8640 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

I never used real world religions.  I have been saying for 3 posts now that I am not bringing real world religions into this-just real world examples of how ignorant people react to things they don't understand.

 

Except even Asunder addresses that this is what the Chantry has preached to the Andrastian people: "Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile. He imagined the Divine reading that. Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different? In three days the templar host would march on Andoral’s Reach. With any luck, by the time he returned victorious the Chantry would have come to its senses and chosen a new Divine... one that would be eager to reach a new Accord with the seekers, plac­ing the power much more firmly where it belonged."

 

I don't believe in locking them up either, but if there was a way to train a thunderstorm off the coast of africa so that it didn't bring a 25 ft storm surge to my town, I would like to train it.

 

I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the solution.

 

The link I posted is info pulled directly from the Dragon age table top RPG book, unless that is somehow not considered lore for some reason?

The point was that Chasind kill mages and subject them to the harrowing the same as the circle does in some cases.  Plus, apprentices are basically slaves who are taught very little.

 

From what you provided, apprentices follow in the footsteps of the shamans, and their treatment depends on the shaman in question. The respective mage can be killed during the test of spirits. However, since this discussion was initially broached because I was pointed out that the Chantry's teachings about mages are directly responsible for how Andrastians view them, I think my cited example from Asunder already addresses that issue.

[AresKeith]

But it is true. They are under constant emotional  and psychological strain, more so than what most other people are put under, and it could be counted as a form of torture. Not only that they are told they are a curse and a sin, that is going to have some serious ramification on a person mental and emotional health.

 

They are told it's a blessing and a curse (which is true), not that they are a curse and a sin

[thetinyevil]

I will agree with that. I am curious if the darkness that Cole senses in Lambert has a bigger meaning or role to play.  It is entirely possible though unlikely that the black divine has got his blood magic mojo working on Lambert to bring about the destruction of the Chantry circle system in order to weaken the rest of Thedas.

 

Hey I said it was unlikely.....

Not really that unlikely really. If you consider how far some of the Magisters have been shown to go for power i.e. Fenris. I know that his life meant little to Danaruis but he did invest a **** tone of gold into a project that might not work. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I can't tell if you are being purposefully obtuse or not...

I brought up apostates referring to this in chantry controlled areas, those who are choosing to live outside the circle. Not those in, say, Rivain. There is a reason they start out of our escape the circle. So, yes it's endemic.

I brought up the Calenhad Lake Circle because regardless of Uldred's personal motivations, he got the others on board with promises of increased freedom.

I think I've made a fair case of the fact that they are far from the only mages who are displeased with the current arrangement.

 

 

And i was maintaining that the majority of Apostates are born outside of the circle, them being so isn't an intrinsic failing of said institution anymore then mages failing their harrowing and being slain for it. 

 

He got those on board already in his way of thinking if you think that's an accomplishment that is your prerogative.

 

And yet even in Asunder, After Kirkwall, The Moderates, Loyalists and Isolationists still were against Fiona petitioning for an Autonomous Circle, Strange isn't it? 

[renfrees]

Depending on how long Lambert was in control, it looks like he was in charge for the past decade, which, both sides have to admit, was an absolute travesty for Mage-Templar relations.

And where Lambert had came from? Who was his closest friend before he became Lord Seeker? I'm not really implying any conspiracy right now, but the question remains - where were the Seekers?

[Master Warder Z_]

And where Lambert had came from? Who was his closest friend before he became Lord Seeker? I'm not really implying any conspiracy right now, but the question remains - where were the Seekers?

 

It really all depends upon when Lambert assumed power then, Hopefully this will be clarified at some point.

[thetinyevil]

They are told it's a blessing and a curse (which is true), not that they are a curse and a sin

Few remember that it is a blessing and a curse. I have seen it referred to as a curse and mages a sin then anything else. Actually I only ever heard on templar say it was a blessing and a curse and that was Gregoir, whom I have no love for.

[wcholcombe]

Except even Asunder addresses that this is what the Chantry has preached to the Andrastian people: "Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile. He imagined the Divine reading that. Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different? In three days the templar host would march on Andoral’s Reach. With any luck, by the time he returned victorious the Chantry would have come to its senses and chosen a new Divine... one that would be eager to reach a new Accord with the seekers, plac­ing the power much more firmly where it belonged."

 

 

I don't think the Chantry controlled Circles are the solution.

