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[renfrees]

Have you ever tried a Berseker Reaver in DA2?

Berserker/Reaver/2H/Vanguard - and let the fun begin. Mages are boring after that.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Hardly.  TKS is more about "kill all the mages everywhere and let the Maker sort them out" versus anything reasonable that Z, MisterJB and others have come up with.

 

Edit: ninja'd by JB  

 

What no im kill all mages everywhere to get possibility creating stable and profitable society for my own profit and move humans forward instead have to healing wounds after disasters sponsored by mages. And yep my solution is reasonable very reasonable because you know it will work you know why? because dead mage won't harm anyone or destroy anything

 

As far my solution is best solution when someone want protect world when it comes about dangers that magic/mages present and only certain solution.   

[Ryzaki]

Have you ever tried a Berseker Reaver in DA2?

 

I did but realized I was killing things much faster with my assassin/duelist.

 

God rogues are so broken in DA2. Nerf bat needs to hit.

 

Edit: I know this wasn't towards me just being nosy and jumping in the convo

[Master Warder Z_]

I assume you do not want to be jailed? One does not need to experience something negative to know they do not want it. Apostates are well aware of the Circle, they need to hide what they are to remain free, after all.
I certainly didn't find the idea of someone wanting to be free of oppression shocking. Nor the fact that some didn't go along. Of which, no one says it's because they enjoy the status quo.
  The extremists are those like Anders and Uldred, willing to use any means and justify it, the fact that the other mages are not violent doesn't change that in talking to them they are not happy and want change.

The mages are "kept" the fact that Wynne is allowed to accompany the Warden does not change the fact that others are not allowed to even see their families. Nor the fact that this was something she had to gain permission to do. She could not simply decide for herself to head off and go with your Warden.

 

So Freedom Hyperbole, Ignoring some Mages want the Circle or view it as the best possible alternative in the realm and claiming to know the minds of others despite them voicing opinions contrary to how you would wish them portrayed.

 

Well i must say this has become dreadfully boring to me.

 

All anti circle arguments always end up the same, citing the same rubbish, the same pretexts and expecting it to find credence, the only difference here i suppose is, the Accusation of "strawman" that doesn't come my direction much anyway, but i'd argue you certainly are assembling a nice one about Apostates.

 

Yadda oppression, Freedom Herp.

[The Elder King]

I did but realized I was killing things much faster with my assassin/duelist.

God rogues are so broken in DA2. Nerf bat needs to hit.

Edit: I know this wasn't towards me just being nosy and jumping in the convo

I never played rogue, so I woudn't know how Fast it is. I kill enemies really fast as Berseker/Reaver, though it shines after you reach mid-level and beyond.

[Grieving Natashina]

What no im kill all mages everywhere to get possibility creating stable and profitable society for my own profit and move humans forward instead have to healing wounds after disasters sponsored by mages. And yep my solution is reasonable very reasonable because you know it will work you know why? because dead mage won't harm anyone or destroy anything

 

As far my solution is best solution when someone want protect world when it comes about dangers that magic/mages present and only certain solution.   

One problem:  Unless we know were magic comes from, we have no idea how to stop it.  There isn't a greater understanding genetics in Thedas, only a few outdated family trees that the Tevinter used to have.  Therefore, we'd just have to keep killing and killing and killing, with no guarantee that it will end all mages on Thedas.

 

Meanwhile, all that slaughter will weaken the Veil even more than it already is.  And now you are just begging for a sea of Arcane Horrors to show up.

 

Plus, it's you know...magic.  The word in and of itself should mean that the usual rules don't apply.

[Master Warder Z_]

One problem:  Unless we know were magic comes from, we have no idea how to stop it.  There isn't a greater understanding genetics in Thedas, only a few outdated family trees that the Tevinter used to have.  Therefore, we'd just have to keep killing and killing and killing, with no guarantee that it will end all mages on Thedas.

 

Meanwhile, all that slaughter will weaken the Veil even more than it already is.  And now you are just begging for a sea of Arcane Horrors to show up.

 

Plus, it's you know...magic.  The word in and of itself should mean that the usual rules don't apply.

