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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#7501
AresKeith

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No, The Stupidity and the Ego's of Mages creates the problem.

 

Greed, Want for more, Would they content themselves to live in their gilded cages? The Majority would and did for nearly a thousand years.

 

But then a handful of extremists kick off a war and you expect me to fallcy with the system that kept this very occurrence from not happening until now?

 

No if anything a few certain individuals need to be removed, certain mindsets discouraged and certain groups monitored much closely.

 

If those occurred the circle would endure.

 

I disagree, the problem was created from both sides of the party over the years

 

A revised version of the Circle System does need to happen


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#7502
LobselVith8

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Violence was, however, required at other times, most prominently the American Civil War. It's true that changing society's attitudes towards mages to improve the situation cannot be achieved through violence; that's not what I or Fiona has been advocating. This fight is for survival, specifically from the menace of the templars.

 

As well as the slave revolt of Saint Domingue (modern day Haiti) or the rebellion against the dictatorship of Batista in Cuba. Violence is sometimes necessary in order to dislodge tyranny.

 

With the various Andrastian civilizations aside from Orlais and Antiva already disliking slavery, and the former having to keep it quiet, I don't see why implementing a magocracy in most of these nations would duplicate Tevinter's worst feature.

 

Given how many non-Andrastian societies have free mages but don't emulate Tevinter, I don't understand why some people assume that free mages automatically lead to another Imperium. The Dales was a nation where elven mages had positions of authority, but it didn't replicate Tevinter; neither has the kingdom of Rivain, despite seers being counted among the wise women as leaders in traditional communities.



#7503
Cat Lance

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No, The Stupidity and the Ego's of Mages creates the problem.
 
Greed, Want for more, Would they content themselves to live in their gilded cages? The Majority would and did for nearly a thousand years.
 
But then a handful of extremists kick off a war and you expect me to fallcy with the system that kept this very occurrence from not happening until now?
 
No if anything a few certain individuals need to be removed, certain mindsets discouraged and certain groups monitored much closely.
 
If those occurred the circle would endure.

 So, the mental and emotional health of these people is unimportant? As long as they are given food and a roof over their heads, they should be happy while living in constant fear for their lives or worse to continuing to live purposefully broken?

When this could be remedied by adjusting the circle system, it is not condonable. 

Not rly i agree it is broken because it sucks when it comes about protecting and preventing part but it still preventing things like damage done by mages and abomnations to certain degree so better have circle that don't have but best option is kill all mages problem solved...

If you agree the system is flawed, why not repair it? Why a stay the course or obliterate them all stance?  

I think a lot of people consider what it must be like for the mages when they object to the Chantry controlled Circles, and just how damaging it can be to the psyche of some when the dominant religion preaches how magic is a curse, and condemns mages for their version of "original sin". Keili and Bethany deal with psychological issues as a result of this, with the former thinking that mages would be cleansed by being killed by the templars, and the latter thinking the Maker wants the mages to be in the Circle Tower.
 
Frankly, it's a toxic environment. There's also the view held by some that the Chantry controlled Circles aren't all that successful, considering how the player consistency reads or witnesses abominations come into being as a direct result of the status quo of the Chantry institutions, from the abomination mentioned in the abomination codex entry to the rebellion in the Circle of Ferelden that was intended to liberate the mages from the tyranny of the templars. There's an argument to be made about whether the status quo is worth keeping when there will always be mages willing to fight against it.
 
As Aldenon the Wise (the co-founder of Ferelden) once said, “A civilization cannot be civil if it condones the slavery of another. And that is what this Circle is! But by accident of birth, those mages would be free to live, love, and die as they choose. The Circles will break - if it be one year, a decade, a century, or beyond. Tyrants always fall, and the downtrodden always strive for freedom!”

So much this! Thank you for responding to my thought experiment! I didn't think anyone had even read it! lol
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#7504
Master Warder Z_

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The Dales was a nation where elven mages had positions of authority

 

Actually Lob you have given some food for thought with this.

