that's not what I or Fiona has been advocating. This fight is for survival, specifically from the menace of the templars.

 

Fundamentally? No. I completely agree. Like I said before, there's no part of a magocracy that is necessarily worse than the various forms of aristocratic monarchy in Thedas. But we're not talking about fundamentals, we're talking about the situation on the ground.

With the various Andrastian civilizations aside from Orlais and Antiva already disliking slavery, and the former having to keep it quiet, I don't see why implementing a magocracy in most of these nations would duplicate Tevinter's worst feature.

[Master Warder Z_]

Violence was, however, required at other times, most prominently the American Civil War. 

 

Very bad case point and a very poor presidence to rely upon.

 

Case in point being you have many other examples of Slavery being done away with through legislation, not at the point of a rifle.

 

France illegalized Slavery after the Monarchy purchased all in the period between 1831-1835 when both the Greater English islands and France agreed to outlaw slavery through their respective provinces. You could argue you are merely defending a Nation that decided self governance should suffer under the hand of authoritative federal rule. And not overly anything indicative of that situation in so far as "violence" being necessary.

 

To remove the Institution.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If your argument is that there is no such thing as a good person then shouldn't you be arguing that all mage lines be wiped out? After all, how can we trust the templars not to use the mages to take over?

Power need not corrupt. And mages not being in a position where they constantly fear sneezing wrong lest they be made tranquil is not an automatic conversion to Tevinter's ways.

Well actually this is how i want deal with mages but i doubt that templars controling mages to take over the world is real scenario as first templars would need blood magic and they hate them , templars are strongly anti-mages and fanatics.

 

Power always corrupts even if you start as nice guy who want do good it is just slowly going down through knight templar who will chop everyone who person see as evil then everyone who disagree with such person then even more to the bottom .

[Cat Lance]

 

How much temptation do you wish to offer a man before he submits to it?
 
Noble intentions do not remove the consequences of lack of vigilance.

 As previously stated, things need not be black or white. There is middle ground: 

The system needs revision. Needs mages to be more a part of their own policing and governance. Templars need a modified role that assists that as opposed to ruling over a Circle.

 

He does advocate the eradication of Mages. Often. So take your coat off, have a seat and enjoy the show.

Heh. I'm certainly going to have to get used to the new board dynamics! *makes popcorn and fluffs pillow* Care for some? It's extra butter.

[Hellion Rex]

Very bad case point and a very poor presidence to rely upon.

 

Case in point being you have many other examples of Slavery being done away with through legislation, not at the point of a rifle.

 

France illegalized Slavery after the Monarchy purchased all in the period between 1831-1835 when both the Greater English islands and France agreed to outlaw slavery through their respective provinces. You could argue you are merely defending a Nation that decided self governance should suffer under the hand of authoritative federal rule. And not overly anything indicative of that situation in so far as "violence" being necessary.

 

To remove the Institution.

Oh, I can see that this argument is definitely going places.

[Master Warder Z_]

Oh, I can see that this argument is definitely going places.

 

._. what?

 

i can't call out a unfitting historical comparison when i see one?

[Cat Lance]

Well actually this is how i want deal with mages but i doubt that templars controling mages to take over the world is real scenario as first templars would need blood magic and they hate them , templars are strongly anti-mages and fanatics.
 
Power always corrupts even if you start as nice guy who want do good it is just slowly going down through knight templar who will chop everyone who person see as evil then everyone who disagree with such person then even more to the bottom .

So, by your estimation Thedas' only choices are Tevintor or Meredith?

[Master Warder Z_]

  As previously stated, things need not be black or white. There is middle ground: 

 

Indeed and its called the Circle System.

 

Mages get taught, protected and continued existence and Thedas is kept safe from the dangers that inherently lie within their curse.

 

Middle ground.

[TheKomandorShepard]

So, by your estimation Thedas' only choices are Tevintor or Meredith?

 

Nope they have choices many of them like circles sure it hardly works but well it is still choice depending on what do you want... if you want safety when it comes about magic killing mages is only effective way to get that. I for example don't see why i should please few destructive peoples with my safety i value my freedom not others unless it provides me benefit in that case it doesn't. 

[Hellion Rex]

._. what?

 

i can't call out a unfitting historical comparison when i see one?

Nope. You may not.

[Hellion Rex]

Indeed and its called the Circle System.

 

Mages get taught, protected and continued existence and Thedas is kept safe from the dangers that inherently lie within their curse.

 

Middle ground.

Only if the power imbalance is shifted, and we get a Seeker Order that is more strict on the Templars.

[Cat Lance]

Indeed and its called the Circle System.
 
Mages get taught, protected and continued existence and Thedas is kept safe from the dangers that inherently lie within their curse.
 
Middle ground.

  

Nope they have choices many of them like circles sure it hardly works but well it is still choice depending on what do you want... if you want safety when it comes about magic killing mages is only effective way to get that. I for example don't see why i should please few destructive peoples with my safety i value my freedom not others unless it provides me benefit in that case it doesn't.

The issue is that the Circle/Templar system is broken. It creates the very thing it is supposed to prevent, thus my opinion that a revised version of the system is needed

[Master Warder Z_]

The issue is that the Circle/Templar system is broken. It creates the very thing it is supposed to prevent, thus my opinion that a revised version of the system is needed

 

No, The Stupidity and the Ego's of Mages creates the problem.