 

Hence why it must be CONTAINED, not killed, not bludgeoned or set or fire or dismembered or anything else your sick mind can think up...Sorry, used to talking to my men.

 

*Sigh* 

[Grieving Natashina]

Hence why it must be CONTAINED, not killed, not bludgeoned or set or fire or dismembered or anything else your sick mind can think up...Sorry, used to talking to my men.

 

*Sigh* 

You're addressing the wrong person.  

[Master Warder Z_]

You're addressing the wrong person.  

 

TKS wouldn't comprehend the words.

 

<_<'' He's like my men in that regard.

[Grieving Natashina]

TKS wouldn't comprehend the words.

 

<_<'' He's like my men in that regard.

And yet you choose to be apart of that Order?  It must be lyrium.

[Cat Lance]

So Freedom Hyperbole, Ignoring some Mages want the Circle or view it as the best possible alternative in the realm and claiming to know the minds of others despite them voicing opinions contrary to how you would wish them portrayed.
 
Well i must say this has become dreadfully boring to me.
 
All anti circle arguments always end up the same, citing the same rubbish, the same pretexts and expecting it to find credence, the only difference here i suppose is, the Accusation of "strawman" that doesn't come my direction much anyway, but i'd argue you certainly are assembling a nice one about Apostates.
 
Yadda oppression, Freedom Herp.

You keep saying the same things... I've not called for an abolition of the Circles. I've called for revision to make them work.

I have pointed out the issues of treatment and lack of freedom because these are the things that have caused issues. The C/T System is in place ostensibly to protect both mages and mundane folk. However, do to the current system mages are turning to demons and blood magic to escape or engender change. This the current system is creating the very problems it was established to inhibit.

If it does not work, it needs to be fixed. A revised C/T System that had the templars working with and supporting the mages instead of caging and hunting them would solve the issues.

[TheKomandorShepard]

One problem:  Unless we know were magic comes from, we have no idea how to stop it.  There isn't a greater understanding genetics in Thedas, only a few outdated family trees that the Tevinter used to have.  Therefore, we'd just have to keep killing and killing and killing, with no guarantee that it will end all mages on Thedas.

 

Meanwhile, all that slaughter will weaken the Veil even more than it already is.  And now you are just begging for a sea of Arcane Horrors to show up.

 

Plus, it's you know...magic.  The word in and of itself should mean that the usual rules don't apply.

 

And as i said many many times you can kill new born mages most of them is already in circles because they were spoted with proper system and templars focusing on hunting mages efficiency will be much bigger.

 

And once again thedas isn't rainbow land it is dark world war and carnage are common even blight takes huge amount of peoples in very brutal way didn't managed torn veil so death of tiny minority will cause that please if that was in case thedas would be invaded by demons thousands of years ago.Second in inq we will find how fix veil otherwise well end of the world so pretty much we can always fix veil again. And without mages no one will destroy that with using magic which as we know weakens veil even more. 

[EmissaryofLies]

Lookin' for that good stuff? I got that red dust, baby!

 

I'm your Pusherman.

[Ryzaki]

I never played rogue, so I woudn't know how Fast it is. I kill enemies really fast as Berseker/Reaver, though it shines after you reach mid-level and beyond.

 

Rogues are killing machines. I would be on the boss everyone else on the adds and I'd finish first...ridiculous.

[MisterJB]

You keep saying the same things... I've not called for an abolition of the Circles. I've called for revision to make them work.

I have pointed out the issues of treatment and lack of freedom because these are the things that have caused issues. The C/T System is in place ostensibly to protect both mages and mundane folk. However, do to the current system mages are turning to demons and blood magic to escape or engender change. This the current system is creating the very problems it was established to inhibit.

If it does not work, it needs to be fixed. A revised C/T System that had the templars working with and supporting the mages instead of caging and hunting them would solve the issues.