 

Perhaps blood magic domination achieved over their rulers led to that idiotic course to start a war with Orlais.

 

Maker knows that there had be something prompting such a  move.



#7505
Hellion Rex

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Actually Lob you have given some food for thought with this.

 

Perhaps blood magic domination achieved over their rulers led to that idiotic course to start a war with Orlais.

 

Maker knows that there had be something prompting such a  move.

You are seriously stretching, Z.



#7506
TheKomandorShepard

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  If you agree the system is flawed, why not repair it? Why a stay the course or obliterate them all stance? 

 

Well system don't work not because mages are abused (they aren't as they have better conditions that most of peoples in thedas) it doesn't work because mages can't be controled even qunari don't control them one of their mages almost summoned army of demons and destroyed world so protecting world from mages works only whem mage is neutralized..



#7507
Master Warder Z_

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 So, the mental and emotional health of these people is unimportant? As long as they are given food and a roof over their heads, they should be happy while living in constant fear for their lives or worse to continuing to live purposefully broken?

 

Do you think it matters in the course of how you maintain the balance of a continent? It doesn't, Just as it doesn't matter to the rulers of Nations today, they don't care for how random citizens feel about courses of action. They maintain stability, order and discipline.

 

Do not mistake this for Malign intent, it is simply how it must be. Mages are people who must be contained or killed.

 

Not for any fault of their own, it is simply how it must be, the circles exist for that very reason.

 

For them to be among their own kind, safe, secure and well looked after.



#7508
Master Warder Z_

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You are seriously stretching, Z.

 

No more then the notion of having backwoods hedge witches in the remote parts of rivain apparently being comparable to having mages let loose all over Thedas with out any method of control or deterrent.



#7509
Hellion Rex

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No more then the notion of having backwoods hedge witches in the remote parts of rivain apparently being comparable to having mages let loose all over Thedas with out any method of control or deterrent.

Right...have you any proof to back up that claim?



#7510
wcholcombe

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And I see no problem with a magocracy through the same time period lens.

Granted, but I don't expect mundanes to be in favor of such.



#7511
Cat Lance

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Well system don't work not because mages are abused (they aren't as they have better conditions that most of peoples in thedas) it doesn't work because mages can't be controled even qunari don't control them one of their mages almost summoned army of demons and destroyed world so protecting world from mages works only whem mage is neutralized..

So now you are ignoring mental and emotional health as well as Tranquility, Ko? Those are factors as well and the very ones which lead to the issues within the C/T System.

Do you think it matters in the course of how you maintain the balance of a continent? It doesn't, Just as it doesn't matter to the rulers of Nations today, they don't care for how random citizens feel about courses of action. They maintain stability, order and discipline.

Do not mistake this for Malign intent, it is simply how it must be. Mages are people who must be contained or killed.

Not for any fault of their own, it is simply how it must be, the circles exist for that very reason.

For them to be among their own kind, safe, secure and well looked after.

You have yet to make a good or truly a direct argument against fixing the C/T System.

A system created to protect against a problem is broken when it further perpetuates it. Thus it needs to be fixed.

And don't mistake me for a bleeding heart. I am a pragmatist that understands the human factor in the equation. And values it.

#7512
LobselVith8

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I think you need reread the exact wording the Chantry uses in their teachings.

 

Magic exists to serve man, and never to rule over him.
Foul and corrupt are they
Who have taken His gift
And turned it against His children.
They shall be named Maleficar, accursed ones.
They shall find no rest in this world
Or beyond.
-Transfigurations 1:2

 

That retort does nothing to change the reality of the situation for mages in Andrastian society, which has been shaped by Chantry teachings for a millennia. We have Wynne addressing how Andrastian societies have innocent mages killed by lynch mobs because they blame mages for things that they aren't responsible for, and I highly doubt it's a coincidence that the Chantry conditions people to view magic as a curse, which is addressed by characters in the narrative like Keili, Bethany, and Meredith, with only one character calling it a blessing and a curse: Greagoir. Even Mother Hannah has to assure an Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to kill him for being a mage.

