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Uneven Presentation of the mage-templar conflict


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#7526
wcholcombe

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I respectfully disagree. It's repeatedly said (in two different Dragon Age games) by Andrastians that magic is a curse. From Circle mage Keili to apostate Bethany, and even Knight-Commander Meredith.

 

All shades of Andrastians consistency invoke the term "cursed" or a variant when addressing magic. I don't see that being separate from lynch mobs being willing to kill mages in Andrastian society simply for being mages.

 

There's a distinct difference in how Andrastian society preaches magic is a curse and mages are to blame for the Blights and the darkspawn, and how these other societies don't treat mages and magic with disdain. The Dalish see magic as a gift of the Creators. The Chasind revere the Witches of the Wild for teaching the original shamans how to harness the powers of magic. The seers are revered by the traditional communities of Rivain.

 

I'm not going to pretend that there's no correlation between what the Chantry espouses about mages, and how the Andrastian people treat mages in turn.

ok, so we are comparing small tribal villages led by mages-the dalish, rivain, and chasind to organized societies?  Of course the interaction will be different. This isn't because of religion.

 

Magic doesn't even exist in our world and people have been killed for being accused of magic.  And no, it isn't all because the big bad catholic church did it in the inquisition.

 

Its common throughout human history in places without a judeo/christian/muslim organized religion.

 

Ignorance of not understanding what is going on and looking to blame someone for why things are going bad for you does a pretty good job of causing problems for mages without any need for religion.

 

BTW, the Chasind don't revere the witches of the wild, they FEAR them.  That is why every female who shows magical talent in Chasind society is basically immediately  sacrificed to Flemeth.  Also, the Chasind practice the exact same process of harrowing that the circles practice.  They tie an apprentice to a tree, use dragonstone to put them into the fade, and then slit their throat if they become possessed or in some cases their master just doesn't like them. 



#7527
Master Warder Z_

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Maybe the war had something to do with the refusal of the elves to convert, considering the end result was forcing the elves to abandon the worship of their gods in favor of the human religion, with the elven pantheon even being criminalized by the Chantry.

 

Of course, that would mean that the Dalish historical account is right, and that the one provided by the Chantry is wrong.

 

So skip right to the ending of the tale then?

 

Forget about how Orlais rallied and repelled an Invasion from the Dales?

 

And of course that would mean the Chantry historical account (the one WOT supports) would be correct.



#7528
Master Warder Z_

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Not that. I meant the Blood magic and the Dalish.

 

Oh it was just a theory.

 

Perhaps the Elven Mages compelled their fellows to war, Perhaps that would unexplain the unprovoked assault upon Orlais that led the Dales to their destruction.

 

I'm unsure.



#7529
LobselVith8

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ok, so we are comparing small tribal villages led by mages-the dalish, rivain, and chasind to organized societies?  Of course the interaction will be different. This isn't because of religion.

 

I'm comparing societies that don't vilify mages and magic as part of their religious doctrine with Andrastian society. The Dalish clans are also the remanants of the nation of the Dales, while Rivain is still a kingdom.

 

Magic doesn't even exist in our world and people have been killed for being accused of magic.  And no, it isn't all because the big bad catholic church did it in the inquisition.

 

Its common throughout human history in places without a judeo/christian/muslim organized religion.

 

Ignorance of not understanding what is going on and looking to blame someone for why things are going bad for you does a pretty good job of causing problems for mages without any need for religion.

 

Please don't invoke real world religion when addressing the Chantry. I'm not going to compare a ficticious religious organization with a real one.

 

In Thedas, we have societies where magic is treated with respect, and isn't feared. Gaider even said when abominations take place in these societies, they see it akin to a "natural disaster". There's a clear difference, and that's in part to how the people are taught to view magic and mages.

 

BTW, the Chasind don't revere the witches of the wild, they FEAR them.  That is why every female who shows magical talent in Chasind society is basically immediately  sacrificed to Flemeth.  Also, the Chasind practice the exact same process of harrowing that the circles practice.  They tie an apprentice to a tree, use dragonstone to put them into the fade, and then slit their throat if they become possessed or in some cases their master just doesn't like them. 

 

"Today, the Chasind are considered largely peaceful, though their ways are still primitive compared to our own. In the Korcari Wilds they live in strange-looking huts built on stilts or even built into the great treetops. They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these shamans having learned their magic from the 'Witches of the Wilds,' witches that inspire as much terror as they do awe and gratitude even if there is no definitive proof they exist. In particular, the tale of Flemeth, the greatest witch of the wilds, is celebrated amongst all tribes." - Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.