 

 

From what you provided, apprentices follow in the footsteps of the shamans, and their treatment depends on the shaman in question. The respective mage can be killed during the test of spirits. However, since this discussion was initially broached because I was pointed out that the Chantry's teachings about mages are directly responsible for how Andrastians view them, I think my cited example from Asunder already addresses that issue.

Not that I think Lambert is the best source, but ok I will play your game:

"Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different? "  Doesn't translate in any way shape or form into saying the Chantry has been promoting its faithful to go out and kill mages.  I don't get why this is so difficult for you to grasp Lob.  You are typically a very broad minded poster.  Saying that mages should be feared and contained does not equate to a revered mother preaching from the chantry to go kill mages.

 

Ignorant uneducated people react horribly to things they don't understand and are extremely likely to blame someone else when something bad happens to them.  Its no different than sailors and their stupid belief about someone being a jonah and throwing them overboard.

[Master Warder Z_]

Few remember that it is a blessing and a curse. I have seen it referred to as a curse and mages a sin then anything else. Actually I only ever heard on templar say it was a blessing and a curse and that was Gregoir, whom I have no love for.

 

And yet it is written in the very verses of the Prophet, By the very Institution some maintain despises Mage and Magic both.

 

Strange isn't it?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The words World of Thedas uses to describes the Chantry's position on magic is "a terrible gift."

[AresKeith]

Few remember that it is a blessing and a curse. I have seen it referred to as a curse and mages a sin then anything else. Actually I only ever heard on templar say it was a blessing and a curse and that was Gregoir, whom I have no love for.

 

The phrases "curse and a sin" is a dialogue option the Warden can use when talking to a tranquil at Ostegar

[thetinyevil]

And yet it is written in the very verses of the Prophet, By the very Institution some maintain despises Mage and Magic both.

 

Strange isn't it?

Not really since most people like to pick out curtain verses that state mages are monster.

[Master Warder Z_]

The words World of Thedas uses to describes the Chantry's position on magic is "a terrible gift."

 

I really do need to reread that tome on a daily basis it seems, i always seem to leave out bits and pieces even when Quoting it.

[Cat Lance]

And i was maintaining that the majority of Apostates are born outside of the circle, them being so isn't an intrinsic failing of said institution anymore then mages failing their harrowing and being slain for it. 
 
He got those on board already in his way of thinking if you think that's an accomplishment that is your prerogative.
 
And yet even in Asunder, After Kirkwall, The Moderates, Loyalists and Isolationists still were against Fiona petitioning for an Autonomous Circle, Strange isn't it?

Technically most all mages are born outside the circle, those that remain so after they or others discover their powers do so because they do not want to be captives of the circle.

An accomplishment? You live on a farm yes? To have so much straw? -- It is a statement. They wanted their freedom. End of point.

I did not say that every single mage wanted out. I also feel that the system should not be abolished, merely revised. Further, when a group is willing to rise up in rebellion for freedom, it's a air extrapolation that they are lacking it.

[thetinyevil]

Not that I think Lambert is the best source, but ok I will play your game:

"Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different? "  Doesn't translate in any way shape or form into saying the Chantry has been promoting its faithful to go out and kill mages.  I don't get why this is so difficult for you to grasp Lob.  You are typically a very broad minded poster.  Saying that mages should be feared and contained does not equate to a revered mother preaching from the chantry to go kill mages.

 

Ignorant uneducated people react horribly to things they don't understand and are extremely likely to blame someone else when something bad happens to them.  Its no different than sailors and their stupid belief about someone being a jonah and throwing them overboard.

If they can't be contained that they need to be killed. Which is how most people will see it.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not really since most people like to pick out curtain verses that state mages are monster.

 

Or it could indicate Chantry stance on Magic given that the Canticles are considered Holy Scripture of the faith.

[Grieving Natashina]

Drug addicts on one side...

 

Angry mages on the other...

 

Okay, who wants a cup of coffee?  I think I need my second one.

 

[wcholcombe]

Not really since most people like to pick out curtain verses that state mages are monster.

That would say more about the individual than the actual organization wouldn't it.

 

I would fully expect Meredith to concentrate on it with what her childhood exposed her to and what magic cost her.

Gregoire on the other hand has a far more enlightened view on it regardless of what some on here think of him.

[TEWR]

Not that I think Lambert is the best source, but ok I will play your game:

"Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different? "  Doesn't translate in any way shape or form into saying the Chantry has been promoting its faithful to go out and kill mages.  I don't get why this is so difficult for you to grasp Lob.  You are typically a very broad minded poster.  Saying that mages should be feared and contained does not equate to a revered mother preaching from the chantry to go kill mages.