You are making the assumption that these mages who do turn to demons and blood magic would not do the same regardless of how the system was set up. During the rebellion in Ferelden, one can find no references to abuses, only to the "scornful eyes" of the Templars which implies that it was the simple fact that the Templars remained watchful, which they must, that prompted the violence. Another example is Anders who makes no secret of his wish for mages to be granted equal rights and freedoms plus the murder of every single Templar and dismantlement of the Order.

Evidently, these mages are not interested in "working with the Templars" and the systems they propose would result in less security and freedom to normal people.

 

Of course, this does not apply to all mages. Alain is one such mage who did turn to blood magic due to abuses but, bottom line, the simple presence of discontentment does not, necessarely, indicate a problem within the system itself. People are always discontent, it is in our nature.

[Grieving Natashina]

Lookin' for that good stuff? I got that red dust, baby!

 

I'm your Pusherman.

You and Steppenwolf, right?  

[thetinyevil]

You are making the assumption that these mages who do turn to demons and blood magic would not do the same regardless of how the system was set up. During the rebellion in Ferelden, one can find no references to abuses, only to the "scornful eyes" of the Templars which implies that it was the simple fact that the Templars remained watchful, which they must, that prompted the violence. Another example is Anders who makes no secret of his wish for mages to be granted equal rights and freedoms plus the murder of every single Templar and dismantlement of the Order.

Evidently, these mages are not interested in "working with the Templars" and the systems they propose would result in less security and freedom to normal people.

 

Of course, this does not apply to all mages. Alain is one such mage who did turn to blood magic due to abuses but, bottom line, the simple presence of discontentment does not, necessarely, indicate a problem within the system itself. People are always discontent, it is in our nature.

Just the skeletons left in the dungeon of mages left to die. Oh and the massive blood stains on the floors and walls of the dungeon.

 

Anders doesn't want to murder of every single templar, the dismantling of the order maybe, but not the death of every templar. Remember he did try for six years peacefully but he was laughed at or ignored.

 

Well Rhys and Evangeline disprove that mages don't want to work with the templars. There are many, such a Wynne and Irving that do. Rhys as well. And this would not mean less security or freedom for normal people.

 

There was probably more than just Alain driven to blood magic by abuse. I'm surprised you even mentioned that. Really I am.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Just the skeletons left in the dungeon of mages left to die. Oh and the massive blood stains on the floors and walls of the dungeon.

 

Anders doesn't want to murder of every single templar, the dismantling of the order maybe, but not the death of every templar. Remember he did try for six years peacefully but he was laughed at or ignored.

 

Well Rhys and Evangeline disprove that mages don't want to work with the templars. There are many, such a Wynne and Irving that do. Rhys as well. And this would not mean less security or freedom for normal people.

 

There was probably more than just Alain driven to blood magic by abuse. I'm surprised you even mentioned that. Really I am.

Well, there was that whole "Every one of them will feel Justice's burn." line he says after killing Alrik. 

[MisterJB]

thetinyevil: And I am unsurprised that you felt the need to give us an example of a Templar and a mage working together when I had already said that it is not all mages who do not wish to work with the Templars.

 

Never mind that Rhys and Evangeline do not qualify as a mage and a Templar working together to improve the Circle since their efforts were directed towards abolishing it.

[Cat Lance]

You are making the assumption that these mages who do turn to demons and blood magic would not do the same regardless of how the system was set up. During the rebellion in Ferelden, one can find no references to abuses, only to the "scornful eyes" of the Templars which implies that it was the simple fact that the Templars remained watchful, which they must, that prompted the violence. Another example is Anders who makes no secret of his wish for mages to be granted equal rights and freedoms plus the murder of every single Templar and dismantlement of the Order.
Evidently, these mages are not interested in "working with the Templars" and the systems they propose would result in less security and freedom to normal people.
 
Of course, this does not apply to all mages. Alain is one such mage who did turn to blood magic due to abuses but, bottom line, the simple presence of discontentment does not, necessarely, indicate a problem within the system itself. People are always discontent, it is in our nature.

i am sure there is some of both in there. I make no sweeping claims. There are always exceptions.

I also think that any new or revised system would have it's growing pains. However, *I* do not advocate suddenly just abolishing any system altogether. I think it will always require some sort of system, but I do not see locking them physically away or locking their souls away(Tranquility) as the answer.

