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[The Elder King]

Anders says "if they try to hire me again I'm leaving" with an angry tone when Hawke enters the brothel for the first time. I think there was a tiny mention somewhere else too but I can't seem to recall right now.

I actually remember it now. I forgot about that line .

You linked to a page from a roleplaying wiki?

Anyway, I'm not seeing anything in that long paragraph where mages or magic are vilified. The codex clearly reads that the Chasind view the Witches of the Wild with awe and gratitude, as well as terror, and even celebrate Flemeth among all the tribes.

Female mages are feared enough to be left in the Wilds for Flemeth and her daughters. We have no clue if they'd survive the ordeal or not.
And the spirit trial is practically the Harrowing.

[wcholcombe]

It's different because the Chantry preaches that magic is a curse, and that mages cursed the seat of the Maker and brought the Blight upon humanity. The Dalish are also the remnants of a nation where mages and magic weren't vilified, since mages were among the nobility who governed the kingdom. The fact that mages are killed for being mages in a society where mages and magic is condemned isn't something that I find to be unrelated to one another.

 

 

Real world religions aren't comparable to fictional religions set on a continent where magic is real. I'd rather avoid addressing any real world religions, if you don't mind.

 

 

I have no interest in locking people up because of how they're born.

 

 

You linked to a page from a roleplaying wiki?

 

Anyway, I'm not seeing anything in that long paragraph where mages or magic are vilified. The codex clearly reads that the Chasind view the Witches of the Wild with awe and gratitude, as well as terror, and even celebrate Flemeth among all the tribes.

I never used real world religions.  I have been saying for 3 posts now that I am not bringing real world religions into this-just real world examples of how ignorant people react to things they don't understand.

 

I don't believe in locking them up either, but if there was a way to train a thunderstorm off the coast of africa so that it didn't bring a 25 ft storm surge to my town, I would like to train it.

 

The link I posted is info pulled directly from the Dragon age table top RPG book, unless that is somehow not considered lore for some reason?

The point was that Chasind kill mages and subject them to the harrowing the same as the circle does in some cases.  Plus, apprentices are basically slaves who are taught very little.

[Master Warder Z_]

That's funny, I did just that in my last response to you and you ignored it.

 

No i ignored the sentiment that Mage's mental and emotional health should be a primary concern when you are literally talking about continental stability.

 

Their welfare should be a pironity, but no more so then any other group, After all Mages exist entirely at the generosity of third parties, The Chantry foots their bills. If they become more involved with their own upkeep perhaps my stance would shift, who knows.

[Hellion Rex]

No i ignored the sentiment that Mage's mental and emotional health should be a primary concern when you are literally talking about continental stability.

 

Their welfare should be a pironity, but no more so then any other group, After all Mages exist entirely at the generosity of third parties, The Chantry foots their bills. If they become more involved with their own upkeep perhaps my stance would shift, who knows.

Of course the Chantry pays for the upkeep of the Circles. It's the containment that they themselves demanded, so of course they would need to foot the bills. And the Formari certainly play a large role in the whole process as well.

[Cat Lance]

No i ignored the sentiment that Mage's mental and emotional health should be a primary concern when you are literally talking about continental stability.
 
Their welfare should be a pironity, but no more so then any other group, After all Mages exist entirely at the generosity of third parties, The Chantry foots their bills. If they become more involved with their own upkeep perhaps my stance would shift, who knows.

Enchantment! Also, that is a circular argument. They can't hold jobs when they are barely permitted outside their towers.

Not to mention that this is not an excuse for inhumane treatment.

Further, inhumane treatment of a group you claim is amazingly dangerous is not an intelligent way to handle the situation.

[Master Warder Z_]

Enchantment! Also, that is a circular argument. They can't hold jobs when they are barely permitted outside their towers.

Not to mention that this is not an excuse for inhumane treatment.

Further, inhumane treatment of a group you claim is amazingly dangerous is not an intelligent way to handle the situation.

 

Enchantment, Yes the method by which the circle repays the Chantry for its vast generosity. Its a useful station for both parties, my point is strictly this however, do you really believe that if the Chantry was just withdrawal one day the Circles would continue to be what they were? No, The burden of financing would either fall upon the various Nations they were located within or the Mages themselves, either way would be a major endeavor. 

 

Inhuman treatment? No, They are simply treated as dangerous, it is and will be no more then that, the only true danger of mages comes from themselves, their own weakness, ego, vanity, and stupidity. They have the temperament of normal people and that isn't suficient to maintain such power, you cannot dictate normalcy with you are yourself not "normal".