#7530
Hanako Ikezawa

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No he did not. He is a grey warden therefore completely over any law the chantry or templars enforce. Only one grey warden thought that way who betrayed the order and Anders. The wardens would have put Anders to good use, he obliterated a full squad of Templars with a single spell, people who train for years to counter his kind, what are some puny darkspawn? They have used far worse against darkspawn. Anders did NOTHING punishable by death. 

 

 
So all mages are villains? Good to know.

 
To make things clear lets choose one person from each side and see how it goes. I will pick those who acted as leaders to better represent each side
 
Fiona
 
Description of chaotic good: A Chaotic Good character favors change for a greater good, disdains bureaucratic organizations that get in the way of social improvement, and places a high value on personal freedom, not only for oneself, but for others as well. They always intend to do the right thing, but their methods are generally disorganized and often out of alignment with the rest of society. They may create conflict in a team if they feel they are being pushed around, and often view extensive organization and planning as pointless, preferring to improvise.

 

Other examples of chaotic good: Robin Hood, Starbuck from Battlestar Galactica, and Malcolm Reynolds from Firefly are examples of Chaotic Good individuals.

 

Result: Exact match, Fiona is as chaotic good as chaotic good can be.

 

Lambert

 

Description of lawful evil: A Lawful Evil character sees a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and shows a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor.

 

Other examples of lawful evil: Boba Fett of Star Wars, and X-Men's Magneto are cited examples of Lawful Evil

 

Result: Exact match, Lambert is Lawful evil.

Those two characters fit that classification, sure. That doesn't mean everybody in their faction automatically does as well. 



#7531
LobselVith8

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So skip right to the ending of the tale then?

 

Forget about how Orlais rallied and repelled an Invasion from the Dales?

 

If the Dales was invaded and the elves were retaliating against a neighbor that threatened their religious freedom and their way of life, that doesn't change the inception of the war.

 

Of course, the player isn't in a position to know which side is telling the truth.

 

And of course that would mean the Chantry historical account (the one WOT supports) would be correct.

 

When you can actually provide proof that reads that WoT is saying the Dalish historical account is incorrect, feel free to share it.



#7532
Hellion Rex

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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. BOTH SIDES SCREWED UP. CAN WE MOVE ON?



#7533
EmissaryofLies

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FOR THE LOVE OF GOD. BOTH SIDES SCREWED UP. CAN WE MOVE ON?

 

Mage genitalia swings harder and faster than Mundane genitalia, Eluvianix. Of course we cannot move on.



#7534
Hellion Rex

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Mage genitalia swings harder and faster than Mundane genitalia, Eluvianix. Of course we cannot move on.

:huh:



#7535
LobselVith8

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:huh:

 

This thread is going to some dark places, mi amigo.


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#7536
Lulupab

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OMG I laughed my arse off.



#7537
Lulupab

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Mage genitalia swings harder and faster than Mundane genitalia, Eluvianix. Of course we cannot move on.

 

Lol reminds of that Isabela and Anders banter about their time at the brothel of Ferelden. The pearl was it? Isabela was talking about that "lighting thing" Anders can do.


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#7538
Master Warder Z_

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If the Dales was invaded and the elves were retaliating against a neighbor that threatened their religious freedom and their way of life, that doesn't change the inception of the war.

 

Except that they started it?

 

When they maintain they didn't?

 

 

Of course, the player isn't in a position to know which side is telling the truth.

 

No but we can make some half decent reasonable guesses from what has been inferred.

 

 

When you can actually provide proof that reads that WoT is saying the Dalish historical account is incorrect, feel free to share it.

 

When you can actually provide Dalish lore that isn't directly contradicted by WOT or the Chantry accounts, Feel free to share it.



#7539
Master Warder Z_

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Lol reminds of that Isabela and Anders banter about their time at the brothel of Ferelden. The pearl was it? Isabela was talking about that "lighting thing" Anders can do.

 

I preferred the discussion over Fenris's abilities.

 

It was quite amusing, more so then some random brothel story that doesn't even include the racy bits.



#7540
Rainbow Wyvern

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Choosing now to start reading this thread again is a mistake I'll never fix.

..... :mellow:?


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#7541
wcholcombe

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I'm comparing societies that don't vilify mages and magic as part of their religious doctrine with Andrastian society. The Dalish clans are also the remanants of the nation of the Dales, while Rivain is still a kingdom.