Also, when folk are simply being discontent, they grumble or whine, hell, some will never steep past that in a truly horrible situation. When folk actually rise up to free themselves... it's generally an indication that things are worse. The templates need not be beating the mages. The fact that they keep them locked away and hold Tranquility over them or death, is enough.

[thetinyevil]

thetinyevil: And I am unsurprised that you felt the need to give us an example of a Templar and a mage working together when I had already said that it is not all mages who do not wish to work with the Templars.

 

Never mind that Rhys and Evangeline do not qualify as a mage and a Templar working together to improve the Circle since their efforts were directed towards abolishing it.

One templar and one mage. And they didn't want to abolish the Circle, they wanted to take it out of Chantry oversight. Big different it was the Seekers and other templars who drove the mages out of the Circle. And you said mages and templars don't work together so I gave an example. Even if I really don't believe myself it is in the lore. 

 

I think the lion's share of templars would reather kill mages than bother bring them in doesn't mean that there are few who aren't amoral POS's. And since you claim all mages will turn to blood magic at the drop of a hat then I can claim all templars will kill an adult apostate rather than bring them in. After all they are wild mages and they might give the tame ones ideas.

 

Besides with Evangeline and Rhys could probably make a Circle that actually works instead of creating the problems it's trying to prevent.

[MisterJB]

Also, when folk are simply being discontent, they grumble or whine, hell, some will never steep past that in a truly horrible situation. When folk actually rise up to free themselves... it's generally an indication that things are worse. The templates need not be beating the mages. The fact that they keep them locked away and hold Tranquility over them or death, is enough.

Or that we're facing extremists. I don't deny there are some valid complaints from the mages side but if you are going to turn to demons to leave a luxurious tower where your every material need is attended to and the most "abuse" you suffer is being watched, I find it very difficult to grant your cause credibility. The fact that the Templars can punish mages, with the death penalty in the worst cases, is no different from the peasants in the outside world who are often hanged for much smaller offences.

 

And, of course, I don't not believe any system that doesn't separate mages from the normal population will ever be efficient. Hence my earlier argument of how the systems often proposed by these mages are unnaceptable.

[thetinyevil]

Well, there was that whole "Every one of them will feel Justice's burn." line he says after killing Alrik. 

And that is Justice not really Anders. And he was understandably pissed off. After Alrik is the one who turned his first lover into a meat puppet whom he had to kill to put out of his misery.

[Cat Lance]

Or that we're facing extremists. I don't deny there are some valid complaints from the mages side but if you are going to turn to demons to leave a luxurious tower where your every material need is attended to and the most "abuse" you suffer is being watched, I find it very difficult to grant your cause credibility. The fact that the Templars can punish mages, with the death penalty in the worst cases, is no different from the peasants in the outside world who are often hanged for much smaller offences.
 
And, of course, I don't not believe any system that doesn't separate mages from the normal population will ever be efficient. Hence my earlier argument of how the systems often proposed by these mages are unnaceptable.

Would you honestly be okay living in the mages' situation?

Well, I can't recall endorsing any of these mages specific ideas about new orders.

[Aimi]

Also, when folk are simply being discontent, they grumble or whine, hell, some will never steep past that in a truly horrible situation. When folk actually rise up to free themselves... it's generally an indication that things are worse. The templates need not be beating the mages. The fact that they keep them locked away and hold Tranquility over them or death, is enough.

Historically, one often sees rebellions or attempted revolutions in rather different circumstances. They often follow on periods when a repressive state has relaxed its control. This is what happened in multiple French revolutions, in the Prussian part of the Revolutions of 1848, and in the revolutions that ended the Soviet Union and its empire in Eastern Europe in 1989-91.

After all, if the state were being so repressive as you claim, then it would have been able to crush an uprising relatively easily, no?

Obviously, this isn't always the case. Violent uprisings occur in response to violent crackdowns or other dire circumstances as well. My point is more that revolutionary activity in and of itself is no indicator of how 'bad' things are for the revolutionaries.