 

Ignorant uneducated people react horribly to things they don't understand and are extremely likely to blame someone else when something bad happens to them.  Its no different than sailors and their stupid belief about someone being a jonah and throwing them overboard.

 

In a broad sense, the Chantry can be cast some of the blame. While they're not actively inciting the people to do such (from what we've seen. We can't rule out that it doesn't happen sometimes) the proclamations on how magic is to be feared and contained will inevitably lead to hatred for things they don't understand, as you pointed out.

 

It's only natural.

 

In that sense, saying the Chantry is partially at fault is undeniably fair. As they shoulder the responsibility of keeping the mages contained, they bear the burden of promoting an understanding of magic to the populus so that people will act rationally. Citing and preaching dogma, even without the addition of "Go forth and kill, ye faithful!", while doing nothing else is incredibly irresponsible and woefully naive.

 

People only have a barebones grasp of why magic should be feared. That's not enough.

[Dean_the_Young]

Very bad case point and a very poor presidence to rely upon.

 

Case in point being you have many other examples of Slavery being done away with through legislation, not at the point of a rifle.

 

France illegalized Slavery after the Monarchy purchased all in the period between 1831-1835 when both the Greater English islands and France agreed to outlaw slavery through their respective provinces. You could argue you are merely defending a Nation that decided self governance should suffer under the hand of authoritative federal rule. And not overly anything indicative of that situation in so far as "violence" being necessary.

 

To remove the Institution.

 

Plus there's the even more important point that the Civil War was a political conflict in which slavery played a part, rather than being a conflict over slavery and waged to end it. Had the South not seceeded, or been brought to heel very quickly as it nearly was, Lincoln almost certainly would not have pushed the Emancipation Proclamation and slavery would have remained constitutional far longer.

 

The American Civil War is also a far greater example of a crushing of a violent rebellion pursued to secure and advance prized rights (states rights and the right to hold slaves) than it is an example of rights being won through insurrection. It's pretty important to note that the Civil War didn't even involve a meaningful slave rebellion.

[Hellion Rex]

Drug addicts on one side...

 

Angry mages on the other...

 

Okay, who wants a cup of coffee?  I think I need my second one.

 

I think we all need to go out and get some drinks.

[Dean_the_Young]

But it is true. They are under constant emotional  and psychological strain, more so than what most other people are put under, and it could be counted as a form of torture. Not only that they are told they are a curse and a sin, that is going to have some serious ramification on a person mental and emotional health.

 

If this is what you consider torture, no wonder so many Americans were so willing to accept it.
 

[Master Warder Z_]

Technically most all mages are born outside the circle, those that remain so after they or others discover their powers do so because they do not want to be captives of the circle.

An accomplishment? You live on a farm yes? To have so much straw? -- It is a statement. They wanted their freedom. End of point.

I did not say that every single mage wanted out. I also feel that the system should not be abolished, merely revised. Further, when a group is willing to rise up in rebellion for freedom, it's a air extrapolation that they are lacking it.

 

I didn't deny this point, In so far as Most mages are born outside of it. but given how you were portraying you'r argument you can see the need for me to point out that Hedge witches and Apostates for the most part were never even inducted into the Circle, they have no experience with the concept.

 

Yeah the Libertarians that followed Uldred supported his way of thinking, Shocking isn't it? If you ever read the Codex's "promises of Pride" However you will note the correspondence between those followers and the rest of the senior mages of that circle and its evident that his minority, was in fact a minority.

 

Lacking? The Mages in question tend to be lacking only what their greed or vanity demands, There isn't a intention for extrapolation of a greater context. When those "groups" consist of more then a few extremists that also wouldn't overly mind a removal of oversight upon mages entirely we may actually have a conclusive motivation to examine.

[Grieving Natashina]

@Dean While it is true that there wasn't slave rebellions during the US Civil War, in leading up to the Civil War there was plenty of slave rebellions starting in 1739.  I normally stay out of the RL stuff, but I had to point this out:

 

http://www.pbs.org/w...n-slaves-rebel/

 

The latest one was in 1831.  That was ~30 years before the start of the Civil War, but slaves rebelled at least four times prior to that.    I'm going to get coffee, but please check out the link.

[Grieving Natashina]

I think we all need to go out and get some drinks.

I can't use a like on this, but I agree.  It's too early for booze, but I'll pick up the tab.