 

Magic is a gift from the Maker but it can also be a curse to those living within the realm of the Mages, The Chantry doesn't encourage the abuse that inherently stems from Magic to follow within Thedas. But Kelly, Bethany and those of similar belief believe in the Chantry that Magic is something to be fearful of, something to be watched and contained. Kelly even contemplates becoming Tranquil, Bethany can agree with the Circle System, these view points are not inherently false or negative. Ultimately the Chantry and the Templars both are wary of Magic, but you can no more deny it exists then the sky. But you can also not deny the dangers that exist within magic as well.

 

You're confusing the Chantry with the Dalish, who view magic as a gift, and don't attempt to lynch mages simply for having magical abilities. In Andrastian societies, we know how people focus on magic as a curse. Keili and Bethany are the prime examples of what happens when the dominant religion vilifies magic and mages as part of their religious rhetoric. Keili thinks that the mages deserve to be purified by the swords of mercy, while Bethany views herself as cursed because of her magical abilities.

 

And frankly i disagree: Through out visits to the Circle in Origins and witch hunt you encounter lessons being taught, Templars watching and life existing there. Whom are a minority to argue with the disruption of a system that many argue is for the best?  There isn't an argument to made for me, Any one who declares themselves to be a liberator but relies upon the death of the unwilling or innocent to achieve that result is nothing more then a simple murderer. Uldred, Anders, Fiona they aren't the Patron Saints of mage liberation, they are merely self elevated Martyrs that their own kind do their bleeding for them.

 

Hardly a minority, and not even one that's only relegated to views from people like Anders. Moderates like Irving and Wynne address that there are problems with the Chantry controlled Circles. Irving describes life in the Circle as a matter of survival, admitting: "If you want to survive, you must learn the rules and realize that sometimes, sacrifices are necessary." Irving, an Aequitarian, also provides his view of the Chantry and the templars: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

 

Wynne practically pleads with The Warden (from the Circle) to return to the Circle as a leader, in order to make it a better place; she confesses that this is actually her dream, one she thinks she won't live to see. In the City of Amaranthine, Wynne addresses that the fraternities are nearing a majority who want the Circles to be emancipated from the Chantry, so she's desperate for help to persuade the meeting at Cumberland against it. Wynne explains her rational against breaking free from the Chantry is her fear that the Chantry will kill all the mages rather than see them free.

 

For near on a thousand Years, Mages lived and existed in the remote parts of the various Nations, there were a few issues, a few bumps in the road but the world continued to spin, life moved on. No New Imperium, No mass slavery or blood sacrifice, a few revolts, a few outbreaks of abomination but the circles, mages and chantry both endured through it. Now you wish to cast down the very system that made such stability within reach, that made peace for the majority possible, just because of a man who decided himself the arbiter of Mage Kind decided to begin a war?

 

I am happy to say i am not of that mindset.

 

Putting mages into servitude to the Chantry for nearly a thousand years has lead to this moment, where the mages democratically voted against remaining in subjugation to the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, and are now being forced into a position to defend themselves against a coalition of Seekers and templars who follow Lambert's banner. I'm not going to vilify the mages for refusing to submit themselves to a religious order that deems it has "dominion over mages by divine right".

 

Apparently, many mages are willing to fight for that freedom, even if it means they die on their feet, rather than live on their knees.


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#7513
DKJaigen

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Do you think it matters in the course of how you maintain the balance of a continent? It doesn't, Just as it doesn't matter to the rulers of Nations today, they don't care for how random citizens feel about courses of action. They maintain stability, order and discipline.

 

Do not mistake this for Malign intent, it is simply how it must be. Mages are people who must be contained or killed.

 

Not for any fault of their own, it is simply how it must be, the circles exist for that very reason.

 

For them to be among their own kind, safe, secure and well looked after.