 

They are given education, food, trusted members are allowed to roam freely even with out escort, the Circle can and has been a HOME to mages, and misrepresentation of my argument is not an effective way to construe an argument if we are arguing intelligence here.

[TK514]

Anders says "if they try to hire me again I'm leaving" with an angry tone when Hawke enters the brothel for the first time. I think there was a tiny mention somewhere else too but I can't seem to recall right now.

A brothel would have a great deal of use and business for a Mage who can cure any STD in moments.

[Hellion Rex]

Enchantment, Yes the method by which the circle repays the Chantry for its vast generosity.

Generosity...for containment? You have to be joking. Call a spade a spade man. It's freaking locking away these people away for their whole lives. They are supposed to be grateful for that? Granted, I think the Circle is necessary, but what you said is completely ridiculous.

[Master Warder Z_]

It reads that Red Crossing was attacked; it doesn't say whether this was in retaliation to human incursion or not. So again, we have no evidence about who started the war, one way or the other. WoT provided no clarification, and no developer provided a comment to say that one side was right or wrong.

 

See you keep mentioning that as if should mean something, WOT and most of the lore makes it evident Orlais made no move or incursion upon the Dales, then how exactly would an invasion of Orlais be done in recitation? Or do you maintain the dales declared war upon Humanity or the Chantry or some other ludicrous nonsense?

 

 

We have two sides that claim that the other started the war; that's literally it. Given that the war transpired centuries ago, the player isn't in a position to know what actually happened.

 

True enough but we as observers here in reality are more then capable of constructing what occurred fairly easily.

 

 

I did, with the link to my elven thread, where I provided the excerpt for the fall of the Dales from WoT, as well as the page number where it can be located. Nowhere did it read that the Dalish historical account was wrong. It was an abridged version of what happened, truncating a lot of information into a paragraph. Now, if you're actually in a position to provide any evidence to show that the Dalish historical account is wrong, feel free to share it. Otherwise, stop pretending that WoT reads that it's wrong.

 

Except that it basically comes down to them invading a Nation that hadn't made aggression against them yet, therefore an unprovoked invasion or it was done under some minute banner of Orlais somehow representing the Human chantry or some other nonsense. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Generosity...for containment? You have to be joking. Call a spade a spade man. It's freaking locking away these people away for their whole lives. They are supposed to be grateful for that? Granted, I think the Circle is necessary, but what you said is completely ridiculous.

 

It educates them, keeps them safe from themselves and the world and it allows them continued existence.

 

The Circles are a boon to Mages in my eye, not merely a needed thing, but a thing of good.

[Hellion Rex]

It educates them, keeps them safe from themselves and the world and it allows them continued existence.

 

The Circles are a boon to Mages in my eye, not merely a needed thing, but a thing of good.

Your words are not doing much to assuage my issues with your position on the subject. Continued existence? As if the Chantry is granting these people the right to live? Such assertions are why the Circles rebelled to begin with, and why you will continue to have problems, until you fix your methodology.

[Cat Lance]

Enchantment, Yes the method by which the circle repays the Chantry for its vast generosity. Its a useful station for both parties, my point is strictly this however, do you really believe that if the Chantry was just withdrawal one day the Circles would continue to be what they were? No, The burden of financing would either fall upon the various Nations they were located within or the Mages themselves, either way would be a major endeavor. 
 
Inhuman treatment? No, They are simply treated as dangerous, it is and will be no more then that, the only true danger of mages comes from themselves, their own weakness, ego, vanity, and stupidity. They have the temperament of normal people and that isn't suficient to maintain such power, you cannot dictate normalcy with you are yourself not "normal".
 
They are given education, food, trusted members are allowed to roam freely even with out escort, the Circle can and has been a HOME to mages, and misrepresentation of my argument is not an effective way to construe an argument if we are arguing intelligence here.

I've also never called for the Chantry to end their involvement completely. I have upwardly referenced the idea that the C/T System requires revision.

And Tranquility is not inhumane? Keeping most mages prisoners is not inhumane? Regardless of your opinions on it dying something they should be happy with, the characters have shown that they are not. Now they rise up, now these people classified as very dangerous have become willing to use hat dangerous power to secure their freedom.

So... Tell me what a great system it currently is again?

[Master Warder Z_]

Your words are not doing much to assuage my issues with your position on the subject. Continued existence? As if the Chantry is granting these people the right to live? Such assertions are why the Circles rebelled to begin with, and why you will continue to have problems, until you fix your methodology.

 

In essence? Yes.

