8640 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

It did not prevent war mongers from getting their war no.

 

But then when does appeasement do that?

 

History is filled with that very premise.

And what manner of appeasement are you referring to?

[thetinyevil]

Seriously?  Are prep schools emotional and psychological torture?  What about sports academies in parts of america, europe, and asia where parents ship their kids off to live at in hopes of them becoming an olympian or pro athlete?

 

Many of these operate under similar conditions to the circles.  Not allowed to leave unless your parents come get you and even then in some cases, small dormitories, rigorous hours and training, lots of the time the kids are sent there whether they actually want to go or not.

 

There are issues I have with the circle system-primarily the actions of some of the templars who run it, but I am not going to say that the system itself causes torture.

No even close. A student can leave a prep school and not got back and they will not be hunted down and killed. They aren't flogged in front of the student body for small infraction real or imagined. They aren't lobotomized if they are unruly or to weak. They are protected by laws that are actually up held and if someone does break the law the person breaking them are punished not the kid. These two system are completely different. Kids are allowed to keep in contact with their families not just rich kids who parents who can bribe the right people.

 

The Circle system as it is allows the abuses that happen to continue with not repercussion for the abusers. Also if you are told everyday that you are evil by everyone in the system that you are sin and curse that is a form of torture. 

 

If you want to believe it or not it is a form of torture that needs to be changed.

[Lulupab]

Actually the Wardens started in the Anderfels who were technically still a part of Tevinter but still .

 

The warden army that defeated them consisted of Tevinter, Rivain, and Ciraine soldiers, and the battle took place in southern Tevinter not Nevarra.  The silent plains are in Tevinter and the Nakiri are the ones who first suggested using darkspawn blood.

 

I don't know where this business about hunting down and killing mages comes from.  I know it happened in Tevinter to all the magisters/clerics who didn't change to the new religion, but I have no knowledge of it in Southern Thedas, especially considering the 1st Inquisition from which the Templars came spent as much time defending mages as they did hunting them down.

 

David Gaider pointed it out officially in an interview. In Anderfels Warriors from all over thedas gathered, with help of Tevinter knowledge of blood that it holds power plus ancient knowledge of Arlathan provided by the elves the first grey wardens were formed.

 

In the early years of the Divine Age, the Chantry was newly established in Orlais and the use of magic, though illegal, was rampant and unchecked. The Inquisition was a group who rose up to defend the people against the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take, blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics. After the first Blight, the Chantry recognized the mages’ value in helping protect humanity and so sought a better solution.

 

In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry. The mage hunters switched their focus from hunting to guarding mages and established the Templar Order as the wardens for the newly created Circle of Magi. The senior members of the Inquisition became the Seekers of Truth, overseers of the templars and special agents of the Divine.

 

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

http://dragonage.wik...Nevarran_Accord

 

Before the ending of first blight mages of southern thedas were hunted like animals, corrupt or no. Magic was forbidden.

[TK514]

And yet this methodology still did not prevent the mages from seceding.

The fact that they were educated and in a position to want to secede is a result of the Chantry's generosity. And,frankly, just because party A is generous doesn't mean party B will be grateful.

[spirosz]

The chantry wanted mages dead until they proved themselves useful and saved the world from total annihilation.

 

It's sad that the Chantry is so scared, yet they should be - but only under certain circumstances.  

[Hellion Rex]

The fact that they were educated and in a position to want to secede is a result of the Chantry's generosity. And,frankly, just because party A is generous doesn't mean party B will be grateful.

I'm not arguing the necessity of the Circle's. I'm only criticizing the way you are approaching the situation, lest we end up in an endless cycle of rebellions.

[The Elder King]

Don't forget that the chantry openly supported hunting and killing all mages after defeat of Tevinter. Its was only after that they found out they cannot defeat the blights or other disasters without mages they decided to form the circles. That's right, southern thedas FAILED to stop the blight, completely and utterly defeated by it. Tevinter knowledge of blood helped to create the the wardens who first appeared in Tevinter and started spreading, the strongest Tevinter Magisters turned the tide of battle and many mages from all over southern Thedas joined the fray and the blight finally defeated on plains of Nevarra, in front of chantry's very eyes.

The chantry wanted mages dead until they proved themselves useful and saved the world from total annihilation.

What on earth are you saying? The Chantry didn't exist during the first Blight. Andraste wasn't alive during the First Blight.

[Cat Lance]

So you expect me to believe that just because you have three people who raise up against this System, all mages must?
 
Because you have a few individuals who speak against this system declaring it to be negative, it is negative?
 
Adrian, Fiona, and Anders are NOT all mages, even if they would speak for them as if they were and not merely charlatans who are content to let other people bleed for their politics.
 
And actually i view the Rite as a Mercy, It is a stay from execution for mages who are too weak to face the harrowing, would you prefer they merely die because they are weak? Or Mage criminals? Would you prefer they be executed as well? Tranquility is a stay from capital punishment its an appeasement to mages, not to mention the Tranquil to me? are still people.
 