 

Goverments are only maintaned if the people believe that the goverment is out their to improve the condition of their lives. the chantry and templars have never done this.



#7514
wcholcombe

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As well as the slave revolt of Saint Domingue (modern day Haiti) or the rebellion against the dictatorship of Batista in Cuba. Violence is sometimes necessary in order to dislodge tyranny.

 

 

Given how many non-Andrastian societies have free mages but don't emulate Tevinter, I don't understand why some people assume that free mages automatically lead to another Imperium. The Dales was a nation where elven mages had positions of authority, but it didn't replicate Tevinter; neither has the kingdom of Rivain, despite seers being counted among the wise women as leaders in traditional communities.

Rivain is Andrastian.  It is ruled by Andrastians who support the chantry and according to WoT fund the Circle.  It may be more progressive but to call it non Andrastian because it has other belief systems present is misleading.  The ruling class are all Andrastian.

 

The only non Andrastian societies are the Qunari, Dwarves, Dalish, and Chasind.


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#7515
Master Warder Z_

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Right...have you any proof to back up that claim?

 

To back up how having "Seers" in Rivain whom still get possessed by the way isn't comparable to not having a circle like Lob was indicating?  :rolleyes:  Just like Lob has for using it? Right...

 

Well for Starters, there are in all likelihood far more Mages then Rivaini witches?

 

Add in the fact you wouldn't have them all in a centralized location and tracking and slaying abominations become a nightmarish chore? 

 

Add in the fact you wouldn't have a institution to educate these mages? Hedge Witches get possessed like any other Mage.

 

Honestly and people call me the "heartless" one, i am giving them safety, education and protection.

 

Your giving them reality, and as we all know, it isn't pleasant.



#7516
TheKomandorShepard

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So now you are ignoring mental and emotional health as well as Tranquility, Ko? Those are factors as well and the very ones which lead to the issues within the C/T System. You have yet to make a good or truly a direct argument against fixing the C/T System.

There aren't any mental and emotional problems with mages ( well at least caused by circles) and tranqulity is something necessary if you want keep that world in 1 piece (or rather doing that when keeping mages alive it is aboluste minimum) tevinter knows that as well.And there was no issues with system except that protecting world from magic was on very bad level... only mages that had problem with circles/system are libertarians and that is third largest group when 2 largest first supported system.  



#7517
LobselVith8

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Actually Lob you have given some food for thought with this.

 

Perhaps blood magic domination achieved over their rulers led to that idiotic course to start a war with Orlais.

 

Maker knows that there had be something prompting such a  move.

 

Maybe the war had something to do with the refusal of the elves to convert, considering the end result was forcing the elves to abandon the worship of their gods in favor of the human religion, with the elven pantheon even being criminalized by the Chantry.

 

Of course, that would mean that the Dalish historical account is right, and that the one provided by the Chantry is wrong.


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#7518
Hellion Rex

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To back up how having "Seers" in Rivain whom still get possessed by the way isn't comparable to not having a circle like Lob was indicating?  :rolleyes:  Just like Lob has for using it? Right...

 

Well for Starters, there are in all likelihood far more Mages then Rivaini witches?

 

Add in the fact you wouldn't have them all in a centralized location and tracking and slaying abominations become a nightmarish chore? 

 

Add in the fact you wouldn't have a institution to educate these mages? Hedge Witches get possessed like any other Mage.

 

Honestly and people call me the "heartless" one, i am giving them safety, education and protection.

 

Your giving them reality, and as we all know, it isn't pleasant.

Not that. I meant the Blood magic and the Dalish.



#7519
wcholcombe

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That retort does nothing to change the reality of the situation for mages in Andrastian society, which has been shaped by Chantry teachings for a millennia. We have Wynne addressing how Andrastian societies have innocent mages killed by lynch mobs because they blame mages for things that they aren't responsible for, and I highly doubt it's a coincidence that the Chantry conditions people to view magic as a curse, which is addressed by characters in the narrative like Keili, Bethany, and Meredith, with only one character calling it a blessing and a curse: Greagoir. Even Mother Hannah has to assure an Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to kill him for being a mage.