 

The world has not fond memories of Mages, what do you think would come of it if the Chantry declared the very canticle i mentioned earlier to be called to edit? What if they did declare Magic a curse from the Maker? Do you think those Mages would be tolerated within society? Even as they are now, they exist and at the mercy of the Chantry none the less.

 

But i have no delusion that such a thing could change, a Church's power isn't in the armies it can command nor is it in its Coffers, its being able to speak for God.

[wcholcombe]

See you keep mentioning that as if should mean something, WOT and most of the lore makes it evident Orlais made no move or incursion upon the Dales, then how exactly would an invasion of Orlais be done in recitation? Or do you maintain the dales declared war upon Humanity or the Chantry or some other ludicrous nonsense?

 

 

 

True enough but we as observers here in reality are more then capable of constructing what occurred fairly easily.

 

 

 

Except that it basically comes down to them invading a Nation that hadn't made aggression against them yet, therefore an unprovoked invasion or it was done under some minute banner of Orlais somehow representing the Human chantry or some other nonsense. 

Good grief ya'll have had this argument before.

 

Lob will maintain that the Dalish responded to Chantry agression supported by Orais, sense he regards them as one and the same half the time.

Z will maintain that WoT makes no mention of Orlesian agression and that Orlais was recovering from a blight the Dalish didn't take part in fighting and was in no position to start a war, and that basically the Dalish are a bunch of blood thirsty heathen savages.

 

The dalish wanted to be left alone, the Chantry wanted to spread the chant, the Orlesians were mad that the Dalish didn't assist in the blight.

 

In the end one side or the other probably insulted the others mother and started the whole thing. We don't know and we won't know.  Why?  The same reason we won't know who is right about a supreme being or what really happened with the gold city or where the darkspawn came from:

 

Gaider, Laidlaw, and such are committed to making a world or greys with no absolute good and evils, with multiple perspectives that can be considered good dependent upon the player.  Not answering any of the above allows them to create that grey moral ambiguity they want for their story.

[thetinyevil]

It educates them, keeps them safe from themselves and the world and it allows them continued existence.

 

The Circles are a boon to Mages in my eye, not merely a needed thing, but a thing of good.

Not really. It is a prison and torture chamber. And I'm not talking about physical torture but emotional and psychological torture which is a damaging, if not more so, than physical torture.

[Lulupab]

Don't forget that the chantry openly supported hunting and killing all mages after defeat of Tevinter. Its was only after that they found out they cannot defeat the blights or other disasters without mages they decided to form the circles. That's right, southern thedas FAILED to stop the blight, completely and utterly defeated by it. Tevinter knowledge of blood helped to create the the wardens who first appeared in Tevinter and started spreading, the strongest Tevinter Magisters turned the tide of battle and many mages from all over southern Thedas joined the fray and the blight finally defeated on plains of Nevarra, in front of chantry's very eyes. 

 

The chantry wanted mages dead until they proved themselves useful and saved the world from total annihilation.

[Cat Lance]

It educates them, keeps them safe from themselves and the world and it allows them continued existence.
 
The Circles are a boon to Mages in my eye, not merely a needed thing, but a thing of good.

There is a considerable disparity between continuing existence and Living. Keeping the mages reasonably treated is a part of keeping everyone safe.

[Hellion Rex]

In essence? Yes.

 

The world has not fond memories of Mages, what do you think would come of it if the Chantry declared the very canticle i mentioned earlier to be called to edit? What if they did declare Magic a curse from the Maker? Do you think those Mages would be tolerated within society? Even as they are now, they exist and at the mercy of the Chantry none the less.

 

But i have no delusion that such a thing could change, a Church's power isn't in the armies it can command nor is it in its Coffers, its being able to speak for God.

In essence, whatever. But if you continue to preach such topics in the way you have been talking to me, just now, you are gonna have a rebellion again and again.

[Master Warder Z_]

I've also never called for the Chantry to end their involvement completely. I have upwardly referenced the idea that the C/T System requires revision.

And Tranquility is not inhumane? Keeping most mages prisoners is not inhumane? Regardless of your opinions on it dying something they should be happy with, the characters have shown that they are not. Now they rise up, now these people classified as very dangerous have become willing to use hat dangerous power to secure their freedom.

So... Tell me what a great system it currently is again?

 

So you expect me to believe that just because you have three people who raise up against this System, all mages must?

 

Because you have a few individuals who speak against this system declaring it to be negative, it is negative?

 

Adrian, Fiona, and Anders are NOT all mages, even if they would speak for them as if they were and not merely charlatans who are content to let other people bleed for their politics.