And i'd say this, This is the first rebellion in near on a thousand years.
 
The Circle will prevented this for nearly a Millenia, You expect me to espouse it for failing when it in fact didn't? Mages forcing the system to fail isn't the system failing.

It's hardly a mere three. How about all the apostates? The maleficarum? Hell, in dao your introduction I the circle (if you don't choose mage as your class) is a circle uprising.

My point that it is a broken system stands. If your system for control leads to the precise opposite, then it simply does not work.

[Mistic]

Don't forget that the chantry openly supported hunting and killing all mages after defeat of Tevinter. Its was only after that they found out they cannot defeat the blights or other disasters without mages they decided to form the circles. That's right, southern thedas FAILED to stop the blight, completely and utterly defeated by it. Tevinter knowledge of blood helped to create the the wardens who first appeared in Tevinter and started spreading, the strongest Tevinter Magisters turned the tide of battle and many mages from all over southern Thedas joined the fray and the blight finally defeated on plains of Nevarra, in front of chantry's very eyes. 

 

The chantry wanted mages dead until they proved themselves useful and saved the world from total annihilation.

 

Wait, which Blight are you talking about? I think you're mixing the First and the Second.

[wcholcombe]

No even close. A student can leave a prep school and not got back and they will not be hunted down and killed. They aren't flogged in front of the student body for small infraction real or imagined. They aren't lobotomized if they are unruly or to weak. They are protected by laws that are actually up held and if someone does break the law the person breaking them are punished not the kid. These two system are completely different. Kids are allowed to keep in contact with their families not just rich kids who parents who can bribe the right people.

 

The Circle system as it is allows the abuses that happen to continue with not repercussion for the abusers. Also if you are told everyday that you are evil by everyone in the system that you are sin and curse that is a form of torture. 

 

If you want to believe it or not it is a form of torture that needs to be changed.

Really?  Are you familiar with the practice in the sports academies of completely not allowing contact between parents and kids in the academies?  Granted some of these are more extreme than others, but it is common.  Some prep academies explicitly only allow contact with parents during holidays, it was far more common in the past, but some academies still maintain these rules.  Plus, the academies remain open on holidays because not all parents bother to pick up their children at christmas break or such. 

 

I have missed public floggings being the norm in circles?  Right of tranquility I am not debating, because I have yet to be presented with an ingame alternative, and no having a mage go in with the apprentice doesn't work, because I imagine someone else would have thought to do that if it was that easy. 

 

In a properly administered circle as in DAO and not the craziness of DA2, punishments seem to be administered much better.

 

Again I don't deny there are ambusive templars who need to be removed from the entire situation, but I am not condemning the entire institution because of the abuses of power of some.  We might as well get rid of police and government if that is your argument as corruption and abuse of power is found often in both.

[thetinyevil]

Agree with the basic premise or not, there is a great deal of generosity inherent in the way the Circles are run.

They could be run considerably more cheaply. No expensive libraries, no expensive laboratories, no expensive furnishings, no expensive supplies, no expensive personal wardrobe or staff components, a vastly reduced need for lyrium since it would only be used for enchanting, the list goes on and on.

So no, not generosity for the containment. Generosity for making that containment more pleasant and mentally stimulating than the majority of the continent could ever hope to enjoy.

For the mages to useful when they are called upon they need those things. So it is not so much for the mages' comfort as it for the security of Thedus. I'm sure if the books and labs weren't needed the mages would probably live an extremely spartan life style.

[KainD]

The fact that they were educated and in a position to want to secede is a result of the Chantry's generosity. And,frankly, just because party A is generous doesn't mean party B will be grateful.

 

When you are being generous to someone doesn't meant that they owe you anything. It was your action of being generous, that is your decision, your response-ability, and if you are not happy with results there is no one to blame but yourself.  

[The Elder King]

David Gaider pointed it out officially in an interview. In Anderfels Warriors from all over thedas gathered, with help of Tevinter knowledge of blood that it holds power plus ancient knowledge of Arlathan provided by the elves the first grey wardens were formed.
 
In the early years of the Divine Age, the Chantry was newly established in Orlais and the use of magic, though illegal, was rampant and unchecked. The Inquisition was a group who rose up to defend the people against the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take, blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics. After the first Blight, the Chantry recognized the mages’ value in helping protect humanity and so sought a better solution.
 
In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry. The mage hunters switched their focus from hunting to guarding mages and established the Templar Order as the wardens for the newly created Circle of Magi. The senior members of the Inquisition became the Seekers of Truth, overseers of the templars and special agents of the Divine.
 
http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html
http://dragonage.wik...Nevarran_Accord
 
Before the ending of first blight mages of southern thedas were hunted like animals, corrupt or no. Magic was forbidden.

You are confusing the events. The Chantry wasn't formed during the First Blight. Andraste started her rebellion AFTER the end of the first Blight.
WoT already changed the Inqusition's role. They weren't focused on mage hunting, but on restoring order, and they judged people for their crimes, regardless if they were mages or not.

[The Elder King]

Wait, which Blight are you talking about? I think you're mixing the First and the Second.