 

 

You're confusing the Chantry with the Dalish, who view magic as a gift, and don't attempt to lynch mages simply for having magical abilities. In Andrastian societies, we know how people focus on magic as a curse. Keili and Bethany are the prime examples of what happens when the dominant religion vilifies magic and mages as part of their religious rhetoric. Keili thinks that the mages deserve to be purified by the swords of mercy, while Bethany views herself as cursed because of her magical abilities.

 

 

Hardly a minority, and not even one that's only relegated to views from people like Anders. Moderates like Irving and Wynne address that there are problems with the Chantry controlled Circles. Irving describes life in the Circle as a matter of survival, admitting: "If you want to survive, you must learn the rules and realize that sometimes, sacrifices are necessary." Irving, an Aequitarian, also provides his view of the Chantry and the templars: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

 

Wynne practically pleads with The Warden (from the Circle) to return to the Circle as a leader, in order to make it a better place; she confesses that this is actually her dream, one she thinks she won't live to see. In the City of Amaranthine, Wynne addresses that the fraternities are nearing a majority who want the Circles to be emancipated from the Chantry, so she's desperate for help to persuade the meeting at Cumberland against it. Wynne explains her rational against breaking free from the Chantry is her fear that the Chantry will kill all the mages rather than see them free.

 

 

Putting mages into servitude to the Chantry for nearly a thousand years has lead to this moment, where the mages democratically voted against remaining in subjugation to the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, and are now being forced into a position to defend themselves against a coalition of Seekers and templars who follow Lambert's banner. I'm not going to vilify the mages for refusing to submit themselves to a religious order that deems it has "dominion over mages by divine right".

 

Apparently, many mages are willing to fight for that freedom, even if it means they die on their feet, rather than live on their knees.

I disagree with blaming the chantry for the lynch mobs.  That is ingnorance.  People don't need religion to beat them over the head to fear that which they don't understand.  Look little johnny can make flames, all of a sudden my crops failed, little johnny must be able to curse me.  That has nothing to do with the Chantry.  People fear mages out of ignorance.

 

The chant of light calls magic a gift from the maker.  Its repeated often by chantry followers in DAO or DA2.  Elthina herself calls it that.

 

Lob, I typically respect and can even relate to your opinions, but when it comes to the Chantry you are no more open minded then Z is about the dalish.



#7520
Hellion Rex

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Maybe the war had something to do with the refusal of the elves to convert, considering the end result was forcing the elves to abandon the worship of their gods in favor of the human religion, with the elven pantheon even being criminalized by the Chantry.

 

Of course, that would mean that the Dalish historical account is right, and that the one provided by the Chantry is wrong.

Can we leave it at both sides f*cked up, and move on. Both sides were at fault.



#7521
LobselVith8

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Rivain is Andrastian.  It is ruled by Andrastians who support the chantry and according to WoT fund the Circle.  It may be more progressive but to call it non Andrastian because it has other belief systems present is misleading.  The ruling class are all Andrastian.

 

The only non Andrastian societies are the Qunari, Dwarves, Dalish, and Chasind.

 

The kingdom of Rivain has Qunari and followers of the Natural Order; WoT also addresses the seers tend to live in the traditional settlements, where they govern with the elder women because it's a matriarchal society, while the Andrastians are in the richer settlements with the royalty, who follow the Chantry.



#7522
wcholcombe

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Violence was, however, required at other times, most prominently the American Civil War. It's true that changing society's attitudes towards mages to improve the situation cannot be achieved through violence; that's not what I or Fiona has been advocating. This fight is for survival, specifically from the menace of the templars.

 

 

 

With the various Andrastian civilizations aside from Orlais and Antiva already disliking slavery, and the former having to keep it quiet, I don't see why implementing a magocracy in most of these nations would duplicate Tevinter's worst feature.