 

 

Please don't invoke real world religion when addressing the Chantry. I'm not going to compare a ficticious religious organization with a real one.

 

In Thedas, we have societies where magic is treated with respect, and isn't feared. Gaider even said when abominations take place in these societies, they see it akin to a "natural disaster". There's a clear difference, and that's in part to how the people are taught to view magic and mages.

 

 

"Today, the Chasind are considered largely peaceful, though their ways are still primitive compared to our own. In the Korcari Wilds they live in strange-looking huts built on stilts or even built into the great treetops. They paint their faces and are split into small tribes ruled by shamans like those amongst the Avvars. There are many tales of these shamans having learned their magic from the 'Witches of the Wilds,' witches that inspire as much terror as they do awe and gratitude even if there is no definitive proof they exist. In particular, the tale of Flemeth, the greatest witch of the wilds, is celebrated amongst all tribes." - Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

All three of your examples involve small clan/tribal societies where magic specifically has a place of honor.  That is different than small uneducated villages that fear magic because they don't understand it.

 

I was specifically not referring to real world religions, but just pointing out the fact that in our history often times people were accused of magic to explain bad things happening and summarily killed without a religious context.

 

Having survived 3 Category 4 or 5 hurricanes, I can tell you right now, if I had a way to lock up said hurricanes rather than experiencing their destructive power I would.

 

Ok, here is another lore reply on the Chasind.

 

The rest of the time, the shamans mirror the suspicious hostility that exists between the clans, and to an even greater degree. Exchange of knowledge is almost unheard of, and spells are guarded jealously. Each shaman will take an apprentice to train, but much of that 'apprenticeship' is little more than indentured servitude, with the apprentice forced to do the shaman's bidding, while learning basic, nonmagical healing skills, such as herbcraft, and only the most basic of magics.

The reasons for this are twofold: first, the only way that an apprentice may assume the position of shaman is upon the death of his master. Occasionally, this happens through natural causes, but more frequently, when the apprentice gains sufficient skill and the shaman grows weaker with age, student will challenge master to a magical duel to the death (more subtle means, such as assassination, have also been utilized, but are considerably riskier). This gives the shaman a powerful incentive to withhold the teaching of his strongest spells until he is growing close to death, and it is not unusual for apprenticeships to last for decades.

The second reason is that attrition among apprentices is extremely high; over half perish, either learning their early spells (those involving lightning and fire are particularly risky), or during the test of the spirits, a ritual similar to the Harrowing of the Circle. An apprentice is tied securely to a tree or rock, and his master places a large amount of drakestongue beneath his tongue. He enters the spirit world, encountering both demons and benevolent spirits. If a demon overwhelms him (or if the shaman does not particularly like this apprentice), his throat will be cut, and another apprentice will be recruited in his place.

It is because of this that apprentices to the shamans have little to no status within the clan until after they have passed the test of the spirits; at an age where most young men are learning to hunt and fight, and are selecting prospective wives to court, an apprentice shaman is learning herbcraft, how to fish and trap animals, and the most basic of spells, and is not considered a good prospect for a husband until after he has passed his test (and perhaps not even then, depending upon how young and vital the current shaman is).

Women are not permitted to be shamans. The awe in which the Chasind hold the legendary Witches of the Wilds is laced with more than a little fear, as well, and any girl who displays magical ability is taken from her clan and tied to an altar well away from any Chasind settlements, as an offering to Flemeth and her daughters. These women always vanish in the night, and none have been seen again.

 

http://wardensvigil....iki/The_Chasind



#7542
Cat Lance

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I have combated these very retorts a thousand times, offered my own position just as many and you think this tangent is something new to me? The poorly structured pleading argument to support the Mages, Honestly if you lot actually stopped the whole "support us because its morally right" garbage i might take you're arguments more seriously. Just offering that bit of advice before we begin.

That's funny, I did just that in my last response to you and you ignored it.

There aren't any mental and emotional problems with mages ( well at least caused by circles) and tranqulity is something necessary if you want keep that world in 1 piece (or rather doing that when keeping mages alive it is aboluste minimum) tevinter knows that as well.And there was no issues with system except that protecting world from magic was on very bad level... only mages that had problem with circles/system are libertarians and that is third largest group when 2 largest first supported system.