She is.

[Lulupab]

What on earth are you saying? The Chantry didn't exist during the first Blight. Andraste wasn't alive during the First Blight.

 

Not during the first blight. I was talking about last years of first blight and after its ending. It lasted for 250 years, remember?

 

I realized chantry didn't see it per se but the only reason mages are not killed is because they are useful not because Chantry is merciful.

[wcholcombe]

David Gaider pointed it out officially in an interview. In Anderfels Warriors from all over thedas gathered, with help of Tevinter knowledge of blood that it holds power plus ancient knowledge of Arlathan provided by the elves the first grey wardens were formed.

 

In the early years of the Divine Age, the Chantry was newly established in Orlais and the use of magic, though illegal, was rampant and unchecked. The Inquisition was a group who rose up to defend the people against the tyranny of magic in whatever form it might take, blood mages, abominations, cultists or heretics. After the first Blight, the Chantry recognized the mages’ value in helping protect humanity and so sought a better solution.

 

In 1:20 Divine, the Nevarran Accord was signed, and the Inquisition agreed to lower its banner and submit to the authority of the Chantry. The mage hunters switched their focus from hunting to guarding mages and established the Templar Order as the wardens for the newly created Circle of Magi. The senior members of the Inquisition became the Seekers of Truth, overseers of the templars and special agents of the Divine.

 

http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html

http://dragonage.wik...Nevarran_Accord

 

Before the ending of first blight mages of southern thedas were hunted like animals, corrupt or no. Magic was forbidden.

again, the only indications in any of that that mages were hunted is in your own head canon.  The inquisition became the templars, but again, from WoT the Inquisition protected mages as much as they hunted those that needed it.

[thetinyevil]

It's hardly a mere three. How about all the apostates? The maleficarum? Hell, in dao your introduction I the circle (if you don't choose mage as your class) is a circle uprising.

My point that it is a broken system stands. If your system for control leads to the precise opposite, then it simply does not work.

Don't forget the Fraternities that wanted to separate from the Chantry. That is thousands of mages right there.

[Hellion Rex]

Not during the first blight. I was talking about last years of first blight and after its ending. It lasted for 250 years, remember?

 

I realized chantry didn't see it per se but the only reason mages are not killed is because they are useful not because Chantry is merciful.

Um, no it didn't. It lasted 192 years.

-395 Ancient --- -203 Ancient

[Dean_the_Young]

To your first, that is not a permanent solution, meant only to last until the contagion has run its course. 

 

 

The technical term would be indefinite: it will last until the contagion has run its course, however long it takes.

 

Leper colonies were a thing, you know. Multi-generational quarantine communities existed. It was considered kinder than, well, putting them all to the sword.

 

 

 

You may say this is why the Circle's exist, and I agree to an extent as young and untrained mages really are a danger to themselves and to others, but after they're trained and can control their powers, all the Circle's ultimately do is take away their rights and freedoms based on what might happen because of what they are and not based on who they are or what they've done. 

 

 

 

What rights and freedoms does everyone in Thedas claim?

[Master Warder Z_]

It's hardly a mere three. How about all the apostates? The maleficarum? Hell, in dao your introduction I the circle (if you don't choose mage as your class) is a circle uprising.

My point that it is a broken system stands. If your system for control leads to the precise opposite, then it simply does not work.

 

Those outside the circle are a symptom of its failing? And Uldred and his minority if you even wish to consider that in truth a rebellion, was done so because the Circle failed to align with Loghain and Uldred was forced to attempt to seize it by force, an attempt which failed by the way, the Libertarians in this instance were little more then a cats paw for Loghain. Their politics may argue for Circle Antomy but the mere fact they had to instigate it by force promotes the notion that the majority of the mages turned against the "rebellion".

 

And The system is to be responsible now for third party meddling? Do you think Uldred would have led his revolt if Loghain had not prompted the Circle Align with his faction? Your instance upon the Circle being a failure seems to be more mired in belief then actual occurrence given that, Rebellions within DA of the circle have occurred only with the assistance of extenuating circumstance.

[The Elder King]

Not during the first blight. I was talking about last years of first blight and after its ending. It lasted for 250 years, remember?

According to the wikia (http://dragonage.wik...ki/First_Blight) the FB lasted until -203 Ancient. According to the wikia, Andraste was born in -203 Ancient and the rebellion obviously started later.
Furthermore, the Chantry wasn't formed rigt after Andraste's death, so there's no way the Chantry operated already during the First Blight.

[wcholcombe]

Andraste was born the year the 1st blight ended.

[Hellion Rex]

Andraste was born the year the 1st blight ended.

First OGB?

[The Elder King]

To add, Drakon was alive during -15 Ancient, near two centuries after the Firdt Blight ended, and he was throne who rise the Chantry in power.

[wcholcombe]

Don't forget the Fraternities that wanted to separate from the Chantry. That is thousands of mages right there.

I would actually be surprised if there were  1000 mages in all the Chantry circles. We don't actually know.  We know there were only hundreds at the andoral's reach.