The American Civil War being about slavery is a really poor argument, especially since we are referencing Academic arguments here.  It is roundly recognized in academic circles that the ACW was a combination economic dispute/states rights vs. central government issue.  Some of the rhetoric from the period revolves around slavery anti slavery, but slavery was on its way out anyway.  It truly wasn't a focus of the war until the Emancipation Proclamation which only ended slavery in states in revolt. Slaves in states still loyal to the union were still slaves.  Also, the emancipation proclamation would have become worthless without the amendment because following the war such states would no longer be in revolt.  Lincoln himself in his campaign speeches clearly said he had no wish for the federal government to decide the issue of slavery in states where it was already practiced.

 

Slavery was an excuse used by radicals on both sides to stir the pot for their own goals much as obama care and gun control and abortions are being used today.


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#7523
wcholcombe

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The kingdom of Rivain has Qunari and followers of the Natural Order; WoT also addresses the seers tend to live in the traditional settlements, where they govern with the elder women because it's a matriarchal society, while the Andrastians are in the richer settlements with the royalty, who follow the Chantry.

As I said, the royalty and aristocracy who rule the nation are Andrastian. 

 

Who really cares what the wise woman in a rural village decides in regards to the governance of the entire country-which is done by the royalty and aristocracy who are in power.  I never said other religions weren't present, but that doesn't mean they are in power.



#7524
LobselVith8

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I disagree with blaming the chantry for the lynch mobs.  That is ingnorance.  People don't need religion to beat them over the head to fear that which they don't understand.  Look little johnny can make flames, all of a sudden my crops failed, little johnny must be able to curse me.  That has nothing to do with the Chantry.  People fear mages out of ignorance.

 

The chant of light calls magic a gift from the maker.  Its repeated often by chantry followers in DAO or DA2.  Elthina herself calls it that.

 

Lob, I typically respect and can even relate to your opinions, but when it comes to the Chantry you are no more open minded then Z is about the dalish.

 

I respectfully disagree. It's repeatedly said (in two different Dragon Age games) by Andrastians that magic is a curse. From Circle mage Keili to apostate Bethany, and even Knight-Commander Meredith.

 

All shades of Andrastians consistency invoke the term "cursed" or a variant when addressing magic. I don't see that being separate from lynch mobs being willing to kill mages in Andrastian society simply for being mages.

 

There's a distinct difference in how Andrastian society preaches magic is a curse and mages are to blame for the Blights and the darkspawn, and how these other societies don't treat mages and magic with disdain. The Dalish see magic as a gift of the Creators. The Chasind revere the Witches of the Wild for teaching the original shamans how to harness the powers of magic. The seers are revered by the traditional communities of Rivain.

 

I'm not going to pretend that there's no correlation between what the Chantry espouses about mages, and how the Andrastian people treat mages in turn.


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#7525
Master Warder Z_

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That retort does nothing to change the reality of the situation for mages in Andrastian society, which has been shaped by Chantry teachings for a millennia. We have Wynne addressing how Andrastian societies have innocent mages killed by lynch mobs because they blame mages for things that they aren't responsible for, and I highly doubt it's a coincidence that the Chantry conditions people to view magic as a curse, which is addressed by characters in the narrative like Keili, Bethany, and Meredith, with only one character calling it a blessing and a curse: Greagoir. Even Mother Hannah has to assure an Amell Warden that a lynch mob won't attempt to kill him for being a mage.

 

 

You're confusing the Chantry with the Dalish, who view magic as a gift, and don't attempt to lynch mages simply for having magical abilities. In Andrastian societies, we know how people focus on magic as a curse. Keili and Bethany are the prime examples of what happens when the dominant religion vilifies magic and mages as part of their religious rhetoric. Keili thinks that the mages deserve to be purified by the swords of mercy, while Bethany views herself as cursed because of her magical abilities.