So, you aren't going to acknowledge that living in constant fear is an issue? There is a huge difference between surviving and living. Circle mages survive intact by keeping their head down and never asking I fully live as others. The fact that they fear reprisal if they did does not justify the state they are forced to survive in

#7543
LobselVith8

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Except that they started it?

 

When they maintain they didn't?

 

It reads that Red Crossing was attacked; it doesn't say whether this was in retaliation to human incursion or not. So again, we have no evidence about who started the war, one way or the other. WoT provided no clarification, and no developer provided a comment to say that one side was right or wrong.

 

No but we can make some half decent reasonable guesses from what has been inferred.

 

We have two sides that claim that the other started the war; that's literally it. Given that the war transpired centuries ago, the player isn't in a position to know what actually happened.

 

When you can actually provide Dalish lore that isn't directly contradicted by WOT or the Chantry accounts, Feel free to share it.

 

I did, with the link to my elven thread, where I provided the excerpt for the fall of the Dales from WoT, as well as the page number where it can be located. Nowhere did it read that the Dalish historical account was wrong. It was an abridged version of what happened, truncating a lot of information into a paragraph. Now, if you're actually in a position to provide any evidence to show that the Dalish historical account is wrong, feel free to share it. Otherwise, stop pretending that WoT reads that it's wrong.



#7544
Lulupab

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I preferred the discussion over Fenris's abilities.

 

It was quite amusing, more so then some random brothel story that doesn't even include the racy bits.

 

Yet the Brothel of Kirkwall is constantly trying to hire Anders. Not everyday you can have a threesome with a spirit of the fade. :P



#7545
The Elder King

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@whcolcombe: that's very interesting. So the Chasind have a similar ritual to the Harrowing, and their opinion and treatment of female mages is way worse than the Chantry.
Also, the link you provided states that blood magic isn't practiced (if not in secret) and that the clans gathered the last time to defeat a BM who wanted to control everyone.

#7546
The Elder King

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Yet the Brothel of Kirkwall is constantly trying to hire Anders. Not everyday you can have a threesome with a spirit of the fade. :P


Is that really true :huh:?

#7547
wcholcombe

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@whcolcombe: that's very interesting. So the Chasind have a similar ritual to the Harrowing, and their opinion and treatment of female mages is way worse than the Chantry.
Also, the link you provided states that blood magic isn't practiced (if not in secret) and that the clans gathered the last time to defeat a BM who wanted to control everyone.

Well theoretically the women become flemeth's daughters.  I would actually prefer that to the chasind way of life-provided the whole taking over my body thing isn't real.  Based off that and other things in the link we can at least raise the possibility that Morrigan is of Chasind descent.



#7548
The Elder King

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Well theoretically the women become flemeth's daughters.  I would actually prefer that to the chasind way of life-provided the whole taking over my body thing isn't real.  Based off that and other things in the link we can at least raise the possibility that Morrigan is of Chasind descent.


I doubt that every female mage Chasind became a Witch of the Wilds, in all honesty.

#7549
LobselVith8

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All three of your examples involve small clan/tribal societies where magic specifically has a place of honor.  That is different than small uneducated villages that fear magic because they don't understand it.

 

It's different because the Chantry preaches that magic is a curse, and that mages cursed the seat of the Maker and brought the Blight upon humanity. The Dalish are also the remnants of a nation where mages and magic weren't vilified, since mages were among the nobility who governed the kingdom. The fact that mages are killed for being mages in a society where mages and magic is condemned isn't something that I find to be unrelated to one another.

 

I was specifically not referring to real world religions, but just pointing out the fact that in our history often times people were accused of magic to explain bad things happening and summarily killed without a religious context.

 

Real world religions aren't comparable to fictional religions set on a continent where magic is real. I'd rather avoid addressing any real world religions, if you don't mind.

 

Having survived 3 Category 4 or 5 hurricanes, I can tell you right now, if I had a way to lock up said hurricanes rather than experiencing their destructive power I would.

 

I have no interest in locking people up because of how they're born.

 

Ok, here is another lore reply on the Chasind.

 

You linked to a page from a roleplaying wiki?

 

Anyway, I'm not seeing anything in that long paragraph where mages or magic are vilified. The codex clearly reads that the Chasind view the Witches of the Wild with awe and gratitude, as well as terror, and even celebrate Flemeth among all the tribes.



#7550
Lulupab

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Is that really true :huh:?

 
Anders says "if they try to hire me again I'm leaving" with an angry tone when Hawke enters the brothel for the first time. I think there was a tiny mention somewhere else too but I can't seem to recall right now.