 

Greed, Want for more, Would they content themselves to live in their gilded cages? The Majority would and did for nearly a thousand years.

 

But then a handful of extremists kick off a war and you expect me to fallcy with the system that kept this very occurrence from not happening until now?

 

No if anything a few certain individuals need to be removed, certain mindsets discouraged and certain groups monitored much closely.

 

If those occurred the circle would endure.

[LobselVith8]

I think the thing is, imagine if you were a mage born into the Circle system. Would you still approve of it?

 

I think a lot of people consider what it must be like for the mages when they object to the Chantry controlled Circles, and just how damaging it can be to the psyche of some when the dominant religion preaches how magic is a curse, and condemns mages for their version of "original sin". Keili and Bethany deal with psychological issues as a result of this, with the former thinking that mages would be cleansed by being killed by the templars, and the latter thinking the Maker wants the mages to be in the Circle Tower.

 

Frankly, it's a toxic environment. There's also the view held by some that the Chantry controlled Circles aren't all that successful, considering how the player consistency reads or witnesses abominations come into being as a direct result of the status quo of the Chantry institutions, from the abomination mentioned in the abomination codex entry to the rebellion in the Circle of Ferelden that was intended to liberate the mages from the tyranny of the templars. There's an argument to be made about whether the status quo is worth keeping when there will always be mages willing to fight against it.

 

As Aldenon the Wise (the co-founder of Ferelden) once said, “A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break - if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!”

[TheKomandorShepard]

  The issue is that the Circle/Templar system is broken. It creates the very thing it is supposed to prevent, thus my opinion that a revised version of the system is needed

 

Not rly i agree it is broken because it sucks when it comes about protecting and preventing part but it still preventing things like damage done by mages and abomnations to certain degree so better have circle that don't have but best option is kill all mages problem solved...

[EmissaryofLies]

No, The Stupidity and the Ego's of Mages creates the problem.
 
Greed, Want for more, Would they content themselves to live in their gilded cages? The Majority would and did for nearly a thousand years.
 
But then a handful of extremists kick off a war and you expect me to fallcy with the system that kept this very occurrence from not happening until now?
 
No if anything a few certain individuals need to be removed, certain mindsets discouraged and certain groups monitored much closely.
 
If those occurred the circle would endure.

 

[Master Warder Z_]

I think a lot of people consider what it must be like for the mages when they object to the Chantry controlled Circles, and just how damaging it can be to the psyche of some when the dominant religion preaches how magic is a curse, and condemns mages for their version of "original sin". Keili and Bethany deal with psychological issues as a result of this, with the former thinking that mages would be cleansed by being killed by the templars, and the latter thinking the Maker wants the mages to be in the Circle Tower.

 

Frankly, it's a toxic environment. There's also the view held by some that the Chantry controlled Circles aren't all that successful, considering how the player consistency reads or witnesses abominations come into being as a direct result of the status quo of the Chantry institutions, from the abomination mentioned in the abomination codex entry to the rebellion in the Circle of Ferelden that was intended to liberate the mages from the tyranny of the templars. There's an argument to be made about whether the status quo is worth keeping when there will always be mages willing to fight against it.

 

As Aldenon the Wise (the co-founder of Ferelden) once said, “A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break - if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!”

 

I think you need reread the exact wording the Chantry uses in their teachings.

 

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.

Foul and corrupt are they

Who have taken His gift

And turned it against His children.

They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.

They shall find no rest in this world

Or beyond.

-Transfigurations 1:2

 

 

Magic is a gift from the Maker but it can also be a curse to those living within the realm of the Mages, The Chantry doesn't encourage the abuse that inherently stems from Magic to follow within Thedas. But Kelly, Bethany and those of similar belief believe in the Chantry that Magic is something to be fearful of, something to be watched and contained. Kelly even contemplates becoming Tranquil, Bethany can agree with the Circle System, these view points are not inherently false or negative. Ultimately the Chantry and the Templars both are wary of Magic, but you can no more deny it exists then the sky. But you can also not deny the dangers that exist within magic as well.

 

And frankly i disagree: Through out visits to the Circle in Origins and witch hunt you encounter lessons being taught, Templars watching and life existing there. Whom are a minority to argue with the disruption of a system that many argue is for the best?  There isn't an argument to made for me, Any one who declares themselves to be a liberator but relies upon the death of the unwilling or innocent to achieve that result is nothing more then a simple murderer. Uldred, Anders, Fiona they aren't the Patron Saints of mage liberation, they are merely self elevated Martyrs that their own kind do their bleeding for them.

 

Yes you quote that line, and i'l say this.

 

For near on a thousand Years, Mages lived and existed in the remote parts of the various Nations, there were a few issues, a few bumps in the road but the world continued to spin, life moved on. No New Imperium, No mass slavery or blood sacrifice, a few revolts, a few outbreaks of abomination but the circles, mages and chantry both endured through it. Now you wish to cast down the very system that made such stability within reach, that made peace for the majority possible, just because of a man who decided himself the arbiter of Mage Kind decided to begin a war?

 

I am happy to say i am not of that mindset.