 

 

Hardly a minority, and not even one that's only relegated to views from people like Anders. Moderates like Irving and Wynne address that there are problems with the Chantry controlled Circles. Irving describes life in the Circle as a matter of survival, admitting: "If you want to survive, you must learn the rules and realize that sometimes, sacrifices are necessary." Irving, an Aequitarian, also provides his view of the Chantry and the templars: "And Chantry and templars are models of magnanimity? They would make us all Tranquil if they could, and call it a kindness. They fancy themselves our guardians, sitting smugly on their righteousness."

 

Wynne practically pleads with The Warden (from the Circle) to return to the Circle as a leader, in order to make it a better place; she confesses that this is actually her dream, one she thinks she won't live to see. In the City of Amaranthine, Wynne addresses that the fraternities are nearing a majority who want the Circles to be emancipated from the Chantry, so she's desperate for help to persuade the meeting at Cumberland against it. Wynne explains her rational against breaking free from the Chantry is her fear that the Chantry will kill all the mages rather than see them free.

 

 

Putting mages into servitude to the Chantry for nearly a thousand years has lead to this moment, where the mages democratically voted against remaining in subjugation to the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, and are now being forced into a position to defend themselves against a coalition of Seekers and templars who follow Lambert's banner. I'm not going to vilify the mages for refusing to submit themselves to a religious order that deems it has "dominion over mages by divine right".

 

Apparently, many mages are willing to fight for that freedom, even if it means they die on their feet, rather than live on their knees.

 

I have combated these very retorts a thousand times, offered my own position just as many and you think this tangent is something new to me? The poorly structured pleading argument to support the Mages, Honestly if you lot actually stopped the whole "support us because its morally right" garbage i might take you're arguments more seriously. Just offering that bit of advice before we begin.

 

Are you quite done trying to combat what was actually written with what your interpretation of what is? Good, Now let me start with this point.

 

The Chantry teaches magic is dangerous, it has a history of danger, abuse and horrors, it also is viewed a gift by their God, This was written in the very Canticles you apparently try to ignore. So again it doesn't "vilify" it warns of the dangers against, Its lore vs your interpretation and lore wins friend.

 

Lynch Mobs again, Do you have no other ammunition truly? Ignorant peasants aside, all that does is paint the mindscape of the common man and their view of Magic, just because the Chantry preaches Magic as a gift doesn't negate what it has accomplished in History, a notion some Pro Mages would very much like every one else to overlook because "it doesn't represent every one". And Magic again is voiced as a gift by the Maker in the Canticles, however individual interpretation is what is in Thedas as it is in our own reality, if Mages believe themselves cursed with magic?

 

That's their decision, And i'd hardly argue it a harmful one considering Magic warrants observation over all other things.

 

Anders is a stain upon their own cause in my eye, attempting to achieve change through revolution will only lead to far more suffering then it will ever fix. Irving, Ah yes the First Enchanter and very convinced of his own position, its no lie the Chantry has dominion over the circle while technicality maintains its an independent organization. He hasn't forgotten that nor his place, but his personal musings on the templars aside? Does he have a point? History has proven time and again the Circle is the best course, there has only been ONE documented clause about a possibility of mass tranquility and it was uniformly rejected by both the regions Knight Commander and the Divine, so his musings ring hollow to me. And.And surprisingly Wynne never shares the sentiment does that shock you? She is actually a support of Controls placed upon Mages, of the Circle. So how exactly is she a defender of your cause when she all but supported the same notion i do until extremists forced her hand?

 

You mean after a Murderer removed the possibility of peaceful coexistence and an extremist with taint rotting her brain held a vote as a moot point, i don't begrudge the mages their second treasonous notion, by then? Fiona and Adrian had already gotten them all killed, But with out them, this "democratically" voted separation as you called it wouldn't have come to pass, Kirkwall was a memory both parties could have eventually gotten over if not them. The blood of the mage is as much upon those pairs of hands as it is upon any Templar.

 

And how many more were content to be safe and secured from a world that was kept protected from them? Do their desires mean any less then those you happen to agree with?  :mellow:  Such a sad state of affairs this.