 

And actually i view the Rite as a Mercy, It is a stay from execution for mages who are too weak to face the harrowing, would you prefer they merely die because they are weak? Or Mage criminals? Would you prefer they be executed as well? Tranquility is a stay from capital punishment its an appeasement to mages, not to mention the Tranquil to me? are still people.

 

And i'd say this, This is the first rebellion in near on a thousand years.

 

The Circle will prevented this for nearly a Millenia, You expect me to espouse it for failing when it in fact didn't? Mages forcing the system to fail isn't the system failing.

[wcholcombe]

Not really. It is a prison and torture chamber. And I'm not talking about physical torture but emotional and psychological torture which is a damaging, if not more so, than physical torture.

Seriously?  Are prep schools emotional and psychological torture?  What about sports academies in parts of america, europe, and asia where parents ship their kids off to live at in hopes of them becoming an olympian or pro athlete?

 

Many of these operate under similar conditions to the circles.  Not allowed to leave unless your parents come get you and even then in some cases, small dormitories, rigorous hours and training, lots of the time the kids are sent there whether they actually want to go or not.

 

There are issues I have with the circle system-primarily the actions of some of the templars who run it, but I am not going to say that the system itself causes torture.

[TK514]

Generosity...for containment? You have to be joking. Call a spade a spade man. It's freaking locking away these people away for their whole lives. They are supposed to be grateful for that? Granted, I think the Circle is necessary, but what you said is completely ridiculous.

Agree with the basic premise or not, there is a great deal of generosity inherent in the way the Circles are run.

They could be run considerably more cheaply. No expensive libraries, no expensive laboratories, no expensive furnishings, no expensive supplies, no expensive personal wardrobe or staff components, a vastly reduced need for lyrium since it would only be used for enchanting, the list goes on and on.

So no, not generosity for the containment. Generosity for making that containment more pleasant and mentally stimulating than the majority of the continent could ever hope to enjoy.

[Hellion Rex]

Don't forget that the chantry openly supported hunting and killing all mages after defeat of Tevinter. Its was only after that they found out they cannot defeat the blights or other disasters with mages they decided to form the circles. That's right, southern thedas FAILED to stop the blight, completely and utterly defeated by it. Tevinter knowledge of blood helped to create the the wardens who first appeared in Tevinter and started spreading, the strongest Tevinter Magisters turned the tide of battle and many mages from all over southern Thedas joined the fray and the blight finally defeated on plains of Nevarra, in front of chantry's very eyes. 

 

The chantry wanted mages dead until they proved themselves useful and saved the world from total annihilation.

Well, technically the Anderfels were still apart of the TE at this point.

[Hellion Rex]

Agree with the basic premise or not, there is a great deal of generosity inherent in the way the Circles are run.

They could be run considerably more cheaply. No expensive libraries, no expensive laboratories, no expensive furnishings, no expensive supplies, no expensive personal wardrobe or staff components, a vastly reduced need for lyrium since it would only be used for enchanting, the list goes on and on.

So no, not generosity for the containment. Generosity for making that containment more pleasant and mentally stimulating than the majority of the continent could ever hope to enjoy.

And yet this methodology still did not prevent the mages from seceding.

[wcholcombe]

Don't forget that the chantry openly supported hunting and killing all mages after defeat of Tevinter. Its was only after that they found out they cannot defeat the blights or other disasters without mages they decided to form the circles. That's right, southern thedas FAILED to stop the blight, completely and utterly defeated by it. Tevinter knowledge of blood helped to create the the wardens who first appeared in Tevinter and started spreading, the strongest Tevinter Magisters turned the tide of battle and many mages from all over southern Thedas joined the fray and the blight finally defeated on plains of Nevarra, in front of chantry's very eyes. 

 

The chantry wanted mages dead until they proved themselves useful and saved the world from total annihilation.

Actually the Wardens started in the Anderfels who were technically still a part of Tevinter but still .

 

The warden army that defeated them consisted of Tevinter, Rivain, and Ciraine soldiers, and the battle took place in southern Tevinter not Nevarra.  The silent plains are in Tevinter and the Nakiri are the ones who first suggested using darkspawn blood.

 

I don't know where this business about hunting down and killing mages comes from.  I know it happened in Tevinter to all the magisters/clerics who didn't change to the new religion, but I have no knowledge of it in Southern Thedas, especially considering the 1st Inquisition from which the Templars came spent as much time defending mages as they did hunting them down.

[Master Warder Z_]

And yet this methodology still did not prevent the mages from seceding.

 

It did not prevent war mongers from getting their war no.

 

But then when does appeasement do that?

 

History is filled